Isn't it time we got our prisoners working?

meoklmrk91

Has anyone else been watching Gordon behind bars on C4, it follows Gordon Ramsey as he goes inside Brixton Prison and sets about training a group of prisoners to cook and set up a business, bad boys bakery, in order to have them earn their keep, teach them a skill etc. 2 of the lads he trained are now even working in restaurants on the outside which is obviously great.

The minister for justice in GB has stated that he wants to double the workforce in britains prisons by 2020, meaning 20k prisoners would be working full time. He also stated that the money they were paid could go as maintenance for their families on the outside and possibly a little nest egg which they could use for training, learning new skills when they get out provided that they stay out of trouble.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9355818/Factory-prisons-will-allow-inmates-to-support-families-on-the-outside.html

Now Ireland has a much smaller prisone service than the UK, we have 14 prisons they have 139, a 2010 report showed that they have 85,458, in January 2011 our prison population stood at 4,541. In the year 2009 it cost the taxpayer of Ireland €77,222 to incarcerate each prisoner. The annual budget for the prison service in the same year was nearly €380million.

So my point is let's get them working teach them to do something figure out how make money off it, have them earn their keep and put something back into the public coffers, give them a wage and use that to pay maintenance for their children so less money will have to come from social welfare if the mothers should happen to be on it and if not all the better, the fathers should be paying maintenance, if the uk are planning to have 20,000 of their prisoners working by 2020 then why can't we have half of ours doing the same.

This isn't an anti prisoner rant this is a case of getting people into the habit of working and giving them a chance to better themselves,1,219 prisoners participated in various accredited courses in 2011, obviously this is great, but why not put a pilot scheme in place where they can practice what they have been taught in their courses and make money for themselves, this work experience could also really help them to get work or further their education when they get out.

I know this will cost money but like I said even a pilot scheme at one if the smaller prisons could get the ball rolling, if run properly they could be not only successful but turn a meaningful profit.

mikom

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

I know this will cost money but like I said even a pilot scheme at one if the smaller prisons could get the ball rolling,

Don't be giving Micheal O'Leary ideas.

im not reading all that but yes bout time they put down the playstation and starting working

dlofnep

Don't oppose the idea, but someone people are just too dangerous to be left outside to work. For petty crime, sure.

Brokentime

I like the idea. Mountjoy used to (maybe still do) have a woodwork room and they made benches etc. for school playgrounds there. And then they had a riot in 2005/6 and thrashed the place.

The prisoners that Rambo trained; what were they in for?

retalivity

id worry more about providing jobs to the thousands outside prison walls than to those inside them to be honest...

meoklmrk91

dlofnep wrote: »

Don't oppose the idea, but someone people are just too dangerous to be left outside to work. For petty crime, sure.

Why would they have to be left out to work?

MrStuffins

It'll only be a matter of time before we have threads on here complaining that foreign prisoners are taking Irish prisoners jobs!

Lyaiera

If it was set up as part of a rehabilitation programme rather than a "make dem filthy prisoners earn their bread and water" programme I'd be delighted with it.

I've also previously thought that community service could be directed at the offender. So instead of forcing the offender to do something the court decides, let the offender come up with something they feel could be of benefit to their community and allow them to do that. An offender that's involved in their community is far less likely to re-offend. I know some judges already take this attitude and will allow someone suggest what they want to do for their community service, but I think it should be a far more used practice.

Doc

That's right there aren't enough jobs to go around so why not let prisoners do what is effectively a job someone else could be doing for virtually nothing. That's sure to get the economy going again and be hugely beneficial to the population at large.

meoklmrk91

Lyaiera wrote: »

If it was set up as part of a rehabilitation programme rather than a "make dem filthy prisoners earn their bread and water" programme I'd be delighted with it.

I've also previously thought that community service could be directed at the offender. So instead of forcing the offender to do something the court decides, let the offender come up with something they feel could be of benefit to their community and allow them to do that. An offender that's involved in their community is far less likely to re-offend. I know some judges already take this attitude and will allow someone suggest what they want to do for their community service, but I think it should be a far more used practice.

