The Border/NI. Why is it there for some things, yet not for others?

NIMAN

Title maybe doesn't quite explain what I'm getting at, but hard to put it into one single line.

Basically, things in NI, be it events, places, news stories, sport, sometimes seem to be important to RoI people and Government, and yet other things aren't.

Examples of what I'm on about.

- RTE programme about Ireland's cities. All RoI cities. I know that RTE might think "why include Belfast or Derry, they are in NI". But they are in Ireland, are they not?

- News stories in the North. Many go unreported, even serious enough ones.

- The Michaela McArevey case. The Irish Government are making official compaints and prepared to send their own police to investigate the murder of an NI resident. Surely that would be the responsibility of the Northern authorities? Are the PSNI now sitting thinking "surely we should be sending over officers".

Tbh, it was the last example that really got this thought into my head. and not trying to be disrespectful in any way to the people involved.

dm09

NIMAN wrote: »

Title maybe doesn't quite explain what I'm getting at, but hard to put it into one single line.

Basically, things in NI, be it events, places, news stories, sport, sometimes seem to be important to RoI people and Government, and yet other things aren't.

Examples of what I'm on about.

- RTE programme about Ireland's cities. All RoI cities. I know that RTE might think "why include Belfast or Derry, they are in NI". But they are in Ireland, are they not?

- News stories in the North. Many go unreported, even serious enough ones.

- The Michaela McArevey case. The Irish Government are making official compaints and prepared to send their own police to investigate the murder of an NI resident. Surely that would be the responsibility of the Northern authorities? Are the PSNI now sitting thinking "surely we should be sending over officers".

Tbh, it was the last example that really got this thought into my head. and not trying to be disrespectful in any way to the people involved.

Maybe because Michaela McAreavey held an Irish Passport?

NIMAN

Well thats this thread done! Suppose that explains it all.

Many NI people, even those who might seek a united Ireland, hold British passports.

Do you think the same interest would be shown for them, or would they not be seen as an Irish citizen? (serious question btw)

NIMAN

How do you delete a thread?

Fenian Army

Because they are Irish too?

Kolido

dm09 wrote: »

Maybe because Michaela McAreavey held an Irish Passport?

Most people in the North have or can avail of an Irish passport.

Hardonraging

NIMAN wrote: »

How do you delete a thread?

Set fire to your pc !!! it's the only way brah

Agricola

This happens, because like the North itself, its a grey area. Notice how the weather on RTE includes the whole island and regularly talks about areas of NI. The weather is a scientific / geographical issue and so we don't involve nasty politics. The people on the BBC have a different view which relates to not showing weather in the ROI as that would be over stepping the mark and a bit imperialist!
If anything this whole conundrum serves to underline what a ridonkulous notion partition is, and how we patently DONT live in two separate states at all. NI is a sort of Bermuda Triangle in which no one really knows where the boundaries start or end.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Our last president was from the north. Never an issue until McGuinness ran and suddenly he's a foreigner.

Mint Sauce

NIMAN wrote: »

Title maybe doesn't quite explain what I'm getting at, but hard to put it into one single line.

Basically, things in NI, be it events, places, news stories, sport, sometimes seem to be important to RoI people and Government, and yet other things aren't.

Examples of what I'm on about.

- RTE programme about Ireland's cities. All RoI cities. I know that RTE might think "why include Belfast or Derry, they are in NI". But they are in Ireland, are they not?

Was a programe on just over a year ago, repeated in the last few months, about famous streets around the country, businesses that had been on them, the residents, etc. One such street was the Strand Rd in Derry

- News stories in the North. Many go unreported, even serious enough ones.

How serious does a story have to be for it to be broadcast. You could say the same about RTE failing to report stories from the republic.

- The Michaela McArevey case. The Irish Government are making official compaints and prepared to send their own police to investigate the murder of an NI resident. Surely that would be the responsibility of the Northern authorities? Are the PSNI now sitting thinking "surely we should be sending over officers".

