Giving up on diesel, going back to petrol

eaglebhoy

208,000ish

volvoman480

BostonB wrote: »

I think they are getting you to buy a car in installments....

That's what good warranties are for!! It's all FOC...

Skatedude

I have to admit that i cant stand driving a diesel. The narrow power band is just a no no for me. I've gotten so used to a big petrol engine and i dont do a lot of miles so economy isnt too much of an issue.

But the 2 grand a year road tax is a pain.( 20 year old bmw 740)

Divorce Referendum

unkel wrote: »

Diesel causes cancer

But the greens couldn't care less. They only care about bringing CO2 (a compeltely harmless gas) down. To save the planet. :rolleyes:

CO2 is hardly completely harmless. If it is in high enough concentrations it can poison you.

Yakuza

I did the same as the OP, got a petrol version of my previous car. Noise, smoothness, power under acceleration all much better. Yes, it's not as good on the juice but with my mileage (I'd be lucky to do 6k (km) a year, mostly 5-6km commutes and a trip to Spain) I've no DPF, DMF or any modern diesel boll0x to worry about.

RED PASSION

Yakuza wrote: »

I did the same as the OP, got a petrol version of my previous car. Noise, smoothness, power under acceleration all much better. Yes, it's not as good on the juice but with my mileage (I'd be lucky to do 6k (km) a year, mostly 5-6km commutes and a trip to Spain) I've no DPF, DMF or any modern diesel boll0x to worry about.

out of interest how much more will you have to pay a year ie tax, fuel etc more than when you owned the diesel.

is the petrol a better car over the diesel if money was no object.:p

Popoutman

Skatedude wrote: »

The narrow power band is just a no no for me.

Funny you say that, but my mapped A4 tdi has a flat 130bhp power curve from 1900rpm through 4200rpm, over more than half of the rev range. It's a truly linear power curve. It's odd driving it if you expect the peaking power curve and flattish torque curve of an average petrol, but still easy to drive and overtake safely with. Managing 5.5 to 6.0 litres per 100 or so to work and back these days with a modification in my driving style.

Having said that, I'm on the lookout for a large straight 6 or V8 petrol, in addition to the MR2 and the Audi, ideally old enough for classic tax and classi insurance. I do like the large torque from diesels, and I'd like that wave of torque for a larger rev range.

The MR2 scratches the high revs high power itch and returns a huge fun factor that is missing in the diesel. I'd pick the Audi for any journey of any significant distance as it is just a much easier driving experience.

Horses for courses, each fuel type has advantages and disadvantages. And each to their own too!

Yakuza

RED PASSION wrote: »

out of interest how much more will you have to pay a year ie tax, fuel etc more than when you owned the diesel.

is the petrol a better car over the diesel if money was no object.:p

Tax costs:
They were both band C, as it turned out. My car (Qashqai+2) got a facelift and they tweaked the petrol engine down from band D to band C (it has stop-start as well), and the pre-facelift diesel was band C (the post-facelift diesel is band B now, but was 2k more to buy). The pre-facelift diesel 5-seater QQ was band B (same engine, but the +2 is heavier so the engine had to work harder to lug it around).

Insurance - I paid pretty much the same for a 1.6 petrol as I did last year for a 1.5 diesel.

Day to day commuting, I get about 8.5l/100km in the petrol and got about 7.0l/100km in the diesel (all stop-start driving and only 5-6km). I also do one long trip a year to Spain (roughly 2500km) and a few weekend spins to Wicklow on the M50

Fuel costs:
Petrol :
Commute - 12km @ 8.5 l/100km = 1.02 litres/commute * 200 commutes = 204 litres
Motorway trips - 3000 @ 6.0 l/100km (based on a few M50 trips) = 180 litres.
Total = 384l = €614 (@€;1.60 a litre)

Diesel:
Commute - 12km @ 7.0 l/100km = 0.84 litres/commute * 200 commutes = 168 litres
Motorway trips - 3000 @ 5.0 l/100km = 150 litres.
Total = 318l= €477(@€;1.50 a litre).