I think it is the best of both worlds really, the prisoners get to do something that they enjoy, not talking about people making license plates here, learn, earn a bit of a wage, get work experience which will help them move on in the outside world and do better for themselves.

The profit could be used to set up other schemes in other prisons, buy new equipment, etc. as well as actually be used to run the prison service as a whole, taking away some of the cost from the public, I wouldn't be in favour of it if it wasn't profitable though, the last thing this country needs is another bill.

meoklmrk91

Doc wrote: »

That's right there aren't enough jobs to go around so why not let prisoners do what is effectively a job someone else could be doing for virtually nothing. That's sure to get the economy going again and be hugely beneficial to the population at large.

Sorry don't think you are getting the point, it cost us a lot of money to keep these people locked up, the point of this is to get them working to effectively earn their keep, to pay maintenance towards the care their children, and to turn a profit, meaning that the companies would be self sufficient and not costing the state anything, in fact they would be putting money back into the prison service saving the country money on that, hopefully some money paid to the single mums in lone parents and later on if/ when they get out and end up working instead of drawing the dole.

Doc

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Sorry don't think you are getting the point, it cost us a lot of money to keep these people locked up, the point of this is to get them working to effectively earn their keep, to pay maintenance towards the care their children, and to turn a profit, meaning that the companies would be self sufficient and not costing the state anything, in fact they would be putting money back into the prison service saving the country money on that, hopefully some money paid to the single mums in lone parents and later on if/ when they get out and end up working instead of drawing the dole.

No I don’t think you’re getting the point. Say I own a company making something like licence plates. Now say the government starts forcing prisoners to make licence plates. What happens to my company that is employing people?

meoklmrk91

Doc wrote: »

No I don’t think you’re getting the point. Say I own a company making something like licence plates. Now say the government starts forcing prisoners to make licence plates. What happens to my company that is employing people?

What happens if somebody starts a business down the road from you making license plates, it's compitition simple as. So you would rather we pay €77,222 per prisoner per year than have them earn their keep, save us money that could be put to stimulus and creating jobs for the rest of the scheme.

Also nobodies talking about forcing anyone to do anything, lots of people are locked up for good stretches more than a year, they finish their course and then what, they sit around doing nothing until they get out, or say they have done a carpentery course, they can join the work shop and make tables, shelves all manners of things, earn vital work experience that can help them get a job when they do get out and save money for money for the country. I'm sure the local green grocer takes a hit when dunnes/tesco/lidl/aldi comes into town but it would be anticompetitive to stop them.

Doc

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

What happens if somebody starts a business down the road from you making license plates, it's compitition simple as. So you would rather we pay €77,222 per prisoner per year than have them earn their keep, save us money that could be put to stimulus and creating jobs for the rest of the scheme.

Also nobodies talking about forcing anyone to do anything, lots of people are locked up for good stretches more than a year, they finish their course and then what, they sit around doing nothing until they get out, or say they have done a carpentery course, they can join the work shop and make tables, shelves all manners of things, earn vital work experience that can help them get a job when they do get out and save money for money for the country. I'm sure the local green grocer takes a hit when dunnes/tesco/lidl/aldi comes into town but it would be anticompetitive to stop them.

I would consider having them earn their keep but not by having them take on work in the privet sector.

The difference here is that if my business goes under because of a competing business, the business that comes out on top is still employing people a prison is not.

And to say that they wouldn't be forced to do it would make the whole thing pointless as why would they want to work unless there was something in it for them? And before you say they will be learning new skill lets be honest they wouldn't be learning anything really beneficial as most of the types of jobs you could realistically expect prisoners to do would be low skilled.

