Most-Wanted Nazi War Criminal Located in Hungary

gobnaitolunacy

karma_ wrote: »

They were of course war crimes. The Japanese were already defeated and there was never any need to have a land invasion of an island nation. What's worse in fact, is that they were dropped to show the world and particularly the Russians what America was capable of. There's plenty of testimony from many of the US top brass at the time showing their disapproval of the dropping of the a-bombs.

It's actually still relevant today, because as much as the US still go on about others obtaining WMD's, they are the only ones to have ever used them on actual targets.

Partly true, perhaps you underestimate the literally suicidal fighting spirit of the Japanese. If there was no A bombing, and an Allied invasion, don't think they weren't going to be any sort of pushover. A lot of very messy hand-to-hand street fighting etc. BTW I'm not pro A Bomb, but what alternatives did the Allies have?

getz

karma_ wrote: »

Damn man... you really do have issues about being from Ireland.

no its just where a lot of them turned up with vatican passports

Father Damo

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

A couple of years ago The Sun 'exposed' a former concentration camp guard who was back living in Germany. Nothing ever came of it, he died recently. Any of these people still living are not long for this world anyway. I don't think we'll ever see another person charged with war crimes in relation to Nazi Germany.

With the size of their army there must still be thousands of men who were in their late teens to early 20s still alive who were involved, a smal proportion of whom have another 15 odd years left in them.

karma_

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Partly true, perhaps you underestimate the literally suicidal fighting spirit of the Japanese. If there was no A bombing, and an Allied invasion, don't think they weren't going to be any sort of pushover. A lot of very messy hand-to-hand street fighting etc. BTW I'm not pro A Bomb, but what alternatives did the Allies have?

Well, there is literally reams of testimony from those at the top that essentially says that at that point the bombs were dropped, the Japanese were already defeated. In fact, I believe - and I'm open to correction here - that Japan had already offered a surrender prior to the bombing, the problem was that it was not unconditional.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Albert Folens founder of the schoolbook publisher which bore his name was reputed to have assisted the Gestapo in hunting members of the Belgian Resistance. He was actually convicted by a Belgian court and sent to prison, but escaped and fled to Ireland

DEFTLEFTHAND

Father Damo wrote: »

With the size of their army there must still be thousands of men who were in their late teens to early 20s still alive who were involved, a smal proportion of whom have another 15 odd years left in them.

There was Conscription though, Many were involved in active combat and not in the other atrocities.

Remmy

In b4 Mossad

Wibbs

What's really scary about reading about that time period is how easily ordinary people went along and enabled some of the most repugnant acts in human history. Very very few were forced to do it.

Read of a police chief in Germany ordered from on high to find collect and transport Jews from his area. He had moral issues with this, so he gathered his men together and told them of his misgivings. He also told them that he would go along with the orders, but didn't expect his men to do so if they felt it was wrong and that no sanctions would befall them if they refused. Turned out a fair number did refuse. At first. Within a couple of weeks the vast majority had returned to the ranks and were happily fulfilling the orders. Of the group there were one or two sadistic savages that came to the fore. Traits that had been hidden in the past, but most were normal everyday men with families, upstanding citizens and all that. It seems the Nazi command knew how this kinda thing would go. The police chief made official his misgivings but contrary to what you might expect, didn't get much hassle over it at all. They knew in the end people will go along with that stuff.

They also realised people have limits. Hence the final solution involving mechanisation and dehumanisation of the killing process. Mass shootings were causing issues with the troops on the ground, even dissent. Himmler himself had a weak stomach for such things. Himmler, a truly evil individual, but the perfect boss according to those who worked for him.

We see that in every area the Nazi's went into. Most people just go along with it, some certainly out of fear, but mostly to "fit in", with a rare enough few becoming complete monsters and an even rarer few that resist. The ones that do resist tend to be the "oddballs" the dissenters, the outliers in normal life. It seems that if history is anything to go by, if AH was a society in such circumstances, it would be more likely the trolls, troublemakers and oddballs, rather than the good posters that would hide you in the attic if you were on the run.