She has a ROI passport, also if you have been following the News like you say you have the Mauritius PM has only just invited PSNI and the Gardai to help in new investigations.

Agricola

Agricola wrote: »

This happens, because like the North itself, its a grey area. Notice how the weather on RTE includes the whole island and regularly talks about areas of NI. The weather is a scientific / geographical issue and so we don't involve nasty politics. The people on the BBC have a different view which relates to not showing weather in the ROI as that would be over stepping the mark and a bit imperialist!
If anything this whole conundrum serves to underline what a ridonkulous notion partition is, and how we patently DONT live in two separate states at all. NI is a sort of Bermuda Triangle in which no one really knows where the boundaries start or end.

That's exactly it. My foreign students always say things like, "You're from Northern Ireland? So you're British, not Irish" and it's so hard to explain that it's not that simple at all. There are loads of contradictions and things that don't make sense.

Pottler

We need that border so lads can smuggle stuff over it. It's no fun smuggling stuff if there's no actual border involved. Or profit, either.

retalivity

Its always funny watchin bbc ni newsline or utv after the main news. All local (usually serious) news, and no reference to the south, even when they have to fill in with utter fluff

'A man has been shot...'
'A woman attacked...'
'A petrol bomb....'
'A new icecream van has taken to the roads of lisburn today!'

SocSocPol

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Our last president was from the north. Never an issue until McGuinness ran and suddenly he's a foreigner.

Our last president wasn't a terrorist and didn't refer to our country as "Down Here", perhaps that was the problem with Marty.

dlofnep

Ireland is still for all intents and purposes considered a single nation, albeit with two different political jurisdictions.. That's why it's more often referred to as 'The North', even almost a century after partition rather than 'Northern Ireland'. There's alot of overlap across the Island, and many issues of mutual interest - sport, politics, etc...

rugrats

dlofnep wrote: »

Ireland is still for all intents and purposes considered a single nation, albeit with two different political jurisdictions.. That's why it's more often referred to as 'The North', even almost a century after partition rather than 'Northern Ireland'. There's alot of overlap across the Island, and many issues of mutual interest - sport, politics, etc...

I'm sure a lot of Nationalists would see it that way, but the Unionists certainly don't for the most part... That's why it's so complicated.

It's considered a single nation by plenty of foreigners because they don't know all the history and because the tourism boards of both states cooperate to market the Island of Ireland globally, but I certainly don't see Northern Ireland and Ireland as one single unit. We rarely talk about Northern Ireland unless it's about some bomb or some 12th of July March, and we can only cooperate politically on trivial issues; tourism and aspects of transport.

I think it's undeniable that the two states are far more separate that some would like to think.

I'd like it if we were closer, but for many Irish people, especially for those who don't live around the border, we have no connection to Northern Ireland and are probably more friendly with the English than with them due to the tense relations in the past decades.

getzls

Noel Shaggy Vessel wrote: »

That's exactly it. My foreign students always say things like, "You're from Northern Ireland? So you're British, not Irish" and it's so hard to explain that it's not that simple at all. There are loads of contradictions and things that don't make sense.

Your foreign students seem to be very smart.:)

garronamo

What I can't for the life of me understand is why there is an increasing use in the term "Ireland and Northen Ireland" that some irish people seem to take a strange delight in using. Nearly always by people from the south and west of the island who have not ventured even north of the shannon on this tiny little lsland they live on.

As someone who grew up 5 miles south of the "border" as they way things stand its Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Ireland - thats the island.

rugrats

garronamo wrote: »

What I can't for the life of me understand is why there is an increasing use in the term "Ireland and Northen Ireland" that some irish people seem to take a strange delight in using. Nearly always by people from the south and west of the island who have not ventured even north of the shannon on this tiny little lsland they live on.

As someone who grew up 5 miles south of the "border" as they way things stand its Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Ireland - thats the island.