They have prisoners working in the US and the private contracting of prisoners for work fosters incentives to lock people up. Prisons depend on this income. Corporate stockholders who make money off prisoners' work lobby for longer sentences, in order to expand their workforce. The system feeds itself.
In Texas, a factory fired its 150 workers and contracted the services of prisoner-workers from the private Lockhart Texas prison, where circuit boards are assembled for companies like IBM and Compaq.

meoklmrk91

Doc wrote: »

I would consider having them earn their keep but not by having them take on work in the privet sector.

The difference here is that if my business goes under because of a competing business, the business that comes out on top is still employing people a prison is not.

And to say that they wouldn't be forced to do it would make the whole thing pointless as why would they want to work unless there was something in it for them? And before you say they will be learning new skill lets be honest they wouldn't be learning anything really beneficial as most of the types of jobs you could realistically expect prisoners to do would be low skilled.

They have prisoners working in the US and the private contracting of prisoners for work fosters incentives to lock people up. Prisons depend on this income. Corporate stockholders who make money off prisoners' work lobby for longer sentences, in order to expand their workforce. The system feeds itself.
In Texas, a factory fired its 150 workers and contracted the services of prisoner-workers from the private Lockhart Texas prison, where circuit boards are assembled for companies like IBM and Compaq.

Those are certainly some very interesting points, particularly the last one. However I don't think we need to be looking to America for any tips in all fairness they have made a complete balls of it.

You say that workers would have to be forced to do it otherwise none of them would do it as there would be nothing in it for them. The same could be said for the courses that around 25% of the prison population in 2011 availed of yet they seem to be very popular, and yes I do think they could be learning and gaining skills IF the work they were doing was related to their courses. At the moment these courses are paid for by the tax payer and we can only hope that they will help the prisoners to have more productive lives when they leave prison and either further their education or get a job, this way they would have work experience before they ever left the prison.

Rynox45

The prison system is sort of stupid. Punishing people by paying for them to live is a backwards idea.

I think they do this in America, though they have a big demand for helmets and whatnot to supply their armed forces which keeps prisoners occupied. It's hard to say what should be done because ideally I think prisoners should be made work enough to at least balance out the cost of their sentence, but for that the cost would have to be lowered greatly somehow.

Chuck Stone

It's a bad idea. It would just lead to, what would essentially amount to, a modern day slave trade.

meoklmrk91

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It's a bad idea. It would just lead to, what would essentially amount to, a modern day slave trade.

Why does it have to be slave labour, there are prisoners who already have jobs in prisons and thats not slave labour, a friend of a friend did a short enough stretch, he was a painter decorator and was given a job painting the prison, he got a small wage and he was delighted. I don't see how if it is voluntary and they are given a reasonable enough wage as a prisoner it can be slave labour.

mikemac1

Fingal have no money to clean their beaches or so they claim anyway

It's just past 6am, would be a lovely morning to head out for a few hours and do some work

Only joggers are going to see them anyway, they can be back in their cells by 9am

Chuck Stone

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Why does it have to be slave labour, there are prisoners who already have jobs in prisons and thats not slave labour, a friend of a friend did a short enough stretch, he was a painter decorator and was given a job painting the prison, he got a small wage and he was delighted. I don't see how if it is voluntary and they are given a reasonable enough wage as a prisoner it can be slave labour.

I guess prison related jobs like working in the kitchen, library, laundry, painting etc would be okay as long as it was 'voluntary'.

Creating a growing 'prison industry' is the risk and if the US experience is anything to go by it is a very real risk.

Prisoners earning 23 cents an hour in U.S. federal prisons are manufacturing high-tech electronic components for Patriot Advanced Capability 3 missiles, launchers for TOW (Tube-launched, Optically tracked, Wire-guided) anti-tank missiles, and other guided missile systems.

Major corporations profiting from the slave labor of prisoners include Motorola, Compaq, Honeywell, Microsoft, Boeing, Revlon, Chevron, TWA, Victoria’s Secret and Eddie Bauer.

