Teachers pay again

Dermighty

Welease wrote: »

It probably wouldn't happen if people in this country (on both sides) would actually produce the real data with relevant information instead of producing figures that are intended mislead and benefit their argument based on omitting specific data..

Case in point above.. either the 44% or 80% contains allowances, pensions etc or not. The information exists and is accessible.. time to start using it.

there are lies, damn lies and statistics

n97 mini

antoobrien wrote: »

primary level
Teachers pay (including supervision & cost of subs etc): €2,050,404,000

Second level & further education
Teachers pay: €1,148,095

Primary schools have almost double the paybill of secondary. I wonder why is that.

antoobrien

n97 mini wrote: »

Primary schools have almost double the paybill of secondary. I wonder why is that.

More schools.

In Galway city there are 28 (possibly more) primary schools, there about a dozen 12 secondary schools (not including the fee paying schools).

Sleepy

Welease wrote: »

True.. but we could look to amalgamate these schools into one, and provide seperate religious lessons (if that was an issue) with mobile religious teachers where necessary. At present we pay for multiple teachers and buildings etc. for quarter full classes. It won't solve world hunger, but it frees up some resources.

No need for any complication, just set the new school up as an Educate Together (or similar) and leave those who wish to indoctrinate their children to do so in their own time and at their own expense.

n97 mini

antoobrien wrote: »

More schools.

In Galway city there are 28 (possibly more) primary schools, there about a dozen 12 secondary schools (not including the fee paying schools).

What would be the ratio in Co Galway, excluding the city?

antoobrien

n97 mini wrote: »

What would be the ratio in Co Galway, excluding the city?

Google will know, knock yourself out.

But there is one thing to beware of when doing such unfair comparisons - Galway county is over 6,000 square kms. Plus there are a large number of (census classified) urban areas that will have schools - something other counties (e.g. Carlow) won't have.

Welease

Sleepy wrote: »

No need for any complication, just set the new school up as an Educate Together (or similar) and leave those who wish to indoctrinate their children to do so in their own time and at their own expense.

I'm just being nice...

Tipp Man

antoobrien wrote: »

More schools.

In Galway city there are 28 (possibly more) primary schools, there about a dozen 12 secondary schools (not including the fee paying schools).

That doesn't mean that the primary teacher wages are more in total than the secondary teacher wages.

Most secondary schools will have what 30-40 teachers in them - certainly in excess of 20 - by their very nature - speciliased subjects etc

antoobrien

Tipp Man wrote: »

That doesn't mean that the primary teacher wages are more in total than the secondary teacher wages.

Most secondary schools will have what 30-40 teachers in them - certainly in excess of 20 - by their very nature - speciliased subjects etc

That's true but each primary school needs a principal and teachers don't get paid based on speciality (or I'd be teaching maths/science).

Tipp Man

antoobrien wrote: »

The information is all in that link she provided. The gross figures for the education sector are:
Pay: €5,351,197,000
Pensions: €1,102,865,000
Total Budget: €8,062,710,000

primary level
Teachers pay (including supervision & cost of subs etc): €2,050,404,000
Pensions payments: 493,198

Second level & further education
Teachers pay: 1,148,095
Pensions payments: 351,131
Someone asked if the Minster's wages is paid from this - yup.

Are you sure about these numbers??

At the end of 2006 there was about 21,000 full time secondary and 26,000 primary teachers. Added to the secondary are about 5000 part timers - so the number of teachers in both levels is similar - or at least was back then

How then can primary wages be double secondary wages (in total)

http://www.statusireland.com/statistics/population/23/Number-of-Teachers-Teaching-in-Schools.html

antoobrien

Tipp Man wrote: »

Are you sure about these numbers??

Yup, I've copy pasted them, so naturally I've forgotten the extra 000 in some places as the figures are quoted in €000 (fixed). They're taken directly from the information provided from the head of INTO as quoted in the o.p. - http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/REV-2012-Final1.pdf

The figures are on the following pages:
pay - 21
pensions - 22
Primary & second level breakdowns - 116

Knock yourself out.

IMO the head of INTO is being disingenuous as 80% of the costs of DOE is directly attributable to pay and pensions, most of that is due to teachers.

lily09

I would have thought the reason the primary pay bill was higher was that children spend 8 years in primary school and 5 in secondary school.

rainbowtrout

lily09 wrote: »

I would have thought the reason the primary pay bill was higher was that children spend 8 years in primary school and 5 in secondary school.

