'Cut the dole' they say: What the IMF wants, the IMF gets

EchoO

Kosseegan wrote: »

There is no good cutting the dole if they don't drop the minimum wage as well.

Why?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1013/breaking8.html

Sonics2k

puffishoes wrote: »

abolish it.

the market should set what a job is worth not the government.

Because that method has worked so well in the past with other countries.

Companies end up drastically lowering the pay so they can maximise profits.

Helix

Kurz wrote: »

Where is this specified? Can you link to where the legislation specifies what the dole is meant to pay?

the dole should keep you from starving and not much else imo

up for anything

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The Social Welfare is not meant to pay peoples mortgages.

Ah so you'd like to see plump people evicted from their homes and living on the side of the road and then when the next family are evicted they can eat the first set and so on.

What do you propose to do with all the evicted families living in their cars (untaxed and uninsured of course because the social welfare is not meant to pay for those) and in tents on the side of the road?

puffishoes

Ms.M wrote: »

What should there be?
(Genuinely wondering, not having a go)

There would need to be different scope's for different people.

one simply pays a % of an avg of your salary for the last x amount of years.

This is paid for say 12 months. after the 12 months you start to reduce that by x %

after 24 months.

ESB/GAS/phone/travel is paid using your PPS card which would have a monthly budget for each. A small payment then made for day to day nesecities.

Weekly assements, any turning down of interviews, employment training placement would mean imediate termination of payment's etc

There's lots of ways and things to look at some will be harder to implement than others.

but right now we cannot afford the current levels of pay so they have to be reduced.

Tombi!

puffishoes wrote: »

Weekly assements, any turning down of interviews, employment training placement would mean imediate termination of payment's etc

What if I have a baby?

Sin City

Helix wrote: »

the dole should keep you from starving and not much else imo

So as long as you have a spud you can be homeless

Id bet youd be the first to complain if all the new homeless then moved their cardboard boxes near your home

Sea Filly

ejmaztec wrote: »

That's those 500000 job vacancies filled - yay!

\o/

puffishoes

Sonics2k wrote: »

Because that method has worked so well in the past with other countries.

Companies end up drastically lowering the pay so they can maximise profits.

jobs that command high pay always command high pay. the actual % of workers on the actual minimum wage is fairly low anyway, but regardless the market should set the cost not the goverment.

digger58

We need to separate unemployed from unemployable, too many spongers, I am lucky and have a job but pay a lot of tax, prsi, pension, USC etc to keep all the spongers comfortable. We have too many with the attitude "I'm entitled to" we all look at America as the land of the free etc, look at their welfare system. If our politicians had the guts to tackle the unemployable and stop spoon feeding them we may get on the road to recovery. We all know families that have NEVER WORKED, it is becoming hereditary. These are the people in the pubs , smoking, having lots of kids etc, society is doomed with this attitude. Fewer working in future to support more on the dole and pension = disaster.
Just because you don't have a job does not entitle you to all the trappings of life associated with hard earned cash, especially when you have NEVER CONTRIBUTED to Irish society. And to non nationals who complain..... I'm sure nobody is forcing you to stay in Ireland, the right to return home is there if you don't like our laws, food, language and social ways!

Seanchai

I am by no means a rightwinger, and I despise the politics of McDowell, Harney, McCreevy and their ilk. For me, Joe Higgins is easily the most necessary voice in Dáil Éireann, just as Peadar O'Donnell was the most necessary voice of mid-twentieth century Ireland.

However, the dole, and more particularly its benefits such as medical cards etc, should be cut. There are far too many people who, because of these benefits, have no incentive to work when they are offered the chance. My own salary has been reduced by an extraordinary 17% in the past 18 months. I cannot afford private health care and have had to pay €100 for each of my three visits to A&E in the past 12 months. I wasn't even entitled to the Back to Work Allowance last year because I wasn't working the required 20 hours per week. Re-read: if I were earning more, I would have been entitled to a social welfare payment. It would make you sick. Obviously, in this short-medium term, I'd be much better off financially not working.

I work in an area where the system is being absolutely milked, where a welfare culture is embedded, where the sense of entitlement from the state and its employees is incredible. It's that sense of entitlement which really rankles with me. The idea of working for what you receive is for "suckers"; the more you get for doing nothing, the more street cred you get.