IBM, Texas Instruments and Dell get circuit boards made by Texas prisoners. Tennessee inmates sew jeans for Kmart and JCPenney. Tens of thousands of youth flipping hamburgers for minimum wages at McDonald’s wear uniforms sewn by prison workers, who are forced to work for much less.

Source

SocSocPol

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Has anyone else been watching Gordon behind bars on C4, it follows Gordon Ramsey as he goes inside Brixton Prison and sets about training a group of prisoners to cook and set up a business, bad boys bakery, in order to have them earn their keep, teach them a skill etc. 2 of the lads he trained are now even working in restaurants on the outside which is obviously great.

The minister for justice in GB has stated that he wants to double the workforce in britains prisons by 2020, meaning 20k prisoners would be working full time. He also stated that the money they were paid could go as maintenance for their families on the outside and possibly a little nest egg which they could use for training, learning new skills when they get out provided that they stay out of trouble.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9355818/Factory-prisons-will-allow-inmates-to-support-families-on-the-outside.html

Now Ireland has a much smaller prisone service than the UK, we have 14 prisons they have 139, a 2010 report showed that they have 85,458, in January 2011 our prison population stood at 4,541. In the year 2009 it cost the taxpayer of Ireland €77,222 to incarcerate each prisoner. The annual budget for the prison service in the same year was nearly €380million.

So my point is let's get them working teach them to do something figure out how make money off it, have them earn their keep and put something back into the public coffers, give them a wage and use that to pay maintenance for their children so less money will have to come from social welfare if the mothers should happen to be on it and if not all the better, the fathers should be paying maintenance, if the uk are planning to have 20,000 of their prisoners working by 2020 then why can't we have half of ours doing the same.

This isn't an anti prisoner rant this is a case of getting people into the habit of working and giving them a chance to better themselves,1,219 prisoners participated in various accredited courses in 2011, obviously this is great, but why not put a pilot scheme in place where they can practice what they have been taught in their courses and make money for themselves, this work experience could also really help them to get work or further their education when they get out.

I know this will cost money but like I said even a pilot scheme at one if the smaller prisons could get the ball rolling, if run properly they could be not only successful but turn a meaningful profit.

All prisoners in Irish Jails are already to work, be that in the kitchens, laundry,cleaning landings etc or workshops.
I know that for instance many government documents are printed in the Print Shop at Arbour Hill, the same prison also has a textiles workshop which makes all the sheets ,pillowcases, and duvet covers for the Irish Prisons, and its woodwork shop makes furniture for Barrettstown.
Similar workshops can be found in other prisons.
Prisoners also avail of educational courses from basic literacy up to Open University level.

suicide_circus

Doc wrote: »

That's right there aren't enough jobs to go around so why not let prisoners do what is effectively a job someone else could be doing for virtually nothing. That's sure to get the economy going again and be hugely beneficial to the population at large.

Jobsbridge?

meoklmrk91

SocSocPol wrote: »

All prisoners in Irish Jails are already to work, be that in the kitchens, laundry,cleaning landings etc or workshops.
I know that for instance many government documents are printed in the Print Shop at Arbour Hill, the same prison also has a textiles workshop which makes all the sheets ,pillowcases, and duvet covers for the Irish Prisons, and its woodwork shop makes furniture for Barrettstown.
Similar workshops can be found in other prisons.
Prisoners also avail of educational courses from basic literacy up to Open University level.

I wasn't able to find any statistics that stated how many Irish prisoners worked, everything you describe sounds great but I couldn't find anything to back up the part about all prisoners working. I have no doubt that there is great work being done but I would like it if what they created and worked on could be turned into profit in some way. I think it would be a great boost to the prisoners and the prison service itself, might end the days of slopping out etc.

