So what are YOUR ideas to revive Limerick?

liammur

zulutango wrote: »

Agree with your first point, but the second one (about parking) is a red herring. There's loads of multi-storey car parks in the city centre where you could park. If we want the city to thrive again, there's a few things that need to be addressed. The main one is that we have a suburban population, and whether we like it or not, they are going to want to shop in the suburbs for the most part. There's no getting around that, no matter what the parking conditions are like in the city centre. If we try and get people living in or near the city again, then it will begin to thrive again.

Everything we do in developing our city centre must be to make it an attractive place to live, i.e. build parks, playgorunds, cycle lanes, clean the streets frequently, make the city more aesthetically pleasing, incentivise evening activities. The retail sector and vibrancy of the city will naturally follow once we make those efforts.

Suburban population is also a red herring, because if you think about, every city does. It's nothing more than a get out of jail card for useless politicians to blame the crescent etc. Every city has big retail centres, but they also have city centres. As they say 'it's the economy stupid' and we have the weakest local economy in the country.

mikemac1

Galway has boat tours on the Corrib
Dublin has Liffey tours and take you out into the bay
Belfast will take you out into the harbour, show you the old shipyards
I've done the boat tour in Cork, take you out and tell you history of Spike Island, see the pretty houses in Cobh, etc

I googled for Limerick, found one for the estuary out in the county but nothing in the city

Now the Shannon is tidal so I don't know what's possible or not but I would have thought this would be an idea


edit, though looking at the photo it might not be possible, I just don't know

Poxyshamrock

There was a boat tour a couple of years back. Ended up getting stuck on rocks or mud down by Barrington's.

Romain07

The retail outlets will not regenerate the City. We need some kind of production in the surrounding areas to generate employment thus more money circulating in Limerick. Brighten up the City Center area by planting trees on O'Connell St and lets make Limerick a more attractive place to be. We have a clean City Center ( much cleaner than Dublin or Cork and easily cleaner than Galway) so there are positives there. It should be forbidden to have empty windows and if they are boarded up the owners should be obliged to decorate the fronts. The Corporation should oblige all Property owners to keep their frontage clean and maintained. We should outlaw the use of florescent signs and come up with another system of lighting businesses. Even these small measures could stimulate local business by obliging the Corporation and local business owners to give preferential treatment to local companies for all the small contracts.

zulutango

liammur wrote: »

Suburban population is also a red herring, because if you think about, every city does. It's nothing more than a get out of jail card for useless politicians to blame the crescent etc. Every city has big retail centres, but they also have city centres. As they say 'it's the economy stupid' and we have the weakest local economy in the country.

Sorry, Liam, that's not true. Nearly half of Limerick's population lives in the suburbs (Raheen, Castletroy, Annacotty, etc). And a huge chunk of the other half, the ones who live in the environs of the city, are from the lower socio-economic demographic. This has a huge effect on the vibrancy and vitality of the city centre. It's not like this in other Irish cities.

Kess73

zulutango wrote: »

Sorry, Liam, that's not true. Nearly half of Limerick's population lives in the suburbs (Raheen, Castletroy, Annacotty, etc). And a huge chunk of the other half, the ones who live in the environs of the city, are from the lower socio-economic demographic. This has a huge effect on the vibrancy and vitality of the city centre. It's not like this in other Irish cities.

Cork?

zulutango

mikemac1 wrote: »

Galway has boat tours on the Corrib
Dublin has Liffey tours and take you out into the bay
Belfast will take you out into the harbour, show you the old shipyards
I've done the boat tour in Cork, take you out and tell you history of Spike Island, see the pretty houses in Cobh, etc

I googled for Limerick, found one for the estuary out in the county but nothing in the city

Now the Shannon is tidal so I don't know what's possible or not but I would have thought this would be an idea

It would be very difficult to do in Limerick City centre, but not impossible. You'd only be able to operate for about 2 hours before and after high tide (if even that). The time of high tide changes every day so there would be no chance of having any kind of regular schedule.