Yes, coupled with the fact that a proportion of students drop out of school at second level which doesn't really happen in primary level.

rainbowtrout

antoobrien wrote: »

That's true but each primary school needs a principal and teachers don't get paid based on speciality (or I'd be teaching maths/science).

Secondary teachers don't get paid based on speciality either. Primary and secondary teachers are paid on the same salary scale.

n97 mini

lily09 wrote: »

I would have thought the reason the primary pay bill was higher was that children spend 8 years in primary school and 5 in secondary school.

That's 60% more time in primary, but the salaries amount to almost double.

lily09

n97 mini wrote: »

lily09 wrote: »

I would have thought the reason the primary pay bill was higher was that children spend 8 years in primary school and 5 in secondary school.

That's 60% more time in primary, but the salaries amount to almost double.

More small schools therefore more principals and deputy principals allowances
More small schools with smaller ptr.
More EFL teachers usually by the time they reached secondary school children have used their two yeas of support.
More emphasis on learning support and resource.
Secondary teachers not having full hours and not getting summer pay.
Just couple ideas off top of my head, figures are very different though.

n97 mini

Also, secondary schools teach more than 8 subjects, whereas in primary the one teacher has the class for the whole year.

lily09

n97 mini wrote: »

Also, secondary schools teach more than 8 subjects, whereas in primary the one teacher has the class for the whole year.

Primary school teach 11 subjects. There are a huge amount of teachers not n the classroom which accounts for the figures.

n97 mini

lily09 wrote: »

Primary school teach 11 subjects. There are a huge amount of teachers not n the classroom which accounts for the figures.

Hmm. One teacher teaches the class virtually all subjects in my son's school. This is common in primary and does not happen at 2nd level.

lily09

n97 mini wrote: »

lily09 wrote: »

Primary school teach 11 subjects. There are a huge amount of teachers not n the classroom which accounts for the figures.

Hmm. One teacher teaches the class virtually all subjects in my son's school. This is common in primary and does not happen at 2nd level.

What I meant are there are many teachers like efl, home school liason, learning support, resource , early start, supply scheme ( now scrapped) and other types. I do think there is a large discrepency and am only attempting to explain some of the figures.

ardmacha

Secondary teachers don't get paid based on speciality either. Primary and secondary teachers are paid on the same salary scale.

This is one respect in which Ireland differs from many European countries. Secondary teachers at leaving cert level would often get a higher salary in many places.

Tipp Man

antoobrien wrote: »

That's true but each primary school needs a principal and teachers don't get paid based on speciality (or I'd be teaching maths/science).

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Secondary teachers don't get paid based on speciality either. Primary and secondary teachers are paid on the same salary scale.

I didn't really write what i was thinking there

What i meant was that secondary teachers tend to only teach 1-3 subjects - so there will always be a minimum number of teachers in a secondary school - to teach the full subject range

A primary teachers teaches everything so the number of teachers needed in 1 spot is greatly reduced - in fact 1 is all that is needed.
Whether that is economical or not is another matter

Tipp Man

ardmacha wrote: »

This is one respect in which Ireland differs from many European countries. Secondary teachers at leaving cert level would often get a higher salary in many places.

They're being paid too much as it is - nevermind giving them more

If we even had qualified maths teachers teaching leaving cert maths then it would be a start

n97 mini

lily09 wrote: »

I do think there is a large discrepency and am only attempting to explain some of the figures.

As mentioned by someone earlier I would like to see the figures for principals etc for primary, as I suspect a large part of the cost is that there are far more primary schools than secondary.

Farmer Pudsey

n97 mini wrote: »

As mentioned by someone earlier I would like to see the figures for principals etc for primary, as I suspect a large part of the cost is that there are far more primary schools than secondary.

In a lot of secondary schools a number of teachers will be part time also not all pernament teachers have fulltime hours. I think that 22 hours a week is the maximum a Secondary teacher works. But say due to the class requirements you require 30 hours of history the fulltime teacher may have 18 hours of these so the second history teacher may only have 12 hours and unless there second subject is compatible with the school needs then this is all they get.

In primary all class teachers have fulltime hours unless they are covering sick leave, maternity leave or special leave so there are a way less teachers with part time jobs.

Class sizes in second level are lower on average I believe