Rights of Landlord

chickensoup

I am hoping for a little advise here.

I am an accidental landlord (had to rent out my house as I couldn't sell it when I needed a bigger house).

I decided to enlist the services of a letting agent in the belief that paying someone to manage the property would mean I would have the minimum of headaches and in essence have someone deal with the problems on my behalf.

the situation I find myself in now is becoming painful. The letting agent got a tenant in who was in receipt of social welfare, which was due to be paid to us directly along with a top up from the tenant herself.

From the start of the tenancy we have had problems, even though the tenant is a 'lone parent' her partner has been there since day one, which she has flat out denied is the case, despite concrete evidence from the neighbors. This might not be a problem for many landlords how ever, the partner would most definitely not be someone who I would ever consider letting a property to. The lease states quite clearly that anyone residing at the address must be named on the lease and the landlord notified in writing should there be changes.

Anyway, that aside, this 'visitor' has attracted complaints from the neighbors for antisocial behavior etc ... at this stage I am getting calls and texts from my former neighbors on a weekly basis - my tenants are making life hell for my neighbors.

The tenant also caused delays with the social welfare that is resulting in a delay in us getting paid .. in effect we have not received a single payment from them since the tenancy commenced.

To date we have had to get the letting agent to issue:

1 - Letter reminding the tenant that all residents must be named on the lease
2 - Warning as to a specific incident of anti-social behavior
3 - 14 day notice of arrears (which has expired and still no payment)
4 - Hand delivered notice of termination -28days (after the 14 day notice)

My problem is that the letting agent has more or less told me there is nothing I can do. The tenant will in his words 'dig her heels in' and refuse to move.

It apparently takes 8 months or so to get a hearing with the PRTB and another 6 weeks for a determination order and god know how long after that to actually get my house back.

I don't trust the letting agent one bit, I get this feeling he is more concerned about the tenant as he had looked after a previous tenancy for her. He is trying to convince me to withdraw the 28 day notice as it 'can't really be enforced'

I am at my wits end wondering what protection there is for landlords in this country .. I have done everything by the book yet I have to walk on egg shells for the fear of being taken to the cleaners by a tenant who won't play by any rules.

If they refuse to leave, I could be out of pocket for 12 months while someone else lives off me.

At this stage I would prefer to give the house to charity rather than have a chancer take me for a ride on it.

Has anyone any experience as to how situations like this actually play out? Am I up the creek with out a paddle .....

Actor

I know someone who had a tenant in the house for 18 months without paying rent. letters -> PRTB -> PRTB appeal -> solicitor all to no avail.

Ended up sending his son around with a few friends to get him out.

IMO, you're better off getting the tenant out using whatever means necessary and dealing with the potential consequences later. It's cheaper in the long run.

cgarrad

Wait till she is out, take off the hall door, remove the fuse board and remove a few meters of mains water pipe. If she is broke no way she can repair it. Your obviously not going to pay ;-)

Funnyonion79

Just in relation to this - I know you're supposed to do everything by the book but realistically, waiting 8 months just to get a hearing when your property could be trashed by this person who is not paying rent, is just a joke.

Hypothetically speaking - if you waited until she was out, changed the locks and packed up all her stuff and left it sitting outside the house (or left her a note telling her where she can collect it) - what could the possible repercussions be?

Especially if you got someone to video what you're doing so there would be clear evidence of what possessions she had left, a video of you packing them up etc - what would be the worst that she could do?

I'm just curious...

Ray Palmer

According to some people here you can evict somebody very quickly for antisocial behaviour. 7 days was the claim. Don't really believe it myself but might be worth calling the prtb about that.

chickensoup

well the PRTB are useless from the point of view of a landlord, they will not offer any advice, they just point you to the law.

I have been told a forceful eviction (changing the locks, cutting power or water) could result in a hefty compensation payment to the tenant and by the way she has been speaking she is fully aware of this.

Unfortunately the tenant is from a particular minority group and is living up to all the stereotypes of that grouping.

it just beggars belief that the system is so one-sided in favor of the tenant.

chickensoup

Ray Palmer wrote: »

According to some people here you can evict somebody very quickly for antisocial behaviour. 7 days was the claim. Don't really believe it myself but might be worth calling the prtb about that.