What might be possible is boat tours upriver of the city. The navigable stretch of water at Plassey is short but it's very picturesque. Another possibility would be the tail race at Ardnacrusha, which is also a very scenic trip.

zulutango

Kess73 wrote: »

Cork?

Nope.

Kess73

zulutango wrote: »

Nope.

So you are saying that Cork does not have a suburban population that in terms of % does not match that of Limerick?

Pumpkinseeds

I really don't think that M&S are the solution to Limericks problems. Its a big assumption to make that they would draw a lot of shoppers to the city centre. I'm in Galway regularly and I usually pop into M&S there. The clothes are exactly the same as what you'd find in Debenhams but a lot more expensive and the groceries are extremely overpriced.

I usually don't buy anything as it's not worth it. My mum used to love their clothes and the last time she was there she didn't bother buying anything either. My point is that it might have been a draw a few years ago, however nowadays people want their money to go further and it won't go very far in M&S. As for creating jobs, it would do, but how long would those jobs last if business doesn't do well?

liammur

Kess73 wrote: »

So you are saying that Cork does not have a suburban population that in terms of % does not match that of Limerick?

Of course you are correct, Cork City's suburbs are far bigger than it's city, same applies to Galway, Dublin etc

2006 census for Cork: the suburbs bring it to 274,000.
2006119,418†274,000 [4]

zulutango

Kess73 wrote: »

So you are saying that Cork does not have a suburban population that in terms of % does not match that of Limerick?

No, not quite. Roughly 50% of the Limerick metro population is suburban, but critically, that 50% are comprised mostly of the AB demographic, and young families. The city centre has large numbers of the C1 demographic, and elderly AB. It's not the only issue, but it's a big one.

zulutango

liammur wrote: »

Of course you are correct, Cork City's suburbs are far bigger than it's city, same applies to Galway, Dublin etc

2006 census for Cork: the suburbs bring it to 274,000.
2006119,418†274,000 [4]

Lies, damned lies and statistics! According to that source, that figure for Metropolitan Cork includes large towns like Ballincollig, Blarney, Carrigaline, Carrigtwohill, Cobh, Crosshaven, Glanmire, Glounthaune, Midleton, Monkstown, Passage West and Ringaskiddy.They are hardly suburbs of the city. You may as well say that Shannon, Ennis, Nenagh and Newcastle West are part of suburban Limerick if you go by that logic.

Galway and Dublin and Cork have far greater numbers in real terms (and I think in percentage of overall population too) of a particular demographic living in their city centres than Limerick has. I think the CSO figures bear this out if anyone cares to check them out.

liammur

zulutango wrote: »

Lies, damned lies and statistics! According to that source, that figure for Metropolitan Cork includes large towns like Ballincollig, Blarney, Carrigaline, Carrigtwohill, Cobh, Crosshaven, Glanmire, Glounthaune, Midleton, Monkstown, Passage West and Ringaskiddy.They are hardly suburbs of the city. You may as well say that Shannon, Ennis, Nenagh and Newcastle West are part of suburban Limerick if you go by that logic.

Galway and Dublin and Cork have far greater numbers in real terms (and I think in percentage of overall population too) of a particular demographic living in their city centres than Limerick has. I think the CSO figures bear this out if anyone cares to check them out.

I don't know Cork too well, but even I know the likes of Glanmire & Ballincollig suburbs. Cork City's population is 120,000, add in the suburbs and it def goes up to 200,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_(city)

I may ask the question in the Cork forum and reply back to you.

Kess73

zulutango wrote: »

No, not quite. Roughly 50% of the Limerick metro population is suburban, but critically, that 50% are comprised mostly of the AB demographic, and young families. The city centre has large numbers of the C1 demographic, and elderly AB. It's not the only issue, but it's a big one.

I could argue similar about Cork using areas like Blackpool, Knocknaheeny, Ballyvolane, Mayfield, Glanmire, Riverstown, Donnybrook, Togher etc.

Then I could start bringing in Bishopstown, Grange , Blackrock etc.


And I have no even touched on areas like Douglas for population numbers.