This is wrong. This is not what the great socialist republican thinkers of the past century would have wanted. Peadar O'Donnell? Nope. James Connolly? Nope. It is not just the political elite - the Flynns, Aherns, Lowrys, Lawlors, Haugheys, etc - who have betrayed the vision of 1916, it is large swathes of what are now not the "working class" but the "social welfare" class who have undermined it also. It is long past time that people of goodwill opened their eyes to the culture of entitlement in poorer areas of Irish society, as well as among the well-off professions and higher civil servants.

From a truly radical socialist republican perspective, a genuinely revolutionary perspective, one of the best things that could happen is if the dole and its associated payments were radically reduced. That is the chief hope for a revolution. Predictably, because of this, it is likely the state will continue to buy off the acquiescence of the welfare classes.

I look forward to a social revolution in Ireland, home of one of the most docile and unrevolutionary people in the world. "The fighting Irish" - what a myth, given what has happened here since September 2008. We have huge merits as a people - warmth, humour, character, creativity, storytelling, song, music, etc - but standing up for ourselves against power is not one of our "national traits". Nílimid ag scríobh i mBéarla anseo, mar shampla.

PS: Just because people condemn abuses of the social welfare system does not mean they condone the sycophancy of the political welfare and corporate welfare sections of our society. No section is immune from criticism. Grow up, please. Thank you.

puffishoes

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

What if I have a baby?

You'll be a mammy or a daddy.

I don't see what it has to do with anything?

Chucky the tree

Sin City wrote: »

Oh here we go

Ok so we should all just be homeless is it

Get a grip

No, people should use their saving to pay for their mortgage when they are unemployed. The aim of the Social welfare is to help provide the very basics.

Kurz wrote: »

Where is this specified? Can you link to where the legislation specifies what the dole is meant to pay?

It's common sense. Unfortunately that seems to be lacking for a huge number of people though.

up for anything wrote: »

Ah so you'd like to see plump people evicted from their homes and living on the side of the road and then when the next family are evicted they can eat the first set and so on.

What do you propose to do with all the evicted families living in their cars (untaxed and uninsured of course because the social welfare is not meant to pay for those) and in tents on the side of the road?

No, I'd like to see people use their savings. If people want to pay for their mortgage with their dole then fair enough, just don't whinge about the dole not being enough and how you are struggling to survive.

theg81der

Seriously what kind of food would 2 adults be eating for 50e a week? really curious...

Tombi!

puffishoes wrote: »

You'll be a mammy or a daddy.

I don't see what it has to do with anything?

You normally bring a baby with you on your interview?

Jame Gumb

Sin City wrote: »

puffishoes wrote: »

Our shopping bill is aprox 50-60e a week for two people.

if you're on the dole you have in excess of 800e a month disposable income.

how the hell would one starve with more disposable income than most low paid workers?

If your on the dole you have limited or no disposible income

Isn't that the point? People on the dole should have NO disposable income. It's a payment designed to help people to live at a subsistence level. It is not there to fund boozing, smoking, meals out, designer clothes or foreign holidays.

I'd be in favour of providing those on social welfare with a debit card on to which the State lodges €X per week. It may only be spent in Irish owned businesses and may only be spent on absolutely essential items such as food and clothing. No alcohol, no cigarettes, no newspapers, no bets, no foreign holidays etc.

Logical Fallacy

puffishoes wrote: »

I'm not in receipt of sw payments so I don't see why it's relevant?

You don't think you can feed two people for an avg of 50e a week?

odd, how much do you think it takes?

Sorry Puffi, i'm not in the habit of answering questions from people who have endless excuses as to why they don't have to answer any themselves.

puffishoes

theg81der wrote: »

Seriously what kind of food would 2 adults be eating for 50e a week? really curious...

yea?

Haven't passed a butchers in awhile?

I see offers every day outside butchers, offering meat that would last almost a month for aprox 20e

that's 5e a week.

Aldi do super 6 fruit and veg I got a head of broccoli for 29 cent. potatoes 69c. carrots etc.

maybe you'll have to reduce your parma ham and fig fetish but you can eat pretty damn well for very little these days. have a stroll around a supermarket.

Jame Gumb

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

puffishoes wrote: »

Weekly assements, any turning down of interviews, employment training placement would mean imediate termination of payment's etc

What if I have a baby?