I am aware of that 7 day notice for anti-social behavior, however, the complaint has to be in writing and unfortunately the people making the complaint are not willing to put their names to any paperwork for fear of any potential reprisal from the individual concerned.

murphaph

chickensoup wrote: »

Has anyone any experience as to how situations like this actually play out?

We had a non-paying commercial tenant overhold our property for almost 2 years. We lost tens of thousands in rent by the time we got a court order for possession. Never got any of it and likely never will. Private rentals are not much different, except you have the added handicap of having to go through the useless PRTB (which you fund).

chickensoup wrote: »

Am I up the creek with out a paddle .....

If the tenant decides not to pay and not to leave, then yes you are. The PRTB have gone to court to get injunctions for "people" like that after they were thrown out by their exasperated landlords. The poor landlord then gets fined up to 10k per person on the lease as well as having lost x k in rent. The system is deeply flawed and it benefits nobody but chancers on both sides.

I genuinely wish you the best of luck. It sounds like these people "know their rights" so you should probably play this by the book or she'll make sure you get in even more trouble.

sunnysoutheast

chickensoup wrote: »

well the PRTB are useless from the point of view of a landlord, they will not offer any advice, they just point you to the law.

I have been told a forceful eviction (changing the locks, cutting power or water) could result in a hefty compensation payment to the tenant and by the way she has been speaking she is fully aware of this.

Unfortunately the tenant is from a particular minority group and is living up to all the stereotypes of that grouping.

it just beggars belief that the system is so one-sided in favor of the tenant.

Did you specify no social welfare/rent allowance in your instructions to the agent? If so then ask them to explain themselves.

In terms of practical advice I'd suggest you start to think about the unpalatable option of offering to pay the tenant to leave. This is what an ex-work colleague of mine had to do a few years ago when he let his house out to a seemingly excellent tenant only to have him sub-let it to others and then disappear.

You can also expect your house to be wrecked and stripped of anything of scrap value the longer this goes on, you can make this not happening a condition of any payment.

Any legal route is going to cost thousands and take months.

SSE

Sulla Felix

I honestly don't understand why if someone is in arrears are they not rendered non resident and subject to laws on trespassing. They're supposed to be paying you for the full enjoyment of their home, privacy etc. That's all fine. But seems when they don't pay they get the same entitlement. Something seems off with that to me.

djimi

Sulla Felix wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why if someone is in arrears are they not rendered non resident and subject to laws on trespassing. They're supposed to be paying you for the full enjoyment of their home, privacy etc. That's all fine. But seems when they don't pay they get the same entitlement. Something seems off with that to me.

Agreed. There should be certain conditions which mean you lose any protection the tenancy act might give you, ie more than three months in arrears of rent, serious antisocial behavious etc. The situation the OP is in is a disgrace; the law is protecting this scumbag and there is nothing the OP can do about it.

Pkiernan

OP:

Unfortunately, due to the communists in Ireland, you have no rights as a landlord.

You will have to face up to the fact that you are very likely to lose a lot of money very soon. You could be losing your house if you can't afford the mortgage.

I had a scumbag RA tenant who shorted me every month, left without notice, and was nice enough to cause €2k worth of damage when he finally fooked off.

My recommendations:

1. Call the Social every day - and I mean every day - and tell them you are not getting your money.

2. Take the Letting Agency to Small Claims Court when your scum tenants rental arrears hit the €2000 mark. Sue them for breach of contract, and for failing to vet the tenant properly. You have nothing other than the filing fee to lose.

3. Follow up with the PRTB - unfortunately since the left wing scum of Ireland have ruined the country with their socialist-nanny-state-cradle-to-grave free money-for-lazy-people programmes - you have no other legal routes.

I myself am waiting for a legal case taken by a victimised LL against the PRTB - might do it myself when I get back to Ireland.

BostonB

PRTB and Letting Agents in my experience are pretty useless for the LL.