So, for my mileage, my petrol car is costing me approx €137 extra a year, or a little over €2.50 a week; well worth it in my book. My current car isn't the most exciting, but when the kids are bigger I'll remedy that with a petrol estate - I don't doubt that the emmisions-based tax advantages of diesels will be eroded away as the Government claws for more money from motorists, so hopefully there will be a return to petrol as the more popular car sold when I'm looking to change

As has been said before on these boards, while diesel cars are about the miles per gallon, big-engined petrol cars are about the smiles per gallon

ShiresV2

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Diesel for everyday driving are more usable and unless you are racing everywhere are a nicer drive.

In that regard I think that the the comparison should be naturally aspirated vs. turbo and not diesel vs. petrol as I believe it's the turbo that makes the small diesel engines (2.0ish and under) useable at low revs.

Stainless_Steel

I think it's great that lots of mupp....people prefer diesels nowadays. It pushed the second hand value of large petrol cars through the floor and I got myself a nice 2.5 ltr petrol 5 series that I never even dreamt I could afford.

Voodoomelon

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Diesel for everyday driving are more usable and unless you are racing everywhere are a nicer drive.

Do you really mean that? I mean really? To me, diesels are inferior in every single way you can think of, bar economics at a certain mileage cutoff.

sawfish

unkel wrote: »

They only care about bringing CO2 (a compeltely harmless gas) down. To save the planet. :rolleyes:

Hmmm. Completely harmless?

You should read this if you have a spare half an hour, (file attached also)

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/CarbonCycle/?src=eoa-features

Pkiernan

Diesel:



Petrol:

MuppetCheck

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Do you really mean that? I mean really? To me, diesels are inferior in every single way you can think of, bar economics at a certain mileage cutoff.

I really wouldn't agree with you there. Compare two identical cars like a Mondeo. One a 2 litre petrol, the other the turbo diesel. Having driven both the diesel has more usable performance for day to day driving.

I'm using the comparison of mere mortal, everyday cars here and not big bimmers. My own car on the motorway/national road is much more responsive than the petrol version and quieter too. That's a big plus for most people.

I'd love a big petrol instead of my diesel but for most normal 4 cylinder cars where the choice is petrol or turbo diesel of equivalent power the diesel is the easier drive.

MuppetCheck

ShiresV2 wrote: »

In that regard I think that the the comparison should be naturally aspirated vs. turbo and not diesel vs. petrol as I believe it's the turbo that makes the small diesel engines (2.0ish and under) useable at low revs.

The turbo doesn't make them usable. There is still a little lag. I agree it's not comparing like with like to but the majority of cars on sale the choice is n/a petrol or turbo diesel.

Tragedy

I personally think too many people focus on the fuel type and not the individual car/engine tbh.

E.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVa-_beJgIQ

S28382

I drive over 500kms a week and i would never consider getting a diesel, i dont mind spending the extra few quid on petrol the only time id ever have a diesel if i decide someday i want a van.

S28382

S28382 wrote: »

I drive over 500kms a week and i would never consider getting a diesel, i dont mind spending the extra few quid on petrol the only time id ever have a diesel if i decide someday i want a van.

I would call it madness doing 500kms every week in a petrol.

I do around that mileage some weeks and its a long drive so even more economical than a commute of 500kms and even doing it now and again is a killer on petrol. If I was doing it weekly I change to a diesel in a flash.

S28382

Samson Delightful Machine wrote: »

I would call it madness doing 500kms every week in a petrol.

I do around that mileage some weeks and its a long drive so even more economical than a commute of 500kms and even doing it now and again is a killer on petrol. If I was doing it weekly I change to a diesel in a flash.

Why is it madness, most of it is motorway driving, i spend about 70euro a week on petrol.