Very surprised to see you try to discount the likes of Glanmire as being a suburban area of the city when it is only the same distance from Patrick street as the Castletroy/Monaleen area by the Hurlers is from O'Connell Street in Limerick. If you want to try and dismiss Glanmire from the arguement, despite it being linked by adjoining housing estates to the city, then Castletroy could just as easily be dismissed as a town sized area on the outskirts of Limerick.


Cork has a large suburban sprawl much like Limerick does, and it is made of many of the same demographic types as Limerick if taken as a % of the population there.

I would accept points like how Limerick has the highest % of social housing in the country as part of an arguement, but Cork also has a high %.

The reason I mentioned Cork as a reply to one of your earlier posts is because Cork had/has people that addressed many of the problems there in the past that Limerick has now.

There was a determined push to improve the retail and services side of things in the city as well as a proactive approach to rent and rates.

There was an acknowledgement of the need to try and get more people to live in the city centre all year round. This was seen as being very important and rightly so.

There was a push to improve the infrastructure of the city centre and modernise it.

There was a massive push to use the arts as an attraction, and there was no shyness in promoting their city as a hub/place to stay for people who wanted to visit other parts of Munster.

Most of all there was a huge drive to make sure that large companies set up, many of home would be hiring from the younger demographic. Apple, Amazon etc are still hiring in large numbers down there and there are many other examples of similar sized companies that set up shop there and more that are on the way.

Now not everything they tried was a success and there were plenty of failures.


My point about Cork is that there is so much of what they have done over the past 5, 10, 15 years that could be taken and applied to Limerick.

There is no one fix for Limerick. Retail on it's own cannot fix it. People living in the city centre on it's own cannot fix it. But a mix of different options, like Cork has tried and done, would give Limerick a fighting chance at major improvement taking place rather than it just being lip service year after year from people in power. The ordinary person on the street can bring about some improvement, but the massive changes need to be brought about by people at a higher level.

ZombieBride

I have a few nitpicky ones this morning.
1. Benches along the river, and throughout the city. Apart from Thomas Street and the parks, where can you sit that is not a business?
2. That old Dunnes building on Henry Street has been closed since 2008.
3. Weeds in gutters and on walls, and roads. Remove these.
4. Have the graffiti painted over as soon as it's reported.
5. Why can't we have a public gym park like they have in Ballina.

zulutango

Kess73 wrote: »

I could argue similar about Cork using areas like Blackpool, Knocknaheeny, Ballyvolane, Mayfield, Glanmire, Riverstown, Donnybrook, Togher etc.

Then I could start bringing in Bishopstown, Grange , Blackrock etc.

And I have no even touched on areas like Douglas for population numbers.

Very surprised to see you try to discount the likes of Glanmire as being a suburban area of the city when it is only the same distance from Patrick street as the Castletroy/Monaleen area by the Hurlers is from O'Connell Street in Limerick. If you want to try and dismiss Glanmire from the arguement, despite it being linked by adjoining housing estates to the city, then Castletroy could just as easily be dismissed as a town sized area on the outskirts of Limerick.

I just copied and pasted the line from the wiki article that Liammur referenced. I wasn't dismissing the likes of Glanmire, etc. Just making the point that those figures for suburban Cork includes a lot more areas than what we would consider suburban Cork.

Kess73 wrote: »

Cork has a large suburban sprawl much like Limerick does, and it is made of many of the same demographic types as Limerick if taken as a % of the population there.

I would accept points like how Limerick has the highest % of social housing in the country as part of an arguement, but Cork also has a high %.

I don't want to imply that the urban/suburban balance is the crux of Limerick city centre's difficulties. It just shows how a huge chunk of the people with spending power in the region don't live in the city centre. The American's call it 'white flight'. We have something similar in Limerick (Ireland's Detroit!!).

We're talking about a relatively small area so the percentage of suburban versus urban point isn't something that this discussion should hang on (admittedly, I was the one who first mentioned it). It's the real numbers that matter.

Agree with your analysis below. I don't think we differ very much.

Kess73 wrote: »

The reason I mentioned Cork as a reply to one of your earlier posts is because Cork had/has people that addressed many of the problems there in the past that Limerick has now.

There was a determined push to improve the retail and services side of things in the city as well as a proactive approach to rent and rates.