Victor

cgarrad wrote: »

Wait till she is out, take off the hall door, remove the fuse board and remove a few meters of mains water pipe. If she is broke no way she can repair it. Your obviously not going to pay ;-)

Advocating illegal behaviour isn't acceptable.

the_syco

Two questions;

Can you bring the letting agent to court for not paying you rent due?

Can you get an eviction notice for failure to pay rent?

chickensoup

the_syco wrote: »

Two questions;

Can you bring the letting agent to court for not paying you rent due?

Can you get an eviction notice for failure to pay rent?

The letting agent does not owe me rent .. unfortunately the letting agent is only that 'an agent' acting on my behalf .. So I am owed money from the tenant.

Getting an eviction notice for failure to pay rent is the hard part. The only legal course of action is via the PRTB, which takes about 8 months to get a hearing and then they make a determination order. In other words then telling the tenant to get out. If the tenant still refuses to leave you then are left with going to court to get a court order and this is a money pit.

I can see now why some landlords would use other methods to get their property back. Already I have had offers for a 'phone number' which would have them out in a matter of days, but knowing the way the tenant would act action like that could leave me liable to up to 20k in compensation.

Zamboni

I'm not advocating it but it appears quite clear that from a financial perspective, the illegal eviction route appears to be the lesser of two evils in this case.
Only one tenant on the lease to potentially claim compensation circa €10k versus untold time period of unpaid rent.

RATM

Hang on a sec, isn't there a bunch of conditions under which a landlord can terminate a lease ? With one of them being that you are making the property of use to yourself or a family member ? I'm pretty sure that stands , all you'd have to do is send them a registered letter saying you are terminating the lease within 28 days, referencing the piece of law that permits you to do so.

Then either move back in yourself for a bit or let a family member do so. I don't think the law stipulates any minimum amount of time a family member has to occupy it before it is rented on the private market again.

I might be missing something in all this but I did once have to move out of an apartment after 3.5 years continuous stay because the landlord son was beginning university and was taking it over for himself. I was annoyed as I'd always paid the rent on time and kept the place well. But the rules came down on the side of my landlord so I had to move on, despite not wanting to :mad:

BostonB

You could suggest they move out and you won't have to contact SW/HSE about their non payment of rent. Though of course you will regardless. In my limited experience once the tenants were reported and money cut off, they moved to another area to re-apply for benefits. Of course they left a big mess behind, took a bunch of stuff including all the light bulbs. But once they leave is the main thing.

BostonB

RATM wrote: »

Hang on a sec, isn't there a bunch of conditions under which a landlord can terminate a lease ?...:

Yes but if they refuse to move, theres very little legally you can do about it, that doesn't take a long time, and a lot of money.

chickensoup

RATM wrote: »

Hang on a sec, isn't there a bunch of conditions under which a landlord can terminate a lease ? With one of them being that you are making the property of use to yourself or a family member ? I'm pretty sure that stands , all you'd have to do is send them a registered letter saying you are terminating the lease within 28 days, referencing the piece of law that permits you to do so.

Then either move back in yourself for a bit or let a family member do so. I don't think the law stipulates any minimum amount of time a family member has to occupy it before it is rented on the private market again.

I think you are missing my point ...

legally I am entitled to do a whole lot of stuff:

- Issue termination notices
- Move back in
- etc .. etc ...

But if the tenant decides that they don't want to move there is shag all I can do.


At this stage I feel like setting fire to the place

BostonB

Pointless getting emotional about it. Its a business. Sometime you make a loss. The key is to get them out soon as possible so you lose as little as possible.

the_syco

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/local_authority_and_social_housing/notice_to_quit_and_eviction.html

Also for some info; http://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/termination-of-a-tenancy-by-a-landlord/

StillWaters

A friend, who is a solicitor and a LL always keeps the ESB bill in his name. He says sure, sometimes he gets stuck with a bill, but in cases like this he can just get the leccy cut off.
do you have any utilities in your name?

murphaph

RATM wrote: »

Hang on a sec, isn't there a bunch of conditions under which a landlord can terminate a lease ? With one of them being that you are making the property of use to yourself or a family member ? I'm pretty sure that stands , all you'd have to do is send them a registered letter saying you are terminating the lease within 28 days, referencing the piece of law that permits you to do so.