Eh, you shouldn't.

If you can't provide for a child, don't have one.

Sin City

Chucky the tree wrote: »

No, people should use their saving to pay for their mortgage when they are unemployed. The aim of the Social welfare is to help provide the very basics.

What savings? If your on the dole you more than likley dont have or have already exhausted your savings

Tombi!

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Isn't that the point? People on the dole should have NO disposable income. It's a payment designed to help people to live at a subsistence level. It is not there to fund boozing, smoking, meals out, designer clothes or foreign holidays.

I'd be in favour of providing those on social welfare with a debit card on to which the State lodges €X per week. It may only be spent in Irish owned businesses and may only be spent on absolutely essential items such as food and clothing. No alcohol, no cigarettes, no newspapers, no bets, no foreign holidays etc.

Actually there's something like a suggested means of living or something.
The dole *should* cover it.

And the card is stupid (sorry). Idea has been done to death.

Either it'll create another black market (like with drugs) or I'd just buy stuff for friends and they'd give me money. Well I wouldn't do it personally but you get the idea.

smemon

Bulldozing everything else out of the way, the reality is the Irish welfare system is pretty decent. Too decent many would argue.

People paying mortgages complaining that welfare is too low should sell up and rent if they're struggling that bad. Nobody 'needs' to own their own house (let's be honest, so long as you've a place you can call home - even if it's not owned by you, you're not in bad shape).

Re: disposable income, it's always gonna differ from one person or family to the next but imo you get used to whatever income you have and adjust spending habits to suit. So the longer you're on welfare, the more sense you get.

I think cutting welfare for long term unemployed makes sense but only if you force them in to starting their own businesses or further education. Welfare is provided again at that stage.

christmas2012

And the dole. You should not be able to afford a car, or to smoke when on the dole. But you are.

I know very few people that can afford a car on the dole,nevermind smoking the only smokes i could afford were cheap ones or illegal ones,let me remind you its not a picnic on the dole,theres rent and other expenses to be paid..

puffishoes

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Sorry Puffi, i'm not in the habit of answering questions from people who have endless excuses as to why they don't have to answer any themselves.

butcher's deals.

meat for a month for 20e

5e a week.

1k a porride in tesco - pennies. breakfast for two for a month.

aldi super 6 - fruit and veg for little or nothing.

what do you want me to do? scan in receipts?

Chucky the tree

theg81der wrote: »

Seriously what kind of food would 2 adults be eating for 50e a week? really curious...

Pretty good food actually.

Sin City wrote: »

What savings? If your on the dole you more than likley dont have or have already exhausted your savings

On what?

Sin City

Chucky the tree wrote: »

On what?

Err living?

How much savings do you think most people on the dole have?

theg81der

puffishoes wrote: »

butcher's deals.

meat for a month for 20e

5e a week.

1k a porride in tesco - pennies. breakfast for two for a month.

aldi super 6 - fruit and veg for little or nothing.

what do you want me to do? scan in receipts?

Yes please I`d love to see scanned receipts. Don`t know where your getting 20e a month meat - never seen such a thing ever. Know one butchers with a 20e a week deal. 20e a month - I don`t want to die of some weird disease....

Sin City

puffishoes wrote: »

butcher's deals.

meat for a month for 20e

5e a week.

1k a porride in tesco - pennies. breakfast for two for a month.

aldi super 6 - fruit and veg for little or nothing.

what do you want me to do? scan in receipts?

Your butcher didnt run over a dog on his way to open up shop and sold it to you did he?

Chucky the tree

Sin City wrote: »

Err living?

How much savings do you think most people on the dole have?

If they have spend their saving on living what exactly how they spend their dole on? I've no idea how much savings people have on the dole, but anyone with a mortgage should have a decent sum.

PrincessLola

Oh a job, of course! Why didn't I think of that?
Let me just go down to the job shop and pick up a nice job. There sure are lots to go round.

Sin City

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If they have spend their saving on living what exactly how they spend their dole on? I've no idea how much savings people have on the dole, but anyone with a mortgage should have a decent sum.

Why should people have a decent some if they had a mortgage?
If people had a decent some do you think anyone would be behind on their mortage payments ?