SocSocPol

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

I wasn't able to find any statistics that stated how many Irish prisoners worked, everything you describe sounds great but I couldn't find anything to back up the part about all prisoners working. I have no doubt that there is great work being done but I would like it if what they created and worked on could be turned into profit in some way. I think it would be a great boost to the prisoners and the prison service itself, might end the days of slopping out etc.

http://www.irishprisons.ie/index.php/services-for-prisoners/work-and-training

Figures quoted in this link refer to workshops, they do not include prisoners whose jobs are landing cleaners etc.
Other statistics and information can be found in the Irish Prison Service Annual reports and the Visting Commitee Reports which are available on the IPS website under Publications.

positron

Rynox45 wrote: »

The prison system is sort of stupid. Punishing people by paying for them to live is a backwards idea.

+1. It's supposed to be a punishment, and the list of "rights" and comforts offered in Irish prisons would be far superior to the living standards of vast majority of global population can afford.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It's a bad idea. It would just lead to, what would essentially amount to, a modern day slave trade.

Pointless argument. One will have to 'opt in' by doing committing a crime. Hardly "slave trade".

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

In the year 2009 it cost the taxpayer of Ireland €77,222 to incarcerate each prisoner. The annual budget for the prison service in the same year was nearly €380million.

We should outsource the prison system. I am sure there will be plenty of countries who would offer much better value of "looking after" the prisoners and putting them thru their routines. Prisoners can still learn remotely or whatever in their free time, and can be prepared to live in society when they have finished their term. Also the idea of getting put away in some prison in Asia or Africa - or Israel, or Poland - would really put the fear of law into the local scum, imho!

Jester252

It wouldn't happen as it is a cruel and unusually punishment

Chuck Stone

Oh look - it's a blow-hard authoritarian with fascist fantasies...

..how entertaining.

meoklmrk91

positron wrote: »

+1. It's supposed to be a punishment, and the list of "rights" and comforts offered in Irish prisons would be far superior to the living standards of vast majority of global population can afford.



Pointless argument. One will have to 'opt in' by doing committing a crime. Hardly "slave trade".



We should outsource the prison system. I am sure there will be plenty of countries who would offer much better value of "looking after" the prisoners and putting them thru their routines. Prisoners can still learn remotely or whatever in their free time, and can be prepared to live in society when they have finished their term. Also the idea of getting put away in some prison in Asia or Africa - or Israel, or Poland - would really put the fear of law into the local scum, imho!

Wow! Wouldnt subscribe to those ideas whatsoever. America has some the harshest prisons and harshest sentences in the western world and it has done nothing for them. Treating people like that will get a country no where.

Just want to state that I really don't understand why an voluntary programme which would help prisoners upskilling and help to the prison service and hopefully make it better is classed as slave labour, or a cruel punishment. Surely then we should all sit at home on the dole because working is a punishment and is cruel.

Lyaiera

positron wrote: »

We should outsource the prison system. I am sure there will be plenty of countries who would offer much better value of "looking after" the prisoners and putting them thru their routines. Prisoners can still learn remotely or whatever in their free time, and can be prepared to live in society when they have finished their term. Also the idea of getting put away in some prison in Asia or Africa - or Israel, or Poland - would really put the fear of law into the local scum, imho!

I really like your list of awful places to go to: two continents, a democracy in the Middle East and a member of the EU.

Pushtrak

Doc wrote: »

No I don’t think you’re getting the point. Say I own a company making something like licence plates. Now say the government starts forcing prisoners to make licence plates. What happens to my company that is employing people?

So, you don't have the prisoners making licence plates, or whatever other examples you might care to come up with. There would surely be something that the prisoners that could do that would avoid this issue, no?

positron

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Oh look - it's a blow-hard authoritarian with fascist fantasies... ..how entertaining.

I didn't realise that could be classified as 'authoritarian' and 'fascist'. But how else do you propose we save on the cost of running our prisons while continue to serve the community as a deterrent for criminals? I could be wrong in how I want to implement these things, but I do feel there is lack of justice here when the state doesn't have funds to offer better health service for children, while we blow 78k, more than twice the average industrial wage if I remember correctly, per prisoner per year?