There was an acknowledgement of the need to try and get more people to live in the city centre all year round. This was seen as being very important and rightly so.

There was a push to improve the infrastructure of the city centre and modernise it.

There was a massive push to use the arts as an attraction, and there was no shyness in promoting their city as a hub/place to stay for people who wanted to visit other parts of Munster.

Most of all there was a huge drive to make sure that large companies set up, many of home would be hiring from the younger demographic. Apple, Amazon etc are still hiring in large numbers down there and there are many other examples of similar sized companies that set up shop there and more that are on the way.

Now not everything they tried was a success and there were plenty of failures.

My point about Cork is that there is so much of what they have done over the past 5, 10, 15 years that could be taken and applied to Limerick.

There is no one fix for Limerick. Retail on it's own cannot fix it. People living in the city centre on it's own cannot fix it. But a mix of different options, like Cork has tried and done, would give Limerick a fighting chance at major improvement taking place rather than it just being lip service year after year from people in power. The ordinary person on the street can bring about some improvement, but the massive changes need to be brought about by people at a higher level.

zulutango

ZombieBride wrote: »

I have a few nitpicky ones this morning.
1. Benches along the river, and throughout the city. Apart from Thomas Street and the parks, where can you sit that is not a business? There's a few places, but not many. It would be great if the pedestrianisation plans for O'Connell Street materialised.
2. That old Dunnes building on Henry Street has been closed since 2008. Amazed that there isn't a public debate about this akin to the one we've had recently about the site formerly known as the Opera Centre.
3. Weeds in gutters and on walls, and roads. Remove these.
4. Have the graffiti painted over as soon as it's reported.
5. Why can't we have a public gym park like they have in Ballina.That would be cool alright. There's a tendency in Limerick to not allow such things however. The council sees liability and cost issues in practically everything, possibly because they are the most cash-strapped local authority in the country. Perhaps that will change with the amalgamation in 2014.

my two cents in red above!

liammur

Kess73 wrote: »

I could argue similar about Cork using areas like Blackpool, Knocknaheeny, Ballyvolane, Mayfield, Glanmire, Riverstown, Donnybrook, Togher etc.

Then I could start bringing in Bishopstown, Grange , Blackrock etc.


And I have no even touched on areas like Douglas for population numbers.


Very surprised to see you try to discount the likes of Glanmire as being a suburban area of the city when it is only the same distance from Patrick street as the Castletroy/Monaleen area by the Hurlers is from O'Connell Street in Limerick. If you want to try and dismiss Glanmire from the arguement, despite it being linked by adjoining housing estates to the city, then Castletroy could just as easily be dismissed as a town sized area on the outskirts of Limerick.


Cork has a large suburban sprawl much like Limerick does, and it is made of many of the same demographic types as Limerick if taken as a % of the population there.

I would accept points like how Limerick has the highest % of social housing in the country as part of an arguement, but Cork also has a high %.

The reason I mentioned Cork as a reply to one of your earlier posts is because Cork had/has people that addressed many of the problems there in the past that Limerick has now.

There was a determined push to improve the retail and services side of things in the city as well as a proactive approach to rent and rates.

There was an acknowledgement of the need to try and get more people to live in the city centre all year round. This was seen as being very important and rightly so.

There was a push to improve the infrastructure of the city centre and modernise it.

There was a massive push to use the arts as an attraction, and there was no shyness in promoting their city as a hub/place to stay for people who wanted to visit other parts of Munster.

Most of all there was a huge drive to make sure that large companies set up, many of home would be hiring from the younger demographic. Apple, Amazon etc are still hiring in large numbers down there and there are many other examples of similar sized companies that set up shop there and more that are on the way.

Now not everything they tried was a success and there were plenty of failures.


My point about Cork is that there is so much of what they have done over the past 5, 10, 15 years that could be taken and applied to Limerick.

There is no one fix for Limerick. Retail on it's own cannot fix it. People living in the city centre on it's own cannot fix it. But a mix of different options, like Cork has tried and done, would give Limerick a fighting chance at major improvement taking place rather than it just being lip service year after year from people in power. The ordinary person on the street can bring about some improvement, but the massive changes need to be brought about by people at a higher level.