Your either trolling or your so out of touch with reality your probably a politician

puffishoes

theg81der wrote: »

Yes please I`d love to see scanned receipts. Don`t know where your getting 20e a month meat - never seen such a thing ever. Know one butchers with a 20e a week deal. 20e a month - I don`t want to die of some weird disease....

the deal is usually 20e a week based on a familiy.

but if you're clever with it and are not eating meat every single day it can last a month no problem.

stews/free/lasagne's/spag ball etc

don't worry I'm not expecting much from people who can't seem to manage to tie their own shoe laces, but for the rest they should manage just fine on 50e a week on average.

ilovesleep

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Your right, it really needs to be means tested. I know a couple of people myself around my own age (24) who are finished up with college and back living at home with the parents paying for everything. There's no way these people should be getting the full amount every week.

Every adult is different and has different circumstances so a one size fits all approach reform to adults receiving unemployment benifit/assistance living at home wont work. Lucky friends if they have their parents to pay for them but not every adult who's living at home has that help.

My brothers when living at home were given a free ride when they were working and also when they became unemployed. An odd time they helped at home financially but it certainly wasn't demanded of them. Their dole was pocket money.

It was different for me and my sister. We had to cough up rent, bills, food etc. No ifs and buts about it.
(recession has me back at home now earning not much more than the dole a week). My mom would strangle me if I wasn't able to pay my way and I'd find myself on the side of the street.

My sister was applying for a medical card and she put down all her outgoings including the rent paid to home and it wasn't taken into account so sw wouldn't take such an outgoing into consideration.

So SW is pocket money for some but not for others.

I was also talking to a taximan who was due to move back home with his mother bringing his wife and kids with him. So cutting welfare for an adult living at home would hurt him when he has a family to support.

It's also discrimmating people based on who they live with. Also penalising them for saving the government on rent allowance.

Edit if SW is going to be cut for an adult living at home, the pay for a PS worker adult also living at home should also be cut based on the assumption that because they are living at home mammy and daddy is for you.

Boombastic

puffishoes wrote: »

The budget i gave was a shopping bill for two people, in retort to posts about people starving. what on earth has it to do with my rent your rent or anyone elses rent?

can you explain to me from in excess of 800e a month why someone would be left to starve? considering you can feed 2 adults very well on less than 50e a week?

Sky
Netflick
UPC
Socialising
Car

All necessary before food;)

Chucky the tree

Sin City wrote: »

Why should people have a decent some if they had a mortgage?
If people had a decent some do you think anyone would be behind on their mortage payments ?

Your either trolling or your so out of touch with reality your probably a politician

Because if buying a mortgage people should have the cop on to have some decent savings in case they lose their job. Obviously expecting people to do that is a bit much it seems. As I said a complete lack of common sense. Again, what did people do with their dole money while they spend their savings on living?

Tombi!

Boombastic wrote: »

Sky
Netflick
UPC
Socialising
Car

All necessary before food;)

Sky and UPC. I know you're being sarcastic but come on, who the fúck needs both? :pac:

Sin City

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Because if buying a mortgage people should have the cop on to have some decent savings in case they lose their job. Obviously expecting people to do that is a bit much it seems. As I said a complete lack of common sense. Again, what did people do with their dole money while they spend their savings on living?

Thank you captain hindsight

What did they do with their savings? They probably tried to pay off as much debt as they could.

I think you are overestimating peoples saving amounts and again your a little bit outside of reality

Boombastic

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Sky and UPC. I know you're being sarcastic but come on, who the fúck needs both? :pac:

Sure what else would you be doing all day?:pac:

ArmaniJeanss

For all those in the 'there are just no jobs gang'.

Learning a foreign language would seem a decent way of passing the time anyway and is not that difficult (you learned your first langauage between the age 18 months and 5 years after all.)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paypal-forced-to-import-500-workers-and-warns-of-language-skills-crisis-3171118.html

THE online company that announced 1,000 new jobs in February yesterday said it is having trouble finding Irish workers with the necessary language skills.

Instead, PayPal has been forced to 'import' employees from abroad -- 500, or half of those required -- at a far higher cost.

Chucky the tree

Sin City wrote: »

Thank you captain hindsight

What did they do with their savings? They probably tried to pay off as much debt as they could.

