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Today's infrastructure announcement - why no public transport?
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...most of which can (and should) be done without any need for BRT. They wouldn't be substantial improvements regardless, but when you strip out the few that actually need BRT works, its close to nothing without entirely new vehicles.
Ok.
You think some of the corner stones of BRT "wouldn't be substantial improvements regardless."
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.By having a far better road network to begin with. Crying "straw man" when a major problem is pointed out isn't a good debating tactic.
First: I did not cry "straw man" when a major problem was pointed out. I yelled it when you came up with a straw man argument with no backing.
Secondly: The apparently restrictive road network in Dublin City Centre is exactly why we should give further space over to other modes so people can move around more efficiently.
And lastly: I see we're now on the "We're different!" argument! "We're different," people said in Copenhagen, "We're not Italians we don't sit or eat out side," they said when their massive pedestrian zone was proposed. It worked out a bit differently:
Grafton Street without cars will never work, Dublin is different!
The bus gate will not work, Dublin is different!
DublinBikes will not work, Dublin is different!
And when I brought this up with the bus gate debate, I was told the bus gate is different than Grafton Street. I'm sure you're going to say all of the above is different to BRT.
Take a look at a map of Dublin. Realise your idea isn't going to work. We don't have streets wide enough or with "nearby" areas for loading in anywhere where this kind of provision would be any use.
I'm not seeing the problem. Let's wait and see what the NTA's consultants come up with before I get the crayons out myself on Google Maps
Space isn't that much of an issue when you're concerned about moving people and not about keeping them in cars.
Businesses in the limited pedestrianised areas already have serious trouble with loading access, particularly smaller ones in constrained buildings - which we have quite a lot of.
Difficult but worth it apparently -- or at least it seems that way from the actions of these businesses.On-street BRT in suburbs is ridiculous to the level that I do hope you'd not even try and suggest it;
Tell that to Nantes and other cities!Did you actually think this through before suggesting it, or are you just annoyed that some private motorists are going to benefit from this plan, and Dublin cyclists aren't?
Again: I'm concerned about the best ways to move people around - and you seem overly concerned about keeping people in cars?
I don't really view people in the way you do. While a cyclist is a good way to describe people when they cycle, the vast bulk of cyclists are also motorists and bus users and so on.
Re spending on Dublin -- do we really need to recap on how much of the population works here or how many work here? Or that congestion is a problem in the downturn and we're looking for growth and making thing attractive for investment?0 -
First: I did not cry "straw man" when a major problem was pointed out. I yelled it when you came up with a straw man argument with no backing.
No straw man present. It was cried when you had troubles, nothing more.Secondly: The apparently restrictive road network in Dublin City Centre is exactly why we should give further space over to other modes so people can move around more efficiently.
Which will kill the city. Retailers need a lot more than people - who appear to be able to access them perfectly well as it stands - to survive. Paying twice as much for a 5am delivery, not counting your own staffing costs to accept said delivery, isn't any way to survive.And lastly: I see we're now on the "We're different!" argument! "We're different," people said in Copenhagen, "We're not Italians we don't sit or eat out side," they said when their massive pedestrian zone was proposed. It worked out a bit differently:
What, precisely, does Dublin's 600+ year old street layout have to do with food???Grafton Street without cars will never work, Dublin is different!
There were still traffic alternatives then. BRT through the centre will leave no traffic alternatives. And have you seen how many units are empty on Grafton Street vs other streets now?The bus gate will not work, Dublin is different!
Bus gate causes serious, serious problems for commercial access to businesses.And when I brought this up with the bus gate debate, I was told the bus gate is different than Grafton Street. I'm sure you're going to say all of the above is different to BRT.
Of course it is.I'm not seeing the problem. Let's wait and see what the NTA's consultants come up with before I get the crayons out myself on Google Maps
By all means get the crayons out - I believe you won't as you'll be shown multitudinous problems straight away.Space isn't that much of an issue when you're concerned about moving people and not about keeping them in cars.
You may drop the "cars" line. Businesses cannot live without adequate loading access.Tell that to Nantes and other cities!
I suspect Nantes has suburbs of significantly higher density and wider streets than we do.Again: I'm concerned about the best ways to move people around - and you seem overly concerned about keeping people in cars?
Again, you may drop the "cars" argument - you know full well that's not what position I'm debating from, useful a crutch as it is for you.Re spending on Dublin -- do we really need to recap on how much of the population works here or how many work here? Or that congestion is a problem in the downturn and we're looking for growth and making thing attractive for investment?
Where did I say anything about how much was being spent in Dublin? Oh look, the first actual straw man.0 -
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Secondly: The apparently restrictive road network in Dublin City Centre is exactly why we should give further space over to other modes so people can move around more efficiently.
Which will kill the city. Retailers need a lot more than people - who appear to be able to access them perfectly well as it stands - to survive. Paying twice as much for a 5am delivery, not counting your own staffing costs to accept said delivery, isn't any way to survive.
Loading access can be made to work, along with routes to carparks.And lastly: I see we're now on the "We're different!" argument! "We're different," people said in Copenhagen, "We're not Italians we don't sit or eat out side," they said when their massive pedestrian zone was proposed. It worked out a bit differently:
What, precisely, does Dublin's 600+ year old street layout have to do with food???
Both are examples of weak claims that "we're different" which are later proven wrong.And have you seen how many units are empty on Grafton Street vs other streets now?
Trying to put that down to any thing but the games landlords are playing trying to keep rents high is a joke.
I'd be shocked if massively changing streets did not bring up a multitude of problems. Just because something would be hard to do does not mean you should not do it.
It would be complex and hard to do, but still worth doing.
And loading access can be provided and would need careful planning. There's loads of solutions we can use which are proven to work in the confined spaces in some Dutch cities and cities elsewhere.
We have a mix, just as they have have (which works out to include sections of BRT with centre, single-lane two-way running where needed). BRT however is not needed everywhere or nor would it work everywhere.
And as I said before -- if there are larger roads on a corridor, a BRT route should only should come off the larger roads where it has proirty.
I'm not debating against loading access if that's what you're getting at.
The cars argument is a very valid one given how they ineffectual congest the city. Leaving so much space to a mass amount of cars does not work now and just can't work at the city grows -- it's not an effective use of space or means of moving people around.Where did I say anything about how much was being spent in Dublin? Oh look, the first actual straw man.
You said something like I only wanted spending on *Dublin* cyclists.0 -
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Sure, you've stated reasons, but my last point was that you have given little or nothing to quantified or back any of the reasons up and when I explained why your reasons were flawed, you just switched to even more general statements.
I can't agree that BRT would be yet another thing which will apprently "kill" the city, but I think we should have agreed to disagree along time ago. 0 -
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