That's fact.

Limerick's problem is simple : Carrick on Shannon (pop of 2,500) has got more IDA jobs in the last 15 years than all of Limerick city & county.

It's not the crescent, it's not the image, it's not perceived crime - it's no jobs.

liammur

zulutango wrote: »

I just copied and pasted the line from the wiki article that Liammur referenced. I wasn't dismissing the likes of Glanmire, etc. Just making the point that those figures for suburban Cork includes a lot more areas than what we would consider suburban Cork.



I don't want to imply that the urban/suburban balance is the crux of Limerick city centre's difficulties. It just shows how a huge chunk of the people with spending power in the region don't live in the city centre. The American's call it 'white flight'. We have something similar in Limerick (Ireland's Detroit!!).

We're talking about a relatively small area so the percentage of suburban versus urban point isn't something that this discussion should hang on (admittedly, I was the one who first mentioned it). It's the real numbers that matter.

Agree with your analysis below. I don't think we differ very much.

The CSO is certainly far more accurate than the wiki site I checked.
From the CSO website:
The total population in this settlement (Cork city and suburbs) was 198582"

marienbad

liammur wrote: »

That's fact.

Limerick's problem is simple : Carrick on Shannon (pop of 2,500) has got more IDA jobs in the last 15 years than all of Limerick city & county.

It's not the crescent, it's not the image, it's not perceived crime - it's no jobs.

Ann imho there are historic/political reasons for this . Charlie Haughey was shafted by the P'D,s and Dessie O'Malley and thereafter Limerick went from being a safe few seats to just Willy O'Dea and willy never got a vote by bringing in jobs just medical cards.

And for all the great social legislation and such than Kemmy and O'Sullivan etc got involved in they never succeeded on the jobs front.

Future FF governments under Reynolds Ahern etc took from the adage of General Westmorland when advised that a pending piece of legislation would offend the jewish lobby and he reply was ''fcuk 'em they won't vote for us anyway''

The city has been at loggerheads with the party of power for over 30 years and the result of ''fcuk em they won't vote for us anyway'' + local incompetance and county emnity is a case study in how to destroy a marvellous vibrant historic community.

And an appaling indictment of our democracy as well

zulutango

liammur wrote: »

The CSO is certainly far more accurate than the wiki site I checked.
From the CSO website:
The total population in this settlement (Cork city and suburbs) was 198582"

I'm right then

Regardless, the issue isn't so much about the proportion but rather the real numbers living in the city centre in Limerick. They're pretty low, and for the most part are lower socio-economic group.

liammur

zulutango wrote: »

I'm right then

Regardless, the issue isn't so much about the proportion but rather the real numbers living in the city centre in Limerick. They're pretty low, and for the most part are lower socio-economic group.

No, you were completely wrong. Your point has got absolutely nothing to do with anything. We all know Cork has big suburbs, Galway too. Every city in every nation will have suburbs, unless you extend the boundary. You point seems to be basically where is the boundary!

liammur

marienbad wrote: »

Ann imho there are historic/political reasons for this . Charlie Haughey was shafted by the P'D,s and Dessie O'Malley and thereafter Limerick went from being a safe few seats to just Willy O'Dea and willy never got a vote by bringing in jobs just medical cards.

And for all the great social legislation and such than Kemmy and O'Sullivan etc got involved in they never succeeded on the jobs front.

Future FF governments under Reynolds Ahern etc took from the adage of General Westmorland when advised that a pending piece of legislation would offend the jewish lobby and he reply was ''fcuk 'em they won't vote for us anyway''

The city has been at loggerheads with the party of power for over 30 years and the result of ''fcuk em they won't vote for us anyway'' + local incompetance and county emnity is a case study in how to destroy a marvellous vibrant historic community.