Einhard

karma_ wrote: »

They were of course war crimes. The Japanese were already defeated and there was never any need to have a land invasion of an island nation. What's worse in fact, is that they were dropped to show the world and particularly the Russians what America was capable of. There's plenty of testimony from many of the US top brass at the time showing their disapproval of the dropping of the a-bombs.

It's actually still relevant today, because as much as the US still go on about others obtaining WMD's, they are the only ones to have ever used them on actual targets.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that or else we'll go far off-topic. We're obviously reading very different accounts and sources if you believe that Japan was entirely defeated, and would simply surrender without a fight. A debate for a different thread perhaps.

Wibbs

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

There was Conscription though, Many were involved in active combat and not in the other atrocities.

The basic training the Japanese soldier went through was about the most dehumanising of all the conflicts forces. Shít like beatings, even live bayonet practice and the like. Very few ordinary infantrymen in China say would have not been involved. Rapes and murder were a daily thing, even quite a number of cases of cannibalism. They had "rapehouses" where Chinese women were raped to death as a form of R and R for the troops. They even built special rape chairs to secure these women. They had special scientific units who tested biological and chemical agents on civilians. Many Japanese doctors trained in surgical techniques with live and often fully conscious civilians. Unreal shít went on.

Einhard

Wibbs wrote: »

What's really scary about reading about that time period is how easily ordinary people went along and enabled some of the most repugnant acts in human history. Very very few were forced to do it.

Read of a police chief in Germany ordered from on high to find collect and transport Jews from his area. He had moral issues with this, so he gathered his men together and told them of his misgivings. He also told them that he would go along with the orders, but didn't expect his men to do so if they felt it was wrong and that no sanctions would befall them if they refused. Turned out a fair number did refuse. At first. Within a couple of weeks the vast majority had returned to the ranks and were happily fulfilling the orders. Of the group there were one or two sadistic savages that came to the fore. Traits that had been hidden in the past, but most were normal everyday men with families, upstanding citizens and all that. It seems the Nazi command knew how this kinda thing would go. The police chief made official his misgivings but contrary to what you might expect, didn't get much hassle over it at all. They knew in the end people will go along with that stuff.

They also realised people have limits. Hence the final solution involving mechanisation and dehumanisation of the killing process. Mass shootings were causing issues with the troops on the ground, even dissent. Himmler himself had a weak stomach for such things. Himmler, a truly evil individual, but the perfect boss according to those who worked for him.

We see that in every area the Nazi's went into. Most people just go along with it, some certainly out of fear, but mostly to "fit in", with a rare enough few becoming complete monsters and an even rarer few that resist. The ones that do resist tend to be the "oddballs" the dissenters, the outliers in normal life. It seems that if history is anything to go by, if AH was a society in such circumstances, it would be more likely the trolls, troublemakers and oddballs, rather than the good posters that would hide you in the attic if you were on the run.

The banality of evil and all that. Very few of us are very far removed from sliding into the type of barbarity that sickens us when we see it perpetrated by the Japanese or Naziz or whoever. Even now, there are horrific atrocities being carried out in Syria by people who, up to recently, were ordinary, respected citizens. It's what's truly scary about the rise of such neo-Nazi groups as New Dawn in Greece.

I think the MIlgram experiements gives a shocking indication of just how susceptible we are to herd mentality, and sublimating morality to obedience. Eye-opening stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Wibbs

Einhard wrote: »

The banality of evil and all that. Very few of us are very far removed from sliding into the type of barbarity that sickens us when we see it perpetrated by the Japanese or Naziz or whoever.

Yep. I'd go further and say that the German(and their enablers) atrocities on top of the obvious horror hit home in another way. For westerners anyway. They look like us. They are us. It's a lot easier to ignore/tut tut/explain away when it's black, brown or yellow men's atrocities. It's easier to explain away such acts in "uncivilised" as we may see them cultures. Not so easy with Germany, one of the single most cultured and educated people on earth at the time. The Nazi's hold up an uncomfortable mirror.