September1

I think you are very unfair to 80% of "muppets" who buy diesel cars. In recent years 09-11 mostly, new diesel cars were often same price as new as petrol cars and would usually brought saving in road tax. That means that even for someone doing 5000km per annum it would still make sense to go diesel, and with warranties going up to 5 years those days it would be a safe bet. When buying new vehicle the biggest cost is depreciation, and with current situation in Ireland there is a massive penalty on petrol cars. I'm pretty sure if OPs here would choose to overpay for petrol cars that could help a bit, but so far the attitude I see is "I'm happy to drive this petrol engine car I could not afford in normal market". I think soon 08 cars would be losing guarantees, getting problems with DMFs, DPFs and other TLAs and once a knowledge of real cost of ownership would become real knowledge, depreciation on petrol would lessen a bit. For now, most of cars, from financial point of view, make sense only to be powered by diesel - even if extremely low mileages are considered. I'm pretty sure that most of average second hand buyers would be more than happy to purchase low mileage vs high mileage diesel car, very likely to be happy yo pay a bit more for low mileage vehicle.

A minority of them have 5 year warranties.

torres3011

I recently bought a 2004 2.2 CDTI and it's a proper quick car with very little engine noise.

It is far better than the 2ltr petrol version imo and much more economical as well.

Nothing muppety about driving the right diesel.

ION08

I understand the whole economics perspective of Diesel VS Petrol (particularly when buying new) but to be fair, I think a lot of people are jumping on a diesel bashing band wagon here.

Especially the OP's comparison of 2 very different cars, in which he compares aspects of two separate cars ["Build quality and comfort"] which aren't even relevant to the fuel type.
(how about comparing a 1.6i Focus to a TDI B7 Passat instead :rolleyes: )

Anyway, you can also look at it this way. You have 4,000 euro to spend and you are doing 10-15k miles a year:

Your choices are as follows 03 2.0i Audi A4 with 80k or an 02 Audi A4 1.9 TDI with 110k ... You would be plain mad to go for the petrol equivalent. The A4 TDI is more economical, cheaper fuel, more torque and when it comes to selling it on you know it will be gone in a week and hold its value better.


Same point as Torres3011: when buying a second hand car, a 2.2CDTI Accord is definitely a better buy than a 2.0i Accord .. and you don't have to be doing "mega mileage" to realise that

Veloce

ION08 wrote: »

Anyway, you can also look at it this way. You have 4,000 euro to spend and you are doing 10-15k miles a year:

Your choices are as follows 03 2.0i Audi A4 with 80k or an 02 Audi A4 1.9 TDI with 110k ... You would be plain mad to go for the petrol equivalent.

I think you would be plain mad to buy a 10 year old diesel A4

ION08

Veloce wrote: »

I think you would be plain mad to buy a 10 year old diesel A4

Yeah well not all people that are considering diesel V petrol, can afford to buy new :rolleyes:

Veloce

September1 wrote: »

I think you are very unfair to 80% of "muppets" who buy diesel cars. In recent years 09-11 mostly, new diesel cars were often same price as new as petrol cars and would usually brought saving in road tax. That means that even for someone doing 5000km per annum it would still make sense to go diesel, and with warranties going up to 5 years those days it would be a safe bet. When buying new vehicle the biggest cost is depreciation, and with current situation in Ireland there is a massive penalty on petrol cars. I'm pretty sure if OPs here would choose to overpay for petrol cars that could help a bit, but so far the attitude I see is "I'm happy to drive this petrol engine car I could not afford in normal market". I think soon 08 cars would be losing guarantees, getting problems with DMFs, DPFs and other TLAs and once a knowledge of real cost of ownership would become real knowledge, depreciation on petrol would lessen a bit. For now, most of cars, from financial point of view, make sense only to be powered by diesel - even if extremely low mileages are considered. I'm pretty sure that most of average second hand buyers would be more than happy to purchase low mileage vs high mileage diesel car, very likely to be happy yo pay a bit more for low mileage vehicle.