And an appaling indictment of our democracy as well

Very good point, the decline really began as soon as bertie ahern took office. I'm amazed at how so many people think Limerick's problem is the crescent and it's image. Vistakon set up in 1995, the image wasn't a concern for them. Nor all the IT companies that set up in Castletroy like Netg.
Since 1997, the country took off in terms of IDA jobs, yet this region went into a serious decline. Unfortunately, few seem to able to add 2 + 2.

zulutango

liammur wrote: »

No, you were completely wrong. Your point has got absolutely nothing to do with anything. We all know Cork has big suburbs, Galway too. Every city in every nation will have suburbs, unless you extend the boundary. You point seems to be basically where is the boundary!

Liam, what's wrong with you?! You seem incapable of understanding a simple point, or refusing to because it doesn't fit with your neat little view. It's pretty obvious (and borne out in countless volumes of research) that a city where most of the people with spending power don't actually live in the city is likely not to have a strong economic centre. This isn't rocket science. It's called the 'donut effect'.

You're so obsessed with your own hobby horse that the IDA hasn't given enough jobs to Limerick that you refuse to consider any other possible issue. As Kess pointed out, there are a myriad of issues. I've no interest in a back and forth argument on this. There's more to life than proving some stranger wrong on an internet discussion forum.

And, I'm right by the way

marienbad

zulutango wrote: »

Liam, what's wrong with you?! You seem incapable of understanding a simple point, or refusing to because it doesn't fit with your neat little view. It's pretty obvious (and borne out in countless volumes of research) that a city where most of the people with spending power don't actually live in the city is likely not to have a strong economic centre. This isn't rocket science. It's called the 'donut effect'.

You're so obsessed with your own hobby horse that the IDA hasn't given enough jobs to Limerick that you refuse to consider any other possible issue. As Kess pointed out, there are a myriad of issues. I've no interest in a back and forth argument on this. There's more to life than proving some stranger wrong on an internet discussion forum.

And, I'm right by the way

You are right Zulu- but Liammur is'nt wrong either, There are loads of things that need to happen to save the city and no one is knocking that.

But first and foremost it must be jobs, there is no getting away from at.

Bill Clinton is right ''it's the economy stupid'' - not saying for a minute you are stupid. Our problem is that even when it was'nt the economy nationally it was locally - we simply did'nt get our fair share and now that it is the economy nationally the position is even worse.

BobMc

Romain07 wrote: »

The retail outlets will not regenerate the City. We need some kind of production in the surrounding areas to generate employment thus more money circulating in Limerick. Brighten up the City Center area by planting trees on O'Connell St and lets make Limerick a more attractive place to be. We have a clean City Center ( much cleaner than Dublin or Cork and easily cleaner than Galway) so there are positives there. It should be forbidden to have empty windows and if they are boarded up the owners should be obliged to decorate the fronts. The Corporation should oblige all Property owners to keep their frontage clean and maintained. We should outlaw the use of florescent signs and come up with another system of lighting businesses. Even these small measures could stimulate local business by obliging the Corporation and local business owners to give preferential treatment to local companies for all the small contracts.

They do this, but they target the wrong people, we got some very strong worded letters to improve our front, paint etc, but within 100ft there are at least 10 worse looking buildings, unoccupied and I presume not paying rates, its who they target and how they do it is the crux !

liammur

zulutango wrote: »

Liam, what's wrong with you?! You seem incapable of understanding a simple point, or refusing to because it doesn't fit with your neat little view. It's pretty obvious (and borne out in countless volumes of research) that a city where most of the people with spending power don't actually live in the city is likely not to have a strong economic centre. This isn't rocket science. It's called the 'donut effect'.

You're so obsessed with your own hobby horse that the IDA hasn't given enough jobs to Limerick that you refuse to consider any other possible issue. As Kess pointed out, there are a myriad of issues. I've no interest in a back and forth argument on this. There's more to life than proving some stranger wrong on an internet discussion forum.

And, I'm right by the way

Cork has big suburbs and I don't see any doughnut. Galway big suburbs and I still see no doughnut. Dublin has huge suburbs and still no doughnut.