Just so you know, Ireland/Éire is the official name of this state under the 1937 constitution. It's official description is the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland is the official name of the Northern Irish state. The description has stuck as the de facto name because it's easier to differentiate between the two states. Ireland is also the name of the island which is what makes things confusing

im invisible

in before 'theres no such country as the Republic of Ireland', 'thats the name of our soccer team...' etc.

carry on

Capt'n Midnight

Stroke City

Or the farmer during the BSE / Foot and Mouth / latest UK food crisis "I'm British but my cows are Irish"

See how many times during the Olympics you spot people changing nationality depending on how they are doing. For the UK this also works for Scotland / Wales / people who have recently change nationality.

swimming in a sea

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Our last president was from the north. Never an issue until McGuinness ran and suddenly he's a foreigner.

I always thought she was a bloody foreigner. A religious nutter as well.

Capt'n Midnight

swimming in a sea wrote: »

I always thought she was a bloody foreigner. A religious nutter as well.

Dana didn't win that time.

robp

SocSocPol wrote: »

Our last president wasn't a terrorist and didn't refer to our country as "Down Here", perhaps that was the problem with Marty.

I regret drifting off topic but 2 of Ireland's nine presidents were IRA gunman so that doesn't really cut it. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Sein Fein & friends but to call them foreigners is grossly insulting and out of order. Its akin to saying Irish people magically came into being in 1922.

Chuck Stone

robp wrote: »

I regret drifting off topic but 2 of Ireland's nine presidents were IRA gunman so that doesn't really cut it. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Sein Fein & friends but to call them foreigners is grossly insulting and out of order. Its akin to saying Irish people magically came into being in 1922.

And funnily enough the person you've quoted cites The Duke of Wellington as his favourite Irish person - himself a terrorist mercenary for the East India company (a noble cause indeed).

fasttalkerchat

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Stroke City

Or the farmer during the BSE / Foot and Mouth / latest UK food crisis "I'm British but my cows are Irish"

See how many times during the Olympics you spot people changing nationality depending on how they are doing. For the UK this also works for Scotland / Wales / people who have recently change nationality.

Also in the Olympics people from the North have to choose to play for a ROI team or a GB team. Why couldn't they have an All Ireland team or even an Ireland team and a UK team overlapping.

wendell borton

retalivity wrote: »

Its always funny watchin bbc ni newsline or utv after the main news. All local (usually serious) news, and no reference to the south, even when they have to fill in with utter fluff

'A man has been shot...'
'A woman attacked...'
'A petrol bomb....'
'A new icecream van has taken to the roads of lisburn today!'

The weather reports likewise, it like the south dosent exist.

fasttalkerchat

wendell borton wrote: »

The weather reports likewise, it like the south dosent exist.

In england you get BBC london/liverpool/manchester that just cover that specific area. Here it covers only the 6 counties (and Donegal) because it is for that specific region.

Gott

wendell borton wrote: »

The weather reports likewise, it like the south dosent exist.

Sometimes you might see Clones or Cavan on UTV's weather reports but it's a very rare thing, like weather systems end at the border.

Without being facetious, if it's 'Ulster' Television then surely it should show the weather for all of Ulster?

fasttalkerchat

Gott wrote: »

Sometimes you might see Clones or Cavan on UTV's weather reports but it's a very rare thing, like weather systems end at the border.

Without being facetious, if it's 'Ulster' Television then surely it should show the weather for all of Ulster?

The term "Northern Irish weather" really infuriates me. As if clouds are somehow aware of political squabbles over nationality.

awec

Agricola wrote: »

This happens, because like the North itself, its a grey area. Notice how the weather on RTE includes the whole island and regularly talks about areas of NI. The weather is a scientific / geographical issue and so we don't involve nasty politics. The people on the BBC have a different view which relates to not showing weather in the ROI as that would be over stepping the mark and a bit imperialist!
If anything this whole conundrum serves to underline what a ridonkulous notion partition is, and how we patently DONT live in two separate states at all. NI is a sort of Bermuda Triangle in which no one really knows where the boundaries start or end.