Father Damo

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

There was Conscription though, Many were involved in active combat and not in the other atrocities.

While probably the vast majority was done by minority groups like the SS rather than regular soldiers, imagine a conscripted Irish army including our skanger population, who knew they could stab, shoot and rape without fear of prosecution. Transfer that to Germany and I am sure they had a large underclass of scumbags doing the same, many of whom are likely still alive today.

Not to generalise, but in my time I have met god knows how many Germans, and a larger proportion of them than, say, the Irish, are not mentally on the same level. Not in an evil sense on the surface, just plain odd and extremely anal more than anything, but given the power over life and death, who knows. Not all of them obviously, or even the majority, but in the same way every small village or Dublin estate has its resident weirdo, every year in school has those one or two kids who you suspect would do a Columbine if they had the motivation, in the same way every workplace has that one oddball, about 10% of German men, from my experience, seem to be that guy. Gerany certainly would have a lower level of skangers than we have, but in terms of weirdos and probable perverts, way off our scale.

Rabidlamb

Ronin247 wrote: »

I would like to see a few of the allied war criminals named and tried as well but that will never happen.Certain organisations made massive profits off the war and whoever ordered Hiroshima and Nagasaki should surely be tried as a war criminal for deliberately targetting civillians? Of course there were only ever war criminals on the losing side.

I can be strongly argued that the dropping of the atom bombs saved many more lives than those who were killed.
It was an action strong enough to allow the Japanese surrender with honour intact.

jmayo

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Why would anyone consider the Irish good fighters? Unless your talking about drunken brawls amongst ourselves.

Where is the Irish empire?

800 years to "liberate" the island?

Come on, the Irish are terrible fighters.

The problem we had, much liek the Scots is that we were never truly united and we always had enough people who could be easily bought off by the English/British.
The way Collins got around this is by having higher level of secrecy and shooting those that were snitches.

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree massive profits were made from the war, especially in the US. What people often forget is the same massive profits made in Germany by numerous companies and businessmen that helped Hitler to power and helped him prosecute the war. Companies and businessmen who continued on after the war down to today and very very few were brought to task.

If you want to see who did best out of WWII go visit an Alpine country noted for it's clocks.
They even supplied war materials directly to Germany and it wasn't like steel/iron ore from Sweden.
They supplied finished articles.


Yep, though to be fair to the current Japanese they know very very little of their wartime history. Your average Japanese wouldn't have much of a clue about the atrocities perpetrated by their great grandfathers in Manchuria. Those questions have been avoided like the plague. They certainly never had the historical exposition and guilt educated into them that Germans had.

There was some muppet on here the other day arguing they are right in not teaching the younger generation, because it would make them feel they are somehow responsible. :rolleyes:

The Japs have never owned up to what they really did.

Einhard wrote: »

People might find it odd, but while I don't consider Hiroshima or Nagasaki to be war crimes because they hastened the end of the war, and thus saved countless lives, I don't feel the same about Dresden, or say, the firebombing of Tokyo. They seemed much more like revenge to me, and that, IMO, puts them in a different sphere than the dropping of Little Boy and Fat Man.

Ahhh....
Dresden was just a prime example of a raid going perfectly.
That could have happened to some other city, but it just happened to be Dresden.
And I don't believe Dresden was just some university town.
The firebombing of Hamburg would have been another that went particularly well.
It was partially down to luck.
It is like the fact that lucky weather for Kokura meant Nagaski was bombed instead.


BTW I think the Germans and Japanese got everything they deserved.
The cr** they did to other nations and peoples means they deserved no quarter.
They were all. or as good as all to make no difference, more than happy to tow the party line when the war was going their way.