Then either move back in yourself for a bit or let a family member do so. I don't think the law stipulates any minimum amount of time a family member has to occupy it before it is rented on the private market again.

I might be missing something in all this but I did once have to move out of an apartment after 3.5 years continuous stay because the landlord son was beginning university and was taking it over for himself. I was annoyed as I'd always paid the rent on time and kept the place well. But the rules came down on the side of my landlord so I had to move on, despite not wanting to :mad:

And when the tenant refuses to move out? You can send all the bits of paper you want but some people know the system and they know 100% that if they just sit there that they will be waiting at least 18 months (best case) before you show up at the door with the County Sheriff to physically and legally drag them out. You then have a piece of paper from a court that says this person owes you x thousand but they have no fixed assets to go after and the best you'll get from the courts is an order for repayment, taking into account this person's "income". You'd get a repayment order of €10 a week from someone on the dole if you're lucky-ie, you never get your money back.

At least with commercial property there's no PRTB to add extra delay to getting your date in the district court. The PRTB are nothing but a money pit. A totally failed quango of ever there was one.

murphaph

StillWaters wrote: »

A friend, who is a solicitor and a LL always keeps the ESB bill in his name. He says sure, sometimes he gets stuck with a bill, but in cases like this he can just get the leccy cut off.
do you have any utilities in your name?

We did that in our commercial case and were severely reprimanded by the (idiot) judge for doing so when we (finally) got into the court to get our order.

Personally I would just move in with the tenant if at all possible. It's not an eviction so she can't claim for that. The tenant wouldn't have the peaceful enjoyment of the property but that's all they wouldn't have.

markpb

murphaph wrote: »

We did that in our commercial case and were severely reprimanded by the (idiot) judge for doing so when we (finally) got into the court to get our order.

Perhaps it would be better to let ESB cut the account off for non-payment than ask for the account to be closed? You can't be blamed for the lack of electricity and (I assume) you can't be reprimanded for not paying the bill when the tenant isn't paying it (through you).

murphaph

markpb wrote: »

Perhaps it would be better to let ESB cut the account off for non-payment than ask for the account to be closed? You can't be blamed for the lack of electricity and (I assume) you can't be reprimanded for not paying the bill when the tenant isn't paying it (through you).

We asked the ESB when would they cut it off for non payment (it was well in arrears as the tenant had also stopped paying them) and they said they didn't know but not "for some time yet", so we had supply disconnected at our instructions. I'd imagine the ESB are even slower to move on residential properties in arrears.

Funnyonion79

murphaph wrote: »

StillWaters wrote: »

A friend, who is a solicitor and a LL always keeps the ESB bill in his name. He says sure, sometimes he gets stuck with a bill, but in cases like this he can just get the leccy cut off.
do you have any utilities in your name?

We did that in our commercial case and were severely reprimanded by the (idiot) judge for doing so when we (finally) got into the court to get our order.

Why did the judge reprimand you? If the bill was in your name then wouldn't you have every right to get the electricity disconnected.

With regards to changing the locks - would someone mind explaining how you could get a 20k fine for this? It's your property and the tenant is no longer paying rent, yet refuses to leave. Why can't you "take the property back" as such? How do they have rights once they stop paying rent?

Btw - I know the law mostly protects the tenant but I'm interested to know how the legalities of this actually work and how they are enforced.

Boombastic

Report her for being a 'lone parent' but having a partner stay & non receipt of rent allowance

StillWaters

murphaph wrote: »

StillWaters wrote: »

A friend, who is a solicitor and a LL always keeps the ESB bill in his name. He says sure, sometimes he gets stuck with a bill, but in cases like this he can just get the leccy cut off.
do you have any utilities in your name?

We did that in our commercial case and were severely reprimanded by the (idiot) judge for doing so when we (finally) got into the court to get our order.

Personally I would just move in with the tenant if at all possible. It's not an eviction so she can't claim for that. The tenant wouldn't have the peaceful enjoyment of the property but that's all they wouldn't have.

It might not work as well in a commercial case as the tenant could just get a generator, but a residential tenant is likely to leave after a few days of no power and move onto the next poor LL.