I think you are overestimating peoples saving amounts and again your a little bit outside of reality

I honestly don't think expecting people who are buying a house to have have a year-two years of savings in being out of touch with reality. I actually think buying a house, having no savings afterwards, then not putting any savings aside and just expecting to have a job until you retire in the height of stupidity. Ah paying off debt, who'd have thought throwing everything on your credit card/getting extra loans for holidays and cars would be a bad idea? Obviously I'm outside of reality expecting people to pay for those things with cash/savings.

Tombi!

Boombastic wrote: »

Sure what else would you be doing all day?:pac:

You ever try keeping an eye on three TVs?

Playin' me Xbox and watchin' Talafornia repeats is hard enough with the amount of hash and dutch gold I have. I don't want to be bleedin' addin' another fúckin' television.

Sin City

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

For all those in the 'there are just no jobs gang'.

Learning a foreign language would seem a decent way of passing the time anyway and is not that difficult (you learned your first langauage between the age 18 months and 5 years after all.)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paypal-forced-to-import-500-workers-and-warns-of-language-skills-crisis-3171118.html

THE online company that announced 1,000 new jobs in February yesterday said it is having trouble finding Irish workers with the necessary language skills.

Instead, PayPal has been forced to 'import' employees from abroad -- 500, or half of those required -- at a far higher cost.

Id love to learn a second language , but unfortunatly Im not good at langauges. I may have picked up English as you say early but I struggled with Irish French and German

I dont think Im wired right for languages

bbam

Its interesting..
For those in PAYE employment calling for SW cuts while there are few/no jobs... Most pay an effective tax rate of about 15-20% of their gross income... or there abouts...
Say the IMF called for your effective tax rate to go up to 30% or 40% to support the ongoing issues with the countries finance... Would you be supporting their notion then if your tax was doubled ??
We seem to be a nation of short sighted people, "those lads on the dole are all scroungers that my tax pays for", how dare they have internet access, how dare they or their children expect to eat a meat dinner every day.. I know this is AH forum but surely people here see that there just aren't jobs out there and major SW cuts will just be creating poverty for the sake of poverty.. you can't drive 400,000+ people out to take up the 20,000/30,000 jobs that may be available at any time in Ireland (thats just a guess, its probably about 10,000 jobs)..
The government have failed to tackle the real issue in this country being that our domestic economy is in decline and unemployment is a social catastrophy. I'm not convinced by their current €2bn effort which would seem to create few long term jobs.. the sad truth is that we will need better court houses and garda stations, as our society collapses into poverty crime will rise and rise..

books4sale

Sin City wrote: »

Thank you captain hindsight

You seem to be mistaken, Chucky the Tree is his user name.

WHich begs the question, what other things are you mistaken on?

Sin City

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I honestly don't think expecting people who are buying a house to have have a year-two years of savings in being out of touch with reality. I actually think buying a house, having no savings afterwards, then not putting any savings aside and just expecting to have a job until you retire in the height of stupidity. Ah paying off debt, who'd have thought throwing everything on your credit card/getting extra loans for holidays and cars would be a bad idea? Obviously I'm outside of reality expecting people to pay for those things with cash/savings.

But again your thinking that everyone had a good job and were able to put a substantial amount aside

That isnt the way Im afraid

Sin City

books4sale wrote: »

You seem to be mistaken, Chucky the Tree is his user name.

WHich begs the question, what other things are you mistaken on?

Bada boom

If thats how desperate you are to argue
you can go sit in the corner

Anyone

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I honestly don't think expecting people who are buying a house to have have a year-two years of savings in being out of touch with reality. I actually think buying a house, having no savings afterwards, then not putting any savings aside and just expecting to have a job until you retire in the height of stupidity. Ah paying off debt, who'd have thought throwing everything on your credit card/getting extra loans for holidays and cars would be a bad idea? Obviously I'm outside of reality expecting people to pay for those things with cash/savings.

If thats the way you think, then yeah, I would say yes you are out of touch with reality and very much so.

books4sale

Sin City wrote: »

Bada boom

If thats how desperate you are to argue
you can go sit in the corner

I never argue, i'm a pacifist.

puffishoes

Anyone wrote: »

If thats the way you think, then yeah, I would say yes you are out of touch with reality and very much so.

Expecting people to be frugal and financially responsible is being out of touch with reality?

The teachers in this country have a lot to answer for.

tdv123

Why don't we all just get together & have a big bloody massive riot & over throw the goverment like they did in Syria & Romania.