I hate the cr** spouted by a lot of the ones that survived about how they didn't know about anything.
For instance in Germany they had already seen and condoned for the most part the mistreatment of Jews even before war ever broke out.
A fair few of them worked in industry in Germany which used slave labour with no qualms.
A fair amount of cr** was spouted by normal Wehrmacht soldiers who would often claim after the war all the bad sh** was done by SS, SD, Gestapo, etc.
There is no way in hell the normal Wehrmacht soldiers, especially on the Eastern front or in the Balkans did not have an idea about the massacres being perpetrated.

Wibbs wrote: »

The basic training the Japanese soldier went through was about the most dehumanising of all the conflicts forces. Shít like beatings, even live bayonet practice and the like. Very few ordinary infantrymen in China say would have not been involved. Rapes and murder were a daily thing, even quite a number of cases of cannibalism.

Actually they had engaged in cannibalism in Papua New Guinea in 1942 and it wasn't a case like Burma where they were starving to death due to no resupplies arriving.

Wibbs wrote: »

They had "rapehouses" where Chinese women were raped to death as a form of R and R for the troops. They even built special rape chairs to secure these women. They had special scientific units who tested biological and chemical agents on civilians. Many Japanese doctors trained in surgical techniques with live and often fully conscious civilians. Unreal shít went on.

And some of those doctors became highly thought of scientists working in hospitals and universities after the war.

Father Damo wrote: »

While probably the vast majority was done by minority groups like the SS rather than regular soldiers, imagine a conscripted Irish army including our skanger population, who knew they could stab, shoot and rape without fear of prosecution. Transfer that to Germany and I am sure they had a large underclass of scumbags doing the same, many of whom are likely still alive today.

Accept here is the problem with your argument.

The Einsatzgruppen leaders and their subordinate officers were carefully selected by Heydrich from among the best-educated and dedicated Nazis.
Three of the four commanders held doctorates; Franz Walter Stahlecker (EG A), Otto Rasch (EG C – a double PhD), and Otto Ohlendorf (EG D). The commander of Einsatzgruppe B was Arthur Nebe, then head of the Kripo (Kriminalpolizei – Criminal Police). Of the 17 initial SK, EK, and Vorkommando leaders, a further 7 held a doctorate. Subsequent leaders included an ex-pastor (Ernst Szymanowski alias Biberstein), a physician (Weinmann), and a professional opera singer (Klingelhöfer). These were clearly no gangsters. They represented those who, in a different time and a different culture, might have been considered among the brightest and the best of their generation.

So the guys in charge weren't scumbags form the under classes but highly educated and supposedly civilised people.

This is what made the Nazists so damm scary.

karma_

jmayo wrote: »

BTW I think the Germans and Japanese got everything they deserved.
The cr** they did to other nations and peoples means they deserved no quarter.

This is just a downright moronic, never mind brutal thing to post. It's also mighty ironic.

Father Damo

jmayo wrote: »

Accept here is the problem with your argument.



So the guys in charge weren't scumbags form the under classes but highly educated and supposedly civilised people.

This is what made the Nazists so damm scary.

Not a problem at all if you see my following post. Most of the weird, strange Germans I have met were educated and eloquent. I have no doubt alot of these blokes, given an opportunity without fear of prosecution (as the SS as the tike reckoned they had), would not be averse to what the Nazis did. I have met more nationalities than the average Joe in my time and the Germans have without a shadow of a doubt the largest proportion of oddballs.

Border-Rat

Jayda Helpless Cloud wrote: »

Try the murdering bastard.. This animal and people like him should not know a minutes peace until their dying day.

Why 'try' him if you've already decided he's a murderer? Safe to say someone as hysterical as you shouldn't be near a jury.

biko wrote: »

****ing nazi scum. Try him, convict him and hang him.

Um, shouldn't that be try him... see if he's convicted?

Chucken

Border-Rat wrote: »

Why 'try' him if you've already decided he's a murderer? Safe to say someone as hysterical as you shouldn't be near a jury.



Um, shouldn't that be try him... see if he's convicted?

From the OP:

In 1948, a Czechoslovakian court condemned Csatary to death in absentia but he had made it to Canada.

He's already had his trial.

