Sexual Orientation

sbsquarepants

PDN wrote: »

It's hardly condescending that Christians believe that we all need foriveness.

Ah, i'm not looking to cause offence or provoke a debate even - i was just thinking out loud. Condescending is probably the wrong word ,but if you are quietly going about your own business and harming no one, surely it is a bit insulting (maybe a better word) for anyone to think you need forgiveness for that?

doctoremma

PDN wrote: »

They are. For example, if someone's broken sexuality would them to promiscuity or unfaithfulness to their spouse then that needs to be given up in order to live as a follower of Christ.

Understood.

PDN wrote: »

For some people that means voluntary celibacy, for others it means being faithful to one person within marriage.

For homosexuals, that means celibacy. For heterosexuals, that means fidelity in a heterosexual relationship.

This is what I'm seeing here, happy to be corrected or to further analyse...
If a person thinks the homosexual life is sinful and that celibacy is the only way to ensure redemption, I have nothing to say about that (except, of course, I don't agree). If they are condemning people for their sinfulness, at least that's an honest approach.

What I'm finding difficult to understand is the assertion that rejection of sexuality is somehow a "better" way in the eyes of god, while they themselves do not follow that rule. That smacks of hypocrisy.

PDN

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Ah, i'm not looking to cause offence or provoke a debate even - i was just thinking out loud. Condescending is probably the wrong word ,but if you are quietly going about your own business and harming no one, surely it is a bit insulting (maybe a better word) for anyone to think you need forgiveness for that?

If I ever come across anyone in human history (other than infants or the severely mentally retarded) who never harmed anyone else then I'll consider that point.

wolfsbane

sbsquarepants wrote: »

My sexual orientation is straight - that doean't mean i can just decide i want to have sex with that woman over there, i need her permision.
Adults are in a position to grant or deny that permision to other adults - their gender is unimportant. A man can decide to have sex with another man if he so chooses, same for a woman.
A child can not make that decision - so there is the difference. CONSENT
Sex is sex, rape is rape, whether it is a man a woman or a child.

Yes, there is a difference - as I said. Both are wicked perversions of God's gift of sex, but one is by consent and the other by force or abusive seduction of those not capable of an adult choice.

Heterosexual sex also has its perversions - sex outside of marriage, in all its forms.

We may choose to engage in perverted sex or not. Choosing to do so does not make it right. It is wilful disobedience to our Creator.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

wolfsbane

davidgrn wrote: »

Wolfsbane you are right. Paedophiles and gay people are sexual sinners and are exactly the same. God will punish us.

Feel better?

Please point out where I said paedophiles and gay people 'are exactly the same'.

When the red mist clears, you will find I said no such thing. Have another read, dispassionately this time.


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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

twinQuins

prinz wrote: »

If a gay male couple use a surrogate what kind of rights is the surrogate mother going to have

The same rights the surrogate mother would have if they weren't gay. Surrogacy and adoption are not unique to gay couples, this is a red herring.

sbsquarepants

PDN wrote: »

If I ever come across anyone in human history (other than infants or the severely mentally retarded) who never harmed anyone else then I'll consider that point.

You don't need to come across someone who has never harmed anyone. They could have harmed all sorts but been forgiven, from that point on they lived a quite life harming no one.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, there is a difference - as I said. Both are wicked perversions of God's gift of sex, but one is by consent and the other by force or abusive seduction of those not capable of an adult choice.

Heterosexual sex also has its perversions - sex outside of marriage, in all its forms.

We may choose to engage in perverted sex or not. Choosing to do so does not make it right. It is wilful disobedience to our Creator.

******************************************************************

Do you really believe this stuff?

PDN

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You don't need to come across someone who has never harmed anyone. They could have harmed all sorts but been forgiven, from that point on they lived a quite life harming no one.

In that case, having been forgiven, they evidently did need forgiveness then.

Ciaran0

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Do you really believe this stuff?

Bizarre isn't it.

wolfsbane

tommy2bad wrote: »

Wolfsbane, I wonder if this thing about orientation is a bit of a red herring, Whether it's a choice or not isn't the issue.
The issue is that your religious conviction is that it's wrong and you want this enshrined in law.
The thing is, thats a theocracy, they never end well.
Morality and legality are two different things, something being legal doesn't make it compulsory. Something being illegal dose however make that thing forbidden. To justifies such a restriction you have to prove harm, quoting the bible may convince you that hell fire is the end result of one choice but not convince everyone, unless it's going to harm you then thats their choice. You can't stop the wicked going to Babylon.

Where did I say I wanted homosexuality enshrined in law as immoral? Did I not say I wanted civil and religious liberty for them and me enshrined in law?

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

sbsquarepants

PDN wrote: »

In that case, having been forgiven, they evidently did need forgiveness then.

No my point is from that point on they live as a happy gay couple. Do they still need to be forgiven for merely being gay? Can you really think it's a sin to love somebody?

doctoremma

wolfsbane wrote: »

Where did I say I wanted homosexuality enshrined in law as immoral? Did I not say I wanted civil and religious liberty for them and me enshrined in law?

Is your civil and religious liberty NOT enshrined in law? Which parts would you like to see formalised in law?

efb

Your god doesn't want me, not bothered- but I don't want your gods law encroaching on civil law

Ciaran0

wolfsbane wrote: »

We may choose to engage in perverted sex or not. Choosing to do so does not make it right. It is wilful disobedience to our Creator.

Do you really believe that when God was creating us all, he said "Right I'll make one in every ten people gay. But I'll also make sexual acts between gay people a sin. That'll show them how much I love them!"

PDN

sbsquarepants wrote: »

No my point is from that point on they live as a happy gay couple. Do they still need to be forgiven for merely being gay? Can you really think it's a sin to love somebody?

No, I don't think it is a sin to love somebody. I do, however, think it is a sin to have sexual intercourse with certain people. In my case, for example, as a married man, it would be a sin to engage in sexual intercourse with any of the 7 billion people to whom I'm not married..

Ciaran0

PDN wrote: »

No, I don't think it is a sin to love somebody. I do, however, think it is a sin to have sexual intercourse with certain people. In my case, for example, as a married man, it would be a sin to engage in sexual intercourse with any of the 7 billion people to whom I'm not married..

Would it be wrong to assume you also think it's a sin for two loving, consenting adults of the same sex to have sexual intercourse?

PDN

Ciaran0 wrote: »

Bizarre isn't it.

Moderator Warning
I would suggest that you try actually entering into discussion or debate.

Just posting and saying that, as a non-Christian, you think Christians beliefs are stupid is nothing more than trolling.

Please consider this informal warning as your one and only Get Out of Jail Free card.

sbsquarepants

PDN wrote: »

No, I don't think it is a sin to love somebody. I do, however, think it is a sin to have sexual intercourse with certain people. In my case, for example, as a married man, it would be a sin to engage in sexual intercourse with any of the 7 billion people to whom I'm not married..

I have to say i'm glad i don't share your views, they seem extremely restrictive.
I assume it's down to the whole sex is for making babies school of thought?
If you or your wife were infertile say, no chance of ever procreating, would sex be off the cards altogether?

PDN

Ciaran0 wrote: »

Would it be wrong to assume you also think it's a sin for two loving, consenting adults of the same sex to have sexual intercourse?

No, it would not be wrong at all. According to biblical teaching that is a sin, just as much as if two loving, consenting adults of opposite sexes (if not married to each other) have sexual intercourse.

Christians also believe it is a sin for people to pray to idols.

Jews and Muslims also think it is a sin to eat a bacon sandwich.

We may or may not agree with each religion's opinion of what constitutes a sin. However, I have the good manners to respect the beliefs of the Jew and Muslim and not to pick pointless arguments by trolling about bacon sandwiches in the Islam Forum.

If I want to become a Muslim or a Jew then that would involve adopting their rules. Since I have no desire to convert to either of those religions, it isn't really any of my business whether they have a bit of a thing against bacon.

Just so long as they don't interefere with my right to eat a bacon sandwich if i choose.

wolfsbane

Zillah said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
God did not make us selfish or vicious or lazy or - or any other sinful thing we just do because we are that way. We became that when Adam fell. We are all born just naturally heading off in our own way, not God's.

That applies to sexual orientation too. God made Adam and Eve heterosexual. After the Fall, sexually perverted desires came in as well. Men and women became dissatisfied with their husband/wife and looked for heterosexual excitement in others. Some find it is homosexual rather than heterosexual activity they desire. Others find it is with children or animals. Others find their desires crossing several of these. All sinful departures from the origin sexual natural God gave men and women.

So the "I was born this way" is no defence. At best it establishes how depraved we are even without society's pressures.
Right; so your position is and always has been "Anything other than monogamous heterosexuality is wrong and perverted".

Correct.

Paedophilia being defined as an orientation really has nothing to do with it, this thread is basically just a soapbox for you.

I thought it was an interesting development in secular thinking, and one that had implications for the common homosexual defence.

If you are asserting that I have no interest in the psychology as such, you are right.

Also, if you're so convinced that heterosexuality is the natural order as defined by God, how do you explain the widely documented examples of homosexuality in animals? They are not moral creatures and could not be subject to moral failings, they simply execute their natures as God designed them. Isn't it strange that we and animals behave in such similar ways, even though we are fundamentally - supposedly - different classes of creatures?

I'm not sure sexual preference for homosexuality has been demonstrated in animals. Obtaining sexual relief by unnatural means is a different matter. Humans in prison or in other deprived conditions may resort to homosexual behaviour - and quit it when heterosexual opportunities resume.

In any case, the animal kingdom is also fallen - not morally, but in operation. Predation was not the created norm. Neither was sexual perversion.

You also mentioned original sin. While we're on the topic, I'd like to note that I find it really strange that God would design reality in such a way that a disobedient act from a pair of humans would have an impact so pervasive, wide-spread and possessing such longevity.

Since we are all their children, and the biosphere was under their authority, all fell with them. Why God allows it to go on so long is His business. He has a plan to redeem a people for Himself, and a timetable for doing it.

If you were running the universe, no doubt you would do it differently. But consider the possibility that the One who made the universe just might know better than you.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Wiggles88

PDN wrote: »

No, it would not be wrong at all. According to biblical teaching that is a sin, just as much as if two loving, consenting adults of opposite sexes (if not married to each other) have sexual intercourse.

Christians also believe it is a sin for people to pray to idols.

Jews and Muslims also think it is a sin to eat a bacon sandwich.

We may or may not agree with each religion's opinion of what constitutes a sin. However, I have the good manners to respect the beliefs of the Jew and Muslim and not to pick pointless arguments by trolling about bacon sandwiches in the Islam Forum.

If I want to become a Muslim or a Jew then that would involve adopting their rules. Since I have no desire to convert to either of those religions, it isn't really any of my business whether they have a bit of a thing against bacon.

Just so long as they don't interefere with my right to eat a bacon sandwich if i choose.

The difference of course is that bacon sandwiches have not been outlawed for all simply because of the muslims religion

PDN

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I have to say i'm glad i don't share your views, they seem extremely restrictive.
I assume it's down to the whole sex is for making babies school of thought?
If you or your wife were infertile say, no chance of ever procreating, would sex be off the cards altogether?

And, as the old saying goes, "Assume makes an ASS out of U and ME" (well, actually it just makes an ass of you! ).

Sexual intercourse is an incredibly wonderful gift of intimacy. And, since I had my vasectomy 19 years ago, sex has been very much on the cards. And, when compared to my rather lonely pre-Christian promiscuous lifestyle, I find that sexual intercourse is much more exciting and fulfilling in its God-given setting of a loving marriage.

PDN

Wiggles88 wrote: »

The difference of course is that bacon sandwiches have not been outlawed for all simply because of the muslims religion

In certain parts of the world they are. And, last time I looked, homosexual acts were not outlawed for all in Ireland.

As it is I support the legal right of consenting adults to roger each other if they wish, irrespective of gender or number of partners. I also support the right of people to eat bacon sandwiches if they wish. And I support the right of religions to abstain from pork or from certain sexual acts if that is their beliefs.

So no need for any fake outrage.

PDN

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'm not sure sexual preference for homosexuality has been demonstrated in animals. Obtaining sexual relief by unnatural means is a different matter. Humans in prison or in other deprived conditions may resort to homosexual behaviour - and quit it when heterosexual opportunities resume.

In any case, the animal kingdom is also fallen - not morally, but in operation. Predation was not the created norm. Neither was sexual perversion.

Female spiders sometimes eat their male partners after (or even during) sex. So that makes it 'natural' for people to do the same I guess?

wolfsbane

PopePalpatine wrote: »

wolfsbane, do you believe every single word in the Bible is true?

Yes - in the normal sense of the term. It is true in everything it asserts.

For example, it asserts fornication is a sin. It is true that fornication is a sin.

But the Bible also records lies or mistaken ideas. It never asserts them, just records them. For example, Genesis 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.


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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

PickledLime

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, there is a difference - as I said. Both are wicked perversions of God's gift of sex, but one is by consent and the other by force or abusive seduction of those not capable of an adult choice.

Heterosexual sex also has its perversions - sex outside of marriage, in all its forms.

We may choose to engage in perverted sex or not. Choosing to do so does not make it right. It is wilful disobedience to our Creator.

Speak for yourself mate.

So myself and my girlfriend of 3 years with whom i'm involved in a completely loving, trusting and monogamous relationship are committing acts of perversion when we have sex? Do you actually say this to people who you know who are in a similar relationship?

You do know that sex (and homosexuality) has been around a lot longer than marriage and Christianity, right?

Wiggles88

PDN wrote: »

In certain parts of the world they are. And, last time I looked, homosexual acts were not outlawed for all in Ireland.

As it is I support the legal right of consenting adults to roger each other if they wish, irrespective of gender or number of partners. I also support the right of people to eat bacon sandwiches if they wish. And I support the right of religions to abstain from pork or from certain sexual acts if that is their beliefs.

So no need for any fake outrage.

Yes they can do all that but are their union given the same rights under the law as you and your wife? The answer is no. Hence it is worthy of a topic of discussion.

wolfsbane

PDN wrote: »

Female spiders sometimes eat their male partners after (or even during) sex. So that makes it 'natural' for people to do the same I guess?

Excellent point!

sbsquarepants

PDN wrote: »

And, as the old saying goes, "Assume makes an ASS out of U and ME" (well, actually it just makes an ass of you! )..

:D

Just wondering where this stuff comes from!

PDN wrote: »

Sexual intercourse is an incredibly wonderful gift of intimacy. And, since I had my vasectomy 19 years ago, sex has been very much on the cards. And, when compared to my rather lonely pre-Christian promiscuous lifestyle, I find that sexual intercourse is much more exciting and fulfilling in its God-given setting of a loving marriage.

I had a very promiscuous lifestyle at one stage, i never found it lonely to be honest, seems a bit clíched. I don't in any way accept i need forgiveness for it though, or regret it even (bar a handfull of occasions!)
If sex is a gift, then it's a gift - you don't give someone a gift but then tell them not to use it, or place restrictions on it - that's just plain crazy do you not think? Here's a telly - no watching movies though. Here's a car - no left turns, they're dirty!
Can you honestly not see the logic holes in this story?

PDN

Wiggles88 wrote: »

Yes they can do all that but are their union given the same rights under the law as you and your wife? The answer is no. Hence it is worthy of a topic of discussion.

And that has what to do with Christianity?

I am fully supportive of the position that same-sex partners should have the same legal rights and protection as those enjoyed by my wife and I. So where's the problem?

Wiggles88

PDN wrote: »

Wiggles88 wrote: »

Yes they can do all that but are their union given the same rights under the law as you and your wife? The answer is no. Hence it is worthy of a topic of discussion.

And that has what to do with Christianity?

I am fully supportive of the position that same-sex partners should have the same legal rights and protection as those enjoyed by my wife and I. So where's the problem?

Well great but you must realise that the main argument against the legalization of same sex marriage is one of religious reasons

wolfsbane

PickledLime wrote: »

Speak for yourself mate.

So myself and my girlfriend of 3 years with whom i'm involved in a completely loving, trusting and monogamous relationship are committing acts of perversion when we have sex? Do you actually say this to people who you know who are in a similar relationship?

You do know that sex (and homosexuality) has been around a lot longer than marriage and Christianity, right?

Yes, I tell those willing to listen to the Christian gospel whatever they need to do to please God.

As the Bible quote I have been lately signing with shows, you fall into the fornicators category ( assuming neither of you are married - in which case you would be among the adulterers):
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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

PDN

sbsquarepants wrote: »

If sex is a gift, then it's a gift - you don't give someone a gift but then tell them not to use it, or place restrictions on it - that's just plain crazy do you not think?

I hope and pray that you are not a parent.

So you would give your son a car without telling him not to drive too fast?

The more valuable a gift is, the more we expect the recepient to treat it with care and respect.

Sexual intimacy is one of the most powerful and wonderful gifts that God has given. I think God had a real brainwave the day He invented sex. Also, if we are honest, sexuality when handled wrongly can cause more hurt and pain than almost any area of life. So it makes perfect sense that the giver would advise us to use the gift in the way that will produce the maximum fulfillment and the least harm.

doctoremma

PDN wrote: »

I do, however, think it is a sin to have sexual intercourse with certain people. In my case, for example, as a married man, it would be a sin to engage in sexual intercourse with any of the 7 billion people to whom I'm not married..

You say that like it's a problem, like you would do this if it weren't a sin. Effectively saying to a homosexual person "Look, I have restrictions too, deal with yours, I'll deal mine". That's terribly obtuse.

Of course, it's not the case that you struggle to cope with any restrictions of your sexuality (or the relationships arising from it). You have, I suspect, a mutually fulfilling and loving relationship with your wife. This would be, in theory, denied to a homosexual, who is supposed to live without ANY sexual intimacy.

PDN

Wiggles88 wrote: »

Well great but you must realise that the main argument against the legalization of same sex marriage is one of religious reasons

Nonsense. Same-sex marriage was hardly promoted as a great idea in the former Soviet Union, or today in China or North Korea.

wolfsbane

Ciaran0 wrote: »

Do you really believe that when God was creating us all, he said "Right I'll make one in every ten people gay. But I'll also make sexual acts between gay people a sin. That'll show them how much I love them!"

We are not immediately created by God at our conception - we are formed from Adam's seed. Adam's nature is what we are, not the original perfect creation.

We are born with a twisted nature, and grow up to sin in various ways. No one has to teach us to be selfish, to lie or steal, etc. It just comes naturally. 'Fallen-nature-ally'.

**********************************************************************
1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

qrrgprgua

Wolfsbane.. your translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 is questionable

The bible does not say homosexuals won't inherit the kingdom of God, "Its men who sleep with men" In Latin who won't inherit the kingdom of God. Or St.Paul would have used the word ἀρσενοκοῖται

ἀρσενοκοῖται refers to that specific form of pederasty “which consisted of the enslaving of boys as youths for sexual purposes, and the use of these boys by adult males”

Just making a point on the text of your quoted scripture.

ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι βασιλείαν Θεοῦ οὐ κληρονομήσουσι; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται οὔτε πλεονέκται οὔτε κλέπται οὔτε μέθυσοι, οὐ λοίδοροι, οὐχ ἅρπαγες βασιλείαν Θεοῦ οὐ κληρονομήσουσι.

Wiggles88

PDN wrote: »

Wiggles88 wrote: »

Well great but you must realise that the main argument against the legalization of same sex marriage is one of religious reasons

Nonsense. Same-sex marriage was hardly promoted as a great idea in the former Soviet Union, or today in China or North Korea.

I was referring to the west and specifically Ireland, NK and communist views in general have mountains of problems themselves and it would be rather off topic to go into them. But are you honestly ignoring the fact that any attempt to legalize here are met with people quoting bible verses to defend their homophobic views

PickledLime

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, I tell those willing to listen to the Christian gospel whatever they need to do to please God.

As the Bible quote I have been lately signing with shows, you fall into the fornicators category ( assuming neither of you are married - in which case you would be among the adulterers)

I respect your opinion because everyone is entitled to their own, but unequivocally reject it as complete bunkum.

Seeing as i am not willing to listen to listen to Christian gospel (more to the point, i was brought up in a Christian household, decided to investigate it further and chose to renounce it) and view the Bible as a work of fiction, myself and my girlfriend are not among any adulterers.

efb

PDN wrote: »

No, it would not be wrong at all. According to biblical teaching that is a sin, just as much as if two loving, consenting adults of opposite sexes (if not married to each other) have sexual intercourse.

Christians also believe it is a sin for people to pray to idols.

Jews and Muslims also think it is a sin to eat a bacon sandwich.

We may or may not agree with each religion's opinion of what constitutes a sin. However, I have the good manners to respect the beliefs of the Jew and Muslim and not to pick pointless arguments by trolling about bacon sandwiches in the Islam Forum.

If I want to become a Muslim or a Jew then that would involve adopting their rules. Since I have no desire to convert to either of those religions, it isn't really any of my business whether they have a bit of a thing against bacon.

Just so long as they don't interefere with my right to eat a bacon sandwich if i choose.

Would this mean you would support a referendum for gay people to enter a civil marraige?

Ciaran0

wolfsbane wrote: »

We are born with a twisted nature, and grow up to sin in various ways. No one has to teach us to be selfish, to lie or steal, etc. It just comes naturally. 'Fallen-nature-ally'.

Actually I think you'll find that lying and stealing and selfishness come from bad parenting. That's nurture. Being gay however is nature.

Ciaran0

efb wrote: »

Would this mean you would support a referendum for gay people to enter a civil marraige?

I think, rather than use the word marriage, which many Christians feel is a tradition which belongs to their religion, we should just upgrade what we already have in civil partnerships to grant the same rights as a marriage would. That way, Christians could have their holy sacrament, in all its sanctity, and gay people could still have the same rights.

wolfsbane

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Wolfsbane.. your translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 is questionable

The bible does not say homosexuals won't inherit the kingdom of God, "Its men who sleep with men" In Latin who won't inherit the kingdom of God. Or St.Paul would have used the word ἀρσενοκοῖται



Just making a point on the text of your quoted scripture.

arsenokoitēs
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G733&t=KJV

μαλακός
[URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?
Strongs=G3120&t=KJV"]http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3120&t=KJV[/URL]

Interesting phrase you used, men who sleep with men. It answers to the description of homosexuality in Romans 1:
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.


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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

wolfsbane

Ciaran0 wrote: »

Actually I think you'll find that lying and stealing and selfishness come from bad parenting. That's nurture. Being gay however is nature.

I've observed the best of parents finding their son/daughter lying, stealing, being selfish. Starts as soon as they can express themselves.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

wolfsbane

PickledLime wrote: »

I respect your opinion because everyone is entitled to their own, but unequivocally reject it as complete bunkum.

Seeing as i am not willing to listen to listen to Christian gospel (more to the point, i was brought up in a Christian household, decided to investigate it further and chose to renounce it) and view the Bible as a work of fiction, myself and my girlfriend are not among any adulterers.

Hmm. So believing there is nothing wrong with stealing or rape would mean you are not a thief or a rapist?

Refusing to recognise the court does not mean you are innocent of the crime.


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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Ciaran0

wolfsbane wrote: »

I've observed the best of parents finding their son/daughter lying, stealing, being selfish. Starts as soon as they can express themselves.

And if you keep observing as the children grow up you'll see that with good parenting the lying, stealing and selfishness won't continue into adulthood.

wolfsbane

doctoremma wrote: »

Is your civil and religious liberty NOT enshrined in law? Which parts would you like to see formalised in law?

The governing elite seem determined to ban Christians and others from teaching that homosexuality is immoral. They seem set on indoctrinating our kids with the idea that it is moral.

I've no problem with them being told it is legal and that the homosexuals must have their liberty respected as much as the rest of us. But teaching homosexuality is moral and forbidding others to teach it is immoral is contrary to civil and religious liberty.

Same goes for fornication and adultery.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

doctoremma

Ciaran0 wrote: »

I think, rather than use the word marriage, which many Christians feel is a tradition which belongs to their religion, we should just upgrade what we already have in civil partnerships to grant the same rights as a marriage would. That way, Christians could have their holy sacrament, in all its sanctity, and gay people could still have the same rights.

I don't see any reason why the word 'marriage' belongs to Christianity?

And you're advocating a 'separate but equal' policy?

wolfsbane

Ciaran0 wrote: »

And if you keep observing as the children grow up you'll see that with good parenting the lying, stealing and selfishness won't continue into adulthood.

Indeed, such expressions will be usually be restrained or erased. All I was saying was that we are by nature morally twisted.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

doctoremma

wolfsbane wrote: »

The governing elite seem determined to ban Christians and others from teaching that homosexuality is immoral. They seem set on indoctrinating our kids with the idea that it is moral.

I've no problem with them being told it is legal and that the homosexuals must have their liberty respected as much as the rest of us. But teaching homosexuality is moral and forbidding others to teach it is immoral is contrary to civil and religious liberty

I've never been taught in any context that homosexuality is either moral or immoral. Have you? I mean, have you been taught explicitly that homosexuality is moral?