Er, it's pretty easy. :pac:

If you are in any of Armagh, Down, Antrim, Derry, Fermanagh or Tyrone you are in NI. What's confusing about that? This is like me saying "ah y'know, that County Cork is a bit of a grey area. Where are the boundaries? Why do we have a county cork at all?" :pac:

It clearly is two seperate states. Clear as day in fact. Different goverments, taxes, currencies, flags, etc etc, in what way can that possibly be seen as "not seperate" ? Is it because you can drive over the border and don't have to show your passport or something?

fasttalkerchat

awec wrote: »

Er, it's pretty easy. :pac:

If you are in any of Armagh, Down, Antrim, Derry, Fermanagh or Tyrone you are in NI. What's confusing about that? This is like me saying "ah y'know, that County Cork is a bit of a grey area. Where are the boundaries? Why do we have a county cork at all?" :pac:

Not quite. Part of county Louth is within the PSNI patrol area on the A1 and has 60 mph speed limits. If you drive from Augher to Sligo you cross the border 6+ times.

awec

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Not quite. Part of county Louth is within the PSNI patrol area on the A1 and has 60 mph speed limits. If you drive from Augher to Sligo you cross the border 6+ times.

Louth is not in NI.

If you are in any of the 6 counties I listed you are in NI. If you are not in those 6 counties you are not in NI.

What is confusing about that?

And again, driving from Augher to Sligo you cross the border 6 times. So what? What does that prove?

fasttalkerchat

awec wrote: »

Louth is not in NI.

If you are in any of the 6 counties I listed you are in NI. If you are not in those 6 counties you are not in NI.

What is confusing about that?

And again, driving from Augher to Sligo you cross the border 6 times. So what? What does that prove?

That the border only exists when its drawn on a map.

awec

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

That the border only exists when its drawn on a map.

Like thousands and thousands of borders all over the world then?

So really what you're saying here is that you don't think it exists because you aren't stopped at a passport control area when driving over it?

fasttalkerchat

awec wrote: »

Like thousands and thousands of borders all over the world then?

So really what you're saying here is that you don't think it exists because you aren't stopped at a passport control area when driving over it?

The thread: "The Border/NI. Why is it there for some things, yet not for others?"

I remarked that you can cross the border several times and not notice and that the border cant be defined by counties 100% accurately.
I don't see what confuses you.

awec

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The thread: "The Border/NI. Why is it there for some things, yet not for others?"

I remarked that you can cross the border several times and not notice and that the border cant be defined by counties 100% accurately.
I don't see what confuses you.

Your confusion confuses me.

The border is defined by counties 100% accurately. If you are in those 6 counties you are in the state of NI. If you're not in them, you're not. It is that simple. Because the PSNI can cross the border a bit in Louth is totally and absolutely irrelevant.

fasttalkerchat

awec wrote: »

Your confusion confuses me.

The border is defined by counties 100% accurately. If you are in those 6 counties you are in the state of NI. If you're not in them, you're not. It is that simple. Because the PSNI can cross the border a bit in Louth is totally and absolutely irrelevant.

For that purpose the border has slightly different boundaries.
Mobile phone networks don't follow the border on the map either.
You don't need ID to cross the border although technically you should have a UK visa to enter the 6 counties (unenforceable).
There are a few examples where the border is a grey area or where it has no implication as has been mentioned in this thread.

awec

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

For that purpose the border has slightly different boundaries.
Mobile phone networks don't follow the border on the map either.
You don't need ID to cross the border although technically you should have a UK visa to enter the 6 counties (unenforceable).
There are a few examples where the border is a grey area or where it has no implication as has been mentioned in this thread.

Why would you need a UK visa to enter the UK from Ireland? It's the EU.

fasttalkerchat

awec wrote: »

Why would you need a UK visa to enter the UK from Ireland? It's the EU.

There was a story a while back about Asian tourists being unaware that the Irish visa did not cover trips to Belfast and the North Coast. They plan to make one visa cover the island but unionists will stall things.

slimjimmc

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

For that purpose the border has slightly different boundaries.
Mobile phone networks don't follow the border on the map either.
You don't need ID to cross the border although technically you should have a UK visa to enter the 6 counties (unenforceable).
There are a few examples where the border is a grey area or where it has no implication as has been mentioned in this thread.