So someone who does 5000km per year should fork out for a 2009-2011 diesel car? I hope your not a car salesman or a financial advisor for that matter

Veloce

ION08 wrote: »

Veloce wrote: »

I think you would be plain mad to buy a 10 year old diesel A4

Yeah well not all people that are considering diesel V petrol, can afford to buy new :rolleyes:

Did I suggest to buy new?

ION08

Veloce wrote: »

So someone who does 5000km per year should fork out for a 2009-2011 diesel car? I hope your not a car salesman or a financial advisor for that matter

I would say so yes. If somebody has 10,000 to spend and is in the market for an 2009-2011 car, I would say a 10k worth of diesel car is still a better bet than a 10k worth petrol car when it comes down to Tax, MPG, Cost of fuel per Litre and Residual value when it comes to selling it on again.

ION08

Veloce wrote: »

I think you would be plain mad to buy a 10 year old diesel A4

Yeah well, guess what I had a budget of 4,000 last year and I was able to Pick up a Mint 02 A4 TDI with 110K Miles... The car drives like it has 60k miles on it and a full tank does 670 miles!! I have done 10k miles in it since I bought it trouble free... I had it up for sale recently and lets just say I was offered very decent money for it but in the end I decided to keep it.

You'd have to be deluded to think that a "Petrol Equivalent" would have been a better buy.

Veloce

ION08 wrote: »

Veloce wrote: »

So someone who does 5000km per year should fork out for a 2009-2011 diesel car? I hope your not a car salesman or a financial advisor for that matter

I would say so yes. If somebody has 10,000 to spend and is in the market for an 2009-2011 car, I would say a 10k worth of diesel car is still a better bet than a 10k worth petrol car when it comes down to Tax, MPG, Cost of fuel per Litre and Residual value when it comes to selling it on again.

If you have 10k to spend on a diesel car I don't imagine the petrol equivalent to that diesel car is also valued at 10k. It is normally less.

Veloce

ION08 wrote: »

Veloce wrote: »

I think you would be plain mad to buy a 10 year old diesel A4

Yeah well, guess what I had a budget of 4,000 last year and I was able to Pick up a Mint 02 A4 TDI with 110K Miles... The car drives like it has 60k miles on it and a full tank does 670 miles!! I have done 10k miles in it since I bought it trouble free... I had it up for sale recently and lets just say I was offered very decent money for it but in the end I decided to keep it.

You'd have to be deluded to think that a "Petrol Equivalent" would have been a better buy.

You must be delighted to be holding onto it.

ION08

Veloce wrote: »

If you have 10k to spend on a diesel car I don't imagine the petrol equivalent to that diesel car is also valued at 10k. It is normally less.

Maybe so, but lets take this scenario as an example. Somebody is in the market for a 4 door saloon and is looking at 3 Series BMW's. An 09 320D (2L Diesel) would be a far better buy than any 318i (2L petrol)

ION08

Veloce wrote: »

You must be delighted to be holding onto it.

Maybe I am maybe I amn't, who are you to pass sarcastic comments on it?

How about commenting on the scenario I gave you as opposed to my personal decisions?

Would a "Petrol Equivalent" have been a better buy for me?? .. I think not.

Anan1

ION08 wrote: »

Would a "Petrol Equivalent" have been a better buy for me?? .. I think not.

That depends. A 1.8T would certainly have been a lot cheaper to buy, and nicer to drive too. How much more it would have cost to run depends on your annual mileage.

Veloce

ION08 wrote: »

Veloce wrote: »

You must be delighted to be holding onto it.

Maybe I am maybe I amn't, who are you to pass sarcastic comments on it?

How about commenting on the scenario I gave you as opposed to my personal decisions?

Would a "Petrol Equivalent" have been a better buy for me?? .. I think not.

I still would have picked the 2.0 petrol in the scenario outlined above. Thats just my preference. But I wouldn't buy an Audi in the first place- Its basically a glorified VW passat that people pay more money for. A 130bhp 1.9 diesel lump doesn't appeal to me.