The doughnut doesn't apply to small cities like Limerick, this should be obvious. It's an american term for far bigger cities. Of course if we closed down the crescent, people would have to go into the city to buy their groceries etc, but that's clutching at the most desperate of straws. The city centre was thriving 15 years ago, with the same suburbs, and you may not believe it, but the crescent was actually open long before then.

zulutango

marienbad wrote: »

You are right Zulu- but Liammur is'nt wrong either, There are loads of things that need to happen to save the city and no one is knocking that.

But first and foremost it must be jobs, there is no getting away from at.

Bill Clinton is right ''it's the economy stupid'' - not saying for a minute you are stupid. Our problem is that even when it was'nt the economy nationally it was locally - we simply did'nt get our fair share and now that it is the economy nationally the position is even worse.

eh ... Marien, I'm not saying he's wrong that the city needs jobs. Isn't that obvious? Of course it needs jobs. Who in their right mind would say otherwise! But there's more to it than that. Limerick was awash with jobs a few years ago, and the city was still in decay. Presenting the issue as one of employment only (which Liam pretty much is) will get us nowhere.

Kess73

zulutango wrote: »

I just copied and pasted the line from the wiki article that Liammur referenced. I wasn't dismissing the likes of Glanmire, etc. Just making the point that those figures for suburban Cork includes a lot more areas than what we would consider suburban Cork.



I don't want to imply that the urban/suburban balance is the crux of Limerick city centre's difficulties. It just shows how a huge chunk of the people with spending power in the region don't live in the city centre. The American's call it 'white flight'. We have something similar in Limerick (Ireland's Detroit!!).

We're talking about a relatively small area so the percentage of suburban versus urban point isn't something that this discussion should hang on (admittedly, I was the one who first mentioned it). It's the real numbers that matter.

Agree with your analysis below. I don't think we differ very much.

Apols if I mistook what you posted as discounting Glanmire.:)


Interesting you used the white flight term. Did you know that maybe 15 to 20 years ago that very term and the example of Detroit was actually used in relation to Cork? Basically it was noticed by people who had the power to make city scale decisions that certain changes were needed in order to prevent a mass exodus of spending power from the city centre, and it was brought up in a number of meetings that involved city planners, local authorites, politicians, local businessfolk, and those responsible for trying to attract outside investment/businesses.

I see a lot of similarities between the Cork of 20 years ago and the Limerick of now. The Cork of 20 years ago was not as bad as Limerick is now but they were at a point where they had to make some big decisions to avoid becoming a dead city centre. Some might argue that Limerick has already reached it's tipping point and fallen over, but I think a similar set of "fixes" to what Cork got and did would work in Limerick.

The city that I see as having a hell of a lot in common with Limerick is my old hometown of Liverpool. The similarities are uncanny at times, and it is probably why I live in Limerick rather than Cork, Galway or Dublin (although I have lived in all of them for a least a year apiece).

Liverpool had the same anti social issues, the same crime gang issues, the same high unemployment levels, the same unequal split between where those with spending power live and those without spending power live. The same issues with main streets in the city centre filling up with empty retail units. The same bad image to the rest of the country. I could go on and on with similarities.

Liverpool was in a really bad way, but then a lot of big projects started, not least the Liverpool One project and all that came with it. Basically it regenerated a whole section of the city. Loads and loads of retailers from high end to budget all in modern brand new units. Loads of new services. Loads of new streets. Covering from the elements over the outdoor streets. Loads of incentives for businesses to come into the city centre to set up offices/call centre/public service jobs. Huge pushes to creates living areas in and around the city centre ranging from high end accommodation to more modest accommodation. Hell it even got me to purchase a 3 bedroom unit in One Park West as my Liverpool home. Big improvements in public transports around all the new ventures. Bring back events like the Run Liverpool marathon (which I am involved with in terms of organisation and competing in) and making sure it skirts the new areas so that crowds get brought in.

Have said it many times on here over the years, but the Liverpool One project and what was started around it would act as a very good template for Limerick city. Yes it would cost money, but millions get wasted on projects as is. But the concept of attracting investment from outside of Ireland should be looked at for such projects. The long term benefits from a similarly ambitious project in Limerick would be immense.

I also agree with your comment that we don't differ very much on what we both think is needed. I think we just approach the Limerick issue from different starting points, but generally cover the same ground by the time we finish.