Hang on, are you seriously saying that parts of Co. Louth are subject to NI law and policing?

The border follows county boundaries precisely so no part of any county (NI or Irl) can ever crosses the border. Of course roads don't follow the borders and do criss-cross but each section remains 100% the jurisdiction of the relevant state.
There are circumstances where the PSNI and Gardaí can cross the border with permission and under certain conditions but that does not give either force any authority or patrolling rights when on the 'wrong' side.
The political boundary and the policing boundary are one and the same, there is no difference whatsoever.

fasttalkerchat

slimjimmc wrote: »

Hang on, are you seriously saying that parts of Co. Louth are subject to NI law and policing?

The border follows county boundaries precisely so no part of any county (NI or Irl) can ever crosses the border. Of course roads don't follow the borders and do criss-cross but each section remains 100% the jurisdiction of the relevant state.
There are circumstances where the PSNI and Gardaí can cross the border with permission and under certain conditions but that does not give either force any authority or patrolling rights when on the 'wrong' side.
The political boundary and the policing boundary are one and the same, there is no difference whatsoever.

The speed limit is 60 mph about 100 metres into county louth. A country road off to the right has speed given in km/h.

OMARS_COMING_

Is Donegal in NI?

Mr_Spaceman

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

There was a story a while back about Asian tourists being unaware that the Irish visa did not cover trips to Belfast and the North Coast. They plan to make one visa cover the island but unionists will stall things.

So it's the UK Govt's fault Asian tourists don't know basic visa requirements?

Okay then.

fasttalkerchat

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

So it's the UK Govt's fault Asian tourists don't know basic visa requirements?

Okay then.

Who said that? If you are having difficulty you can enlarge the text on your browser or get someone to help you with the big words

Mr_Spaceman

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Who said that? If you are having difficulty you can enlarge the text on your browser or get someone to help you with the big words

That was your implication and you know it.

Incidentally it works both ways. I've been on cross-border buses when Asian folk have been removed at the border by the Guards doing spot checks.

People should know where they can and can't access.

fasttalkerchat

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

That was your implication and you know it.

I said that you don't need ID to cross the border but you do need a separate visa, not many people were aware of the visa issue and there are plans to end the separate visas.
I didn't say it was anyone's fault that Asian people weren't aware of the situation.

Mr_Spaceman

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I said that you don't need ID to cross the border but you do need a separate visa, not many people were aware of the visa issue and there are plans to end the separate visas.
I didn't say it was anyone's fault that Asian people weren't aware of the situation.

Fair enough.

Visa issues should be highlighted a bit better.

Feathers

awec wrote: »

It clearly is two seperate states. Clear as day in fact. Different goverments, taxes, currencies, flags, etc etc, in what way can that possibly be seen as "not seperate" ? Is it because you can drive over the border and don't have to show your passport or something?

In fairness, he said the boundaries aren't clear which they're not. Never mind tourists, as an Irish man the only reason you know you've crossed the border is when you reach the next road sign (lacking Irish) or speed limit sign (in mph). Not exactly a clear boundary.

awec

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

There was a story a while back about Asian tourists being unaware that the Irish visa did not cover trips to Belfast and the North Coast. They plan to make one visa cover the island but unionists will stall things.

How will unionists stall things? It's nothing to do with unionists. There is no visa to visit Northern Ireland, it's a UK visa and any changes to visa policy will be made in Westminster and unionists will not care a jot.

fasttalkerchat

Feathers wrote: »

In fairness, he said the boundaries aren't clear which they're not. Never mind tourists, as an Irish man the only reason you know you've crossed the border is when you reach the next road sign (lacking Irish) or speed limit sign (in mph). Not exactly a clear boundary.

I know of one adventure day type company who started as a quad driving experience place. They had trouble getting insurance because no one knew exactly which side of the border their field was on. The road was an NI road but every other field was county Louth. Its right between Armagh, Louth and Monaghan.