Damie

Veloce wrote: »

I think you would be plain mad to buy a 10 year old diesel A4

Well looked after 10 year old A4 would be a great car, I don't see why it could be seen as 'mad' but each to their own I suppose

ION08

ION08 wrote: »

......

Same point as Torres3011: when buying a second hand car, a 2.2CDTI Accord is definitely a better buy than a 2.0i Accord .. and you don't have to be doing "mega mileage" to realise that

a better buy? Depends what he paid for it really, if either the exhaust manifold or timing chain need attention not going petrol might be regrettable. To be fair the 2.2 is neither proper fast or very quiet either compared to the 2.0 petrol.

Leonard Hofstadter

Damie wrote: »

Well looked after 10 year old A4 would be a great car, I don't see why it could be seen as 'mad' but each to their own I suppose

Another problem with TDI A4s is that they have become the weapon of choice for people who once upon a time drove Glanzas, so the odds of finding a clean and unabused A4 TDI from the early half of the last decade are virtually nought now.

The petrols haven't fallen foul to the same type of buyer, so they are much more likely to be in decent condition. When you get beyond about five years old, condition is far more important than age and mileage.

Tea 1000

captainspeed wrote: »

Another problem with TDI A4s is that they have become the weapon of choice for people who once upon a time drove Glanzas, so the odds of finding a clean and unabused A4 TDI from the early half of the last decade are virtually nought now.

The petrols haven't fallen foul to the same type of buyer, so they are much more likely to be in decent condition. When you get beyond about five years old, condition is far more important than age and mileage.

I'd agree. I saw over a year ago a mint, Irish 2006 A4 DTM edition for sale, 1 owner, 40k miles, full history. That's a quattro, 218bhp petrol A4, asking price was something close to €11k. At that time, most diesel 2WD 130bhp versions with 3 times the mileage were similar or more money. The 2WD 1.9 TDi A4 is not a great car. The DTM edition is actually not bad at all. So no brainer!
But the other example someone gave about the 2003 A4, 2 litre petrol vs diesel, diesel is the only choice there, because the 2 litre petrol was an abysmal piece of 115bhp shít.

torres3011

RoverJames wrote: »

a better buy? Depends what he paid for it really, if either the exhaust manifold or timing chain need attention not going petrol might be regrettable. To be fair the 2.2 is neither proper fast or very quiet either compared to the 2.0 petrol.

Have you driven both? I have.

The diesel is a much better drive imo.

As for the timing chain or exhaust manifold, dont petrol cars have any problems? If anything they get driven to sh*t by speed merchants where mine was an ex rep mobile from the UK

I paid 4,600 for it and to be honest i love it. Ive had a few petrol Alfa's and a couple of audi's as well and to me its the best all round car ive ever driven and it has every toy money can buy thrown in

Tea 1000

torres3011 wrote: »

Have you driven both? I have.

The diesel is a much better drive imo.

As for the timing chain or exhaust manifold, dont petrol cars have any problems? If anything they get driven to sh*t by speed merchants where mine was an ex rep mobile from the UK

I paid 4,600 for it and to be honest i love it. Ive had a few petrol Alfa's and a couple of audi's as well and to me its the best all round car ive ever driven and it has every toy money can buy thrown in

I have, and while I do agree that the diesel is excellent, I find the petrol more fun. Maybe I'm just a speed merchant though!!
There's a nice tune from the petrol, and it has a nice power delivery. The Honda diesel is much better than most others from that era, but it's still a diesel!

torres3011

torres3011 wrote: »

Have you driven both? I have.

The diesel is a much better drive imo.

As for the timing chain or exhaust manifold, dont petrol cars have any problems? If anything they get driven to sh*t by speed merchants where mine was an ex rep mobile from the UK

I paid 4,600 for it and to be honest i love it. Ive had a few petrol Alfa's and a couple of audi's as well and to me its the best all round car ive ever driven and it has every toy money can buy thrown in

The 2.0 petrol accord are generally issue free. Reps generally are speed merchants, quite often in a hurry and drive accordingly. It's not a proper fast car regardless of how happy you are with it.