Border-Rat

He's already had his trial.

Yes, I'm sure that was fair an impartial.


Anyway the people demanding he be tried evidently didn't notice that either. Uninformed hysterics first, research non existent. I must say, I don't believe this man killed 15,000 Jews. I think its all lies.

Also, from the Daily Mail;

Wiesenthal Centre compiles evidence against Laszlo Csatary, while prosector appears hesitant to bring him to trial

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2174311/Laszlo-Csatary-Number-wanted-Nazi-war-criminal-accused-deaths-tracked-Budapest.html#ixzz20svh2J00

The Wiesenthal Centre has been exposed as airbrushing photographs re: Holocaust.

Stiffler2

Firstly the guy is 97 so he's too old, ain't gonna last much longer.


secondly I don't think Ireland has a say in this. We were one of the only nations to sign Hitlers book of condolences when Hitler died.


America & the UK still haven't forgiven us for that one

marcsignal

Jayda Helpless Cloud wrote: »

Try the murdering bastard.. This animal and people like him should not know a minutes peace until their dying day.

Totally agree, I don't know how scumbags like these sleep at night, with the blood they have on their hands.

It shouldn't take Dr Efraim Zuroff too long to find them either, since they're living openly in his own back yard.

gobnaitolunacy

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Firstly the guy is 97 so he's too old, ain't gonna last much longer.


secondly I don't think Ireland has a say in this. We were one of the only nations to sign Hitlers book of condolences when Hitler died.


America & the UK still haven't forgiven us for that one

Yes, but should he get away scot-free if guilty? I think not.


I think we gave them plently (covert) help at the time. The advantages of having us directly involved in the war would be miniscule to say the least but that's for another thread.

Ellis Dee

Let's not forget a principle that most European countries respect and observe now that the Nazis have been defeated: presumption of innocence, i.e. that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. After all, wasn't that the idea behind getting rid of totalitarian forms of government?:rolleyes:

A 1948 conviction and death sentence by a kangaroo court in a country that no longer exists and had just carried out a pretty through ethnic cleansing operation itself, and when the defendant was not even present to defend himself, wouldn't hold much water today and could not be enforced.:cool:

So let's put the guy on trial, a fair trial with all legal remedies and avenues of appeal, and, IF he is convicted after the final legal instance has given its judgement in three or four years' time, put a centenarian in jail for the rest of his life. I'm sure that will make a lot of people feel great and stake out a fantastic new path for future generations to follow.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Meanwhile, let's wait 60 years or so for those who are committing war crimes - against the Chechens, Afghanis, Palestinians, Iraqis, Pakistanis, numerous African countries, etc., etc. - TODAY to get rounded up and put on trial.:)

holystungun9

Can we not just take his shower mat away?

Biggins

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Some of those Nazis were very good at hide and seek.

Hitler was!
He died on February 13th, 1962 (Operation Feuerland) in Patagonia - if you believe some supposed evidence that has been found and collated lately.

Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IT0LhDccIU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuLPMCxvBf8

Father Damo

marcsignal wrote: »

Totally agree, I don't know how scumbags like these sleep at night, with the blood they have on their hands.

It shouldn't take Dr Efraim Zuroff too long to find them either, since they're living openly in his own back yard.

Good point. There are likely more war criminals living within a half hour drive of the Wisenthal HQ than there are in the whole of Europe and the Americas. The ones living in West Bank settlements are really doing nothing more than a replica of the German lebensraum policy anyway.

ejmaztec

I bet there are quite a few people the in former Iron Curtain countries that should be rounded up for crimes against humanity carried out in the Soviet era, as well as the odd few doddering nazis still kicking around.

Many people seem to have got away with murder in those places.

Father Damo

The Sun decides to go after convenient bogeymen. Not too likely they will be knocking on the doors of ex paras demanding answers regarding their conduct on Bloody Sunday. Nazis are more fair game for some reason.

marcsignal

Every time i set eyes on Efraim Zuroff i just see this...:pac: