Can you be racist against someone of your own race?

mariano rivera

This came up in a conversation I had last night with 'er indoors'


John Amaechi (A former NBA basketballer and anti-racism campaigner) ,speaking on the BBC’s website, said about the term 'choc ice'


“It is the idea that a black person is black only in skin colour but inside they are really white. It’s a highly derogatory term. It’s a dangerous term because it allows black boys especially but black people in general, to believe that there is a way of being black that is somehow distinct from being white. There are people that think if you don’t wear a certain type of clothing or listen to a certain type of music you’re not really black. It’s a really dangerous thing. There are black boys who do less well in school because they believe by doing well there, they are acting white. To me, this is devastating for black boys and black people everywhere. It’s a deeply offensive term with racial connotations.”


Rio Ferdinand called (or agreed when someone tweeted) that Ashley Cole is a choc ice


Both are Black men


Did Rio Ferdinand racially insult Ashley Cole or did he just insult him?

And as such:

Can you be racist against your own race?

chin_grin

Same race calls same race some racial slur = in jest.

Other race calls different race racial slur = racist.

Therein lies the rub.

biko

Duggy747

No you can't be racist against you're own race, unless a black guy joined the KKK.

People need to grow the fùck up and stop being offended at the littlest of things.

seamus

If anything it's racist against white people because it implies that "acting white" is something to be ashamed of. It's the black equivalent of the bigot's cry of "West Brit".
I do agree with the commenter though that it's dangerous socially because it reinforces a racial divide, which can only be a bad thing for everyone.

And yes, it is possible to be racist against your own race. Racism is the belief that one or more races are inferior to one or more other races. There are plenty of cases where black people believe themselves inferior, or indeed where white people believe themselves inferior.
Irish people have been guilty of being anti-Irish for a long time. We spend a lot of time convincing ourselves that foreign nationalities are better people than we are and don't have the same problems that we have.
Any time someone says that Ireland is good in one area, you get a whole wash of people jumping down your throat about drunken lazy paddies.

Same with all -isms. Really. There are plenty of examples of women being sexist against women and saying that they should stay at home and raise the kids.

SharpshooterTom

There is no such thing as race.

We are all from the human race, different colours and sizes but fundementally from the same race.

El Weirdo

Of course you can.

If a black guy owned a company and refused to employ other black people solely on the basis of their skin colour, that would be racist, no?

crazy cabbage

I dont know but i have a ginger friend that slags the **** out of ginger people. It is funny as hell

:pac:

Tombi!

Of course you can.

The sterotype of the self-hating Jew for example. I know Jews arent' a race but you get me.

Personally, hate every fúckin white guy out there. Most importantly myself. I'm a racist príck towards myself and I'm proud of it

Actually on a serious note: I did know a lad that was black/white and he was the most racist little shít I ever met.
If he was with blacks, he hated whites. If he was with whites, he hated blacks.
Something funny about seeing a kid that's fairly dark skinned and calling someone a ni**er. And by funny, I mean "he must have issues".

RaRaRasputin

What a load of nonsense...

Who claims that "choc ice" has to be white inside? As far as I know you can get it with chocolate filling too.

The whole argument is nothing but bulls**t. If black boys deliberately refrain from trying to do achieve their best in school because they don't want to be associated with white boys that rather shows something about the attitude in their black community.

Madam_X

seamus wrote: »

Irish people have been guilty of being anti-Irish for a long time. We spend a lot of time convincing ourselves that foreign nationalities are better people than we are and don't have the same problems that we have.
Any time someone says that Ireland is good in one area, you get a whole wash of people jumping down your throat about drunken lazy paddies.

And thick. Indeed, Irish people who are oblivious to the extremely glaring irony of being Irish and looking down on Irish people are pretty thick all right.

There are plenty of examples of women being sexist against women and saying that they should stay at home and raise the kids.

I personally don't think that's a sexist view (depends on how it's phrased I guess) but yes, some of the stuff women say about other women is classic! "Women are such bitches!" Well if we are, you're not exception love!

Tombi!

Onixx wrote: »

I personally don't think that's a sexist view (depends on how it's phrased I guess) but yes, some of the stuff women say about other women is classic! "Women are such bitches!" Well if we are, you're not exception love!

My favourite has to be "I don't have other girl friends because they're bitches". Okay, that's fine. Then you're about to head out and meet your friends with the gf and she spots another girl and says:
"Why is he bringing his gf tonight? I'm the only girl of the group".

I love the irony that some people come out with. It really makes you wonder how they can get dressed in the mornings.

prinz

mariano rivera wrote: »

Can you be racist against your own race?

The most vocally racist people I have ever come across frequently used racist language, such n****r etc against members of their own race. It's important to remember that 'racist' terms often go beyond strictly skin-colour into attitude, education level, how hardworking you are etc. So yes, it is possible to use well known racist terms against members of your own race, when you are referring to the broader connotations of the terms rather than restricting it to an insult about skin colour.

phasers

I hate whites

Tombi!

phasers wrote: »

I hate whites

Oi, that's only acceptable if you're not white.

We don't too kindly to self-hating racists around here! :mad:

phasers

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Oi, that's only acceptable if you're not white.

We don't too kindly to self-hating racists around here! :mad:

Whatever you white bastard

biko

Duggy747 wrote: »

No you can't be racist against you're own race, unless a black guy joined the KKK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Q9NSzQj5M
No it's not Clayton Bigsby

woodoo

Duggy747 wrote: »

No you can't be racist against you're own race, unless a black guy joined the KKK.

People need to grow the fùck up and stop being offended at the littlest of things.

Britain has gone mad now about those things. Talk now too that the police are looking into it.

Yet in another part of the UK people can burn national flags, effigies of dead people and foreign politicians (Polish). March provocatively through neighbourhoods etc and nothing is done. .

woodoo

phasers wrote: »

Whatever you white bastard

Shut up paddy.

Dubhlinner

I'm guessing Rio Ferdinand called Ash Cole that because he stood up for John Terry.

Very silly comment to be making. Completely agree with Amaechi

Lawrence1895

Duggy747 wrote: »

No you can't be racist against you're own race, unless a black guy joined the KKK.

People need to grow the fùck up and stop being offended at the littlest of things.

I would love to see that, tbh

But to answer the question in the OP, the answer is No. 'Racism' implies two different (ethnic) origins, such as Irish/Non Irish, Black/White, etc.

SocSocPol

Any person who treats another person or group of people less favourably because of their race is a racist, simle as, easy to understand.
The race of the perpatrator is not the issue it is the perpetrators decison to to discrimate against members of a particular race that makes it racism.

SocSocPol

woodoo wrote: »

Britain has gone mad now about those things. Talk now too that the police are looking into it.

Yet in another part of the UK people can burn national flags, effigies of dead people and foreign politicians (Polish). March provocatively through neighbourhoods etc and nothing is done. .

Why are they burning dead Polish politicians?

ruthloss

Does Dubliners calling me a 'Bogger' count as racist?:rolleyes:

Wacker The Attacker

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

There is no such thing as race.

We are all from the human race, different colours and sizes but fundementally from the same race.

D'ya think?

Tombi!

ruthloss wrote: »

Does Dubliners calling me a 'Bogger' count as racist?:rolleyes:

No, it's called a very accurate description. :P

Wacker The Attacker

ruthloss wrote: »

Does Dubliners calling me a 'Bogger' count as racist?:rolleyes:

No thats true

Wacker The Attacker

If you hate everyone equally does that count as Racism?

woodoo

I don't believe you can be racist against your own race

Wacker The Attacker

Can it be said that the majority of people you'll learn to dislike in life will be those you've spent the most time around.

In the majority of cases these will be people from your own country

Roadend

woodoo wrote: »

I don't believe you can be racist against your own race

Only a honkey would think that

ruthloss

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

No, it's called a very accurate description. :P

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

No thats true

Oh that's o.k. then, I abhor racism in all it's forms.:rolleyes:

Tombi!

ruthloss wrote: »

Oh that's o.k. then, I abhor racism in all it's forms.:rolleyes:

Good lad, now go milk some cows.

Sorry :pac:

woodoo

Roadend wrote: »

Only a honkey would think that

Hey Cracker

Wacker The Attacker

ruthloss wrote: »

Oh that's o.k. then, I abhor racism in all it's forms.:rolleyes:

youre racist against racists

ruthloss

I'm donning the wellies as we speak..oh, and I'm a woman---blast ya!:D

Tombi!

ruthloss wrote: »

I'm donning the wellies as we speak..oh, and I'm a woman---blast ya!:D

Oh a woman eh?

How can I put this...

Keep in mind I'm from Dublin so: OI LOVE YOU WANNA RIDE ME IN THE ALLEY, YEAH?!

There we go, romancing the boggers, Dublin style

DEFTLEFTHAND

'Self hating Jew'? The Ryan Gosling film The Believer focuses on this theme.

Zebra3

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

'Self hating Jew'? The Ryan Gosling film The Believer focuses on this theme.

Well, the jews are people who believe in judaism.

They are no more a race than muslims or catholics.

Higher

Surely the term 'choc ice' is racist against whites, no?

It essentially implies that being white is something to be ashamed of.

Why hasn't the media even mentioned this?

Tombi!

Higher wrote: »

Surely the term 'choc ice' is racist against whites, no?

It essentially implies that being white is something to be ashamed of.

Why hasn't the media even mentioned this?

I bolded the reason why nobody cares in the media.

Capt'n Midnight

it's like venn diagrams racist / bigot / xenophobe

Here the travelling community are the same race as us, in the UK they aren't.

Anyway racist is just another label

PrincessLola

SocSocPol wrote: »

Any person who treats another person or group of people less favourably because of their race is a racist, simle as, easy to understand.

white people are so lame :pac:

Seriously though, I've always understood racism as 'power plus prejudice'.
I know thats not the dictionary definition, but dictionaries are, like, part of the system man

I just don't really think its the place for white people to tell minorities to to feel about descrimination, or the definition of racism.

Chuck Stone

Does anyone else want to get a choc-ice after reading this thread?

I don't even like choc-ices all that much but I think I'm going to get me one.

Wibbs

seamus wrote: »

There are plenty of cases where black people believe themselves inferior, or indeed where white people believe themselves inferior.

An experiment in the US showed this quite well. They got different groups to have email conversations with different strangers for a few weeks and they found that African Americans consistently "dumbed down" their vocabulary if they thought they were emailing a fellow Black, but would use more complex vocabulary if they thought they were emailing a White American. Interestingly White's showed no such bias in vocab based on who they thought they were conversing with.

Wibbs

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

There is no such thing as race.

We are all from the human race, different colours and sizes but fundementally from the same race.

Though the "politcally sensitive" viewpoint it's not quite accurate. "Races", or sub groups of humanity do exist, in general breaking down along broadly racial lines. These different populations have different physical features(not just skin colour) and different genetic legacies. For example Europeans and Asians have Neandertal genes, Africans do not. In south east Asia people have even older archaic hominid genes going on on top of that. Re Neandertal genes, the levels so far discovered run up to a maximum of around 4%. That's quite a lot, given the differences between us and say chimpanzees is trotted out at not much above 1%. Of course it's not the % but what genes are involved and how they're expressed, but yep sub sub species of humans do exist. We're certainly not as homogenous as once thought, though not nearly as different as once thought either. The diffs average out and are nothing in the face of our similarities.

Oranage2

Interesting enough topic.

I think it stems back to hundreds of years of slavery, slaves only because of their skin colour. Also during slave times lighter skinned blacks had it easier.

So the importance of skin colour is still an issue with black people as slavery wasnt abolished that long ago.


It's something similar here with years of religious divide when I tell people I'm protestant I get the ole eye brow raise as if there is something different about me.

Duggys Housemate

SocSocPol wrote: »

Why are they burning dead Polish politicians?

he said effigies of Polish flags and effigies of polish politicians. He just didnt repeat the effigies of, because he didn't have to.

ruthloss wrote: »

Does Dubliners calling me a 'Bogger' count as racist?:rolleyes:

Kinda I think. Its a form of superior tribalism.

woodoo wrote: »

I don't believe you can be racist against your own race

Of course you can.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Well, the jews are people who believe in judaism.

They are no more a race than muslims or catholics.

They are a race - an ethno-religious group. If they weren't the Nazis were just sectarians, not racists.

PrincessLola wrote: »

white people are so lame :pac:

Seriously though, I've always understood racism as 'power plus prejudice'.
I know thats not the dictionary definition, but dictionaries are, like, part of the system man

I just don't really think its the place for white people to tell minorities to to feel about descrimination, or the definition of racism.

The term white is problematic here, although I think power does matter. For instance I don't think it matters that there is a black policeman's organisation and no white orgaistation, as whites are in the majority and in power in Police forces. If whites had one then it could exclude backs from networking with bosses, which doesnt' happen with the minority group.

However White is meaningless in a British context; it includes the Welsh, Cornish, Scottish, Irish Catholics , who have to put up with famine songs, marches, and flag burnings, and the English working classes and poor, none are dominant groups.. Increasingly it is not even correct to say "whites" are dominant - in reality the top 1% - as Oxbridge is less white than the British population. Time for identity politics to regroup.

Wibbs wrote: »

Though the "politcally sensitive" viewpoint it's not quite accurate. "Races", or sub groups of humanity do exist, in general breaking down along broadly racial lines. These different populations have different physical features(not just skin colour) and different genetic legacies. For example Europeans and Asians have Neandertal genes, Africans do not. In south east Asia people have even older archaic hominid genes going on on top of that. Re Neandertal genes, the levels so far discovered run up to a maximum of around 4%. That's quite a lot, given the differences between us and say chimpanzees is trotted out at not much above 1%. Of course it's not the % but what genes are involved and how they're expressed, but yep sub sub species of humans do exist. We're certainly not as homogenous as once thought, though not nearly as different as once thought either. The diffs average out and are nothing in the face of our similarities.

Race is just a classification system. It is a social construct in that sense, but so is the difference scientists claim between mammals and reptiles.

blatantrereg

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

There is no such thing as race.

We are all from the human race, different colours and sizes but fundementally from the same race.

Wibbs wrote: »

Though the "politcally sensitive" viewpoint it's not quite accurate. "Races", or sub groups of humanity do exist, in general breaking down along broadly racial lines. These different populations have different physical features(not just skin colour) and different genetic legacies. For example Europeans and Asians have Neandertal genes, Africans do not. In south east Asia people have even older archaic hominid genes going on on top of that. Re Neandertal genes, the levels so far discovered run up to a maximum of around 4%. That's quite a lot, given the differences between us and say chimpanzees is trotted out at not much above 1%. Of course it's not the % but what genes are involved and how they're expressed, but yep sub sub species of humans do exist. We're certainly not as homogenous as once thought, though not nearly as different as once thought either. The diffs average out and are nothing in the face of our similarities.

Yep. Race: Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.

Saying there's no such thing as race is odd and silly. Like saying there is no such thing as cake.

It is definitely possible to be racist against your own race. Not sure if the Rio Ferdinand thing qualifies. That strikes me more as political correctness getting a bit silly.

I thought there was some Irish literary figure who was very anti-Irish but I can't find any reference to them, so I might be mistaken.

Black Mormons historically would have qualified as being racist against their own race - possibly black Mormons today would qualify too. Mormonism taught that they were black because they were cursed because of sin [mark of Cain/Curse of Ham], and banned them from the priesthood. The ban was lifted in 1978; I think they say that the curse was lifted too.

Capt'n Midnight

Higher wrote: »

Surely the term 'choc ice' is racist against whites, no?

It essentially implies that being white is something to be ashamed of.

Why hasn't the media even mentioned this?

There is a difference when an African-American and an Irish person says 'cream cracker'

Love2love

Two white friends, one will only go out with white men, one that will only go out with black men.