September1

Veloce wrote: »

So someone who does 5000km per year should fork out for a 2009-2011 diesel car? I hope your not a car salesman or a financial advisor for that matter

Someone who was buying a new car in 2009-2011 with intention of not keeping it for much longer than warranty, would do better to buy diesel regardless of mileage. I hope you are literate enough to present some arguments that would prove me wrong for that matter ;-)

Leonard Hofstadter

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I'd agree. I saw over a year ago a mint, Irish 2006 A4 DTM edition for sale, 1 owner, 40k miles, full history. That's a quattro, 218bhp petrol A4, asking price was something close to €11k. At that time, most diesel 2WD 130bhp versions with 3 times the mileage were similar or more money. The 2WD 1.9 TDi A4 is not a great car. The DTM edition is actually not bad at all. So no brainer!
But the other example someone gave about the 2003 A4, 2 litre petrol vs diesel, diesel is the only choice there, because the 2 litre petrol was an abysmal piece of 115bhp shít.

2.0 A4 was 130 bhp since that model came out in 2001 - I think you're getting mixed up with the Passat, which lost the 1.8 20V in favour of the 2.0 8V in 2001 (but then got the 2.0 20V in either 02 or 03)?

Apart from that, I agree with the rest of your post - there is unreal value to be had in this country at the moment for cars with "large" (2.0 and above) petrol engines - I only wish I had the money to buy one!

Veloce

September1 wrote: »

Someone who was buying a new car in 2009-2011 with intention of not keeping it for much longer than warranty, would do better to buy diesel regardless of mileage. I hope you are literate enough to present some arguments that would prove me wrong for that matter ;-)

Somebody purchases a new diesel car in 2010, with a 5 year warranty, and plans to sell at the warranty expiration date in 2015. You are able to tell that person right now that they were better off buying a diesel?

(inserts condescending smiley face)

torres3011

RoverJames wrote: »

The 2.0 petrol accord are generally issue free. Reps generally are speed merchants, quite often in a hurry and drive accordingly. It's not a proper fast car regardless of how happy you are with it.

OK fair enough, its not very rapid in comparison to many a car but its quicker than most saloon cars and it does have plenty of torque and is also a great machine for daily use.

Are you a fan of Rovers?

torres3011

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I have, and while I do agree that the diesel is excellent, I find the petrol more fun. Maybe I'm just a speed merchant though!!
There's a nice tune from the petrol, and it has a nice power delivery. The Honda diesel is much better than most others from that era, but it's still a diesel!

Yes it is a diesel...

Fact remains that they are more expensive than the petrol models for a reason.

torres3011

torres3011 wrote: »

OK fair enough, its not very rapid in comparison to many a car but its quicker than most saloon cars and it does have plenty of torque and is also a great machine for daily use.

Are you a fan of Rovers?

.... what does the rover comment have to do with anything?

torres3011

RoverJames wrote: »

.... what does the rover comment have to do with anything?

It would add weight or not as the case may be to your answer. If you said yes, i love rovers then i wouldn't take any notice of your opinion on cars as they are possibly the worst cars ever built.:D IMO that is.

If on the other hand you meant your user name in a kind of rover all over the place kind of way then your point stands.

partyguinness

Going back to petrol myself. I bought a diesel last year as I had a 112 mile round trip to work every day on the motorway (live in UK) and it was great fuel wise.

But now I have a 20 mile a day round trip through a city and the heavy front wheel drive 2.0 diesel engine is killing me.

Also I am going back to a rear wheel drive after 5 years driving BMW in Ireland I just cant get used to the front wheel drive and hate it. So petrol 3 series is on the cards (2002-2003 mind you) Plus petrol in UK is cheaper than diesel (around 5p per litre)