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Wow! Wouldnt subscribe to those ideas whatsoever. America has some the harshest prisons and harshest sentences in the western world and it has done nothing for them. Treating people like that will get a country no where.

I don't think America's issues can all be blamed on their jail system. Also I wasn't recommending following that model. Its not a comparable situation really.

Lyaiera wrote: »

I really like your list of awful places to go to: two continents, a democracy in the Middle East and a member of the EU.

I was generally pointing out areas that would be least pleasant to be in a jail I supposed - surely we all have heard of the horror stories from Asian jails, and Israel and Poland I suppose are the "european" options - Israel being big into their security and intelligence and enough man power for things like this, where as Poland being a cheaper EU option. I was only ranting anyway!

Andrew Flexing

Get a Chain Gang going......

laoch na mona

We should get prisoners to fix rural roads since the council couldn't be arsed to do their job
and every day they work could get them half a day off their sentence

SafeSurfer

Arbeit Macht Frei

Sleepy

I really like this idea of out-sourcing prisons.

positron

It's a reasonable idea depending on the context.

Making prisoners work against their will and without decent wages? No, that's slavery and there is no justification for it.

But I would be in favour of offering free education to prisoners. Like it not, there are people in prison because they actually did come from genuinely disadvantaged backgrounds and never really had a fighting chance to begin with.

positron wrote:

But how else do you propose we save on the cost of running our prisons while continue to serve the community as a deterrent for criminals?

How about we stop sending people to prison for trivial crimes like drug possession? Prison is a place for the like of rapists, murderers, corrupt politicians and criminal bankers. The prison system should not be admired, it should be seen as a vile but necessary evil whose sole purpose is to prevent a small few from harming the rest of us.

stovelid

Goddamn prisoners taking our jobs

JustAThought

.... The prison system should not be admired, it should be seen as a vile but necessary evil whose sole purpose is to prevent a small few from harming the rest of us.[/Quote]

I disagree. The majority of scangers arnt prosecuted , or get off relatively lightly.
How about instead if pandering to the prisoners the VICTIMS are considered.
Any pay for work they do goes to a charity of the victims choice; or to pay their medical costs; or counselling forthem; or to make their lives better in whatever way the victim sees fit ; this could be paying fir a stolen & burned out car; " replacing" smashed windows or vandalised property; or for home help fir tasks they cannot do due to injury or paying for someone to be there for them to support them after the rape/burglary/hut&run/knife attack.

It's not all about the criminal knackeres.

frag420

mikom wrote: »

Don't be giving Micheal O'Leary ideas.

ConAir??

technu36

Why not get them working on a farm growing their own produce, eating their own food, that would save on some of the 78,000

Lyaiera

technu36 wrote: »

Why not get them working on a farm growing their own produce, eating their own food, that would save on some of the 78,000

If Porridge is anything to go by they used to do that in Britain.

christmas2012

I agree its time to get them working and why not,jobbridge and fas should be for them not for us,(real jobs intiaitives should be for us)it should be a free labour gig where they earn their keep and get payed nothing,the problem with prisons is they are not profitable at all,thats why we have no expansion to house all the prisoners we need to,and why there is overcrowding,we cut out that problem if prisons can be profitable..

meoklmrk91

technu36 wrote: »

Why not get them working on a farm growing their own produce, eating their own food, that would save on some of the 78,000

There is horticulture included in the prison services work shops, so I assume at least 1 prison does something like this. Certainly and interesting idea.

Nodin

Pushtrak wrote: »

So, you don't have the prisoners making licence plates, or whatever other examples you might care to come up with. There would surely be something that the prisoners that could do that would avoid this issue, no?

No, logically.

Rawhead

technu36 wrote: »

Why not get them working on a farm growing their own produce, eating their own food, that would save on some of the 78,000

That's exactly what Shanganagh prison did. Micheal McDowell closed it along with 3 other prisons and now we have overcrowding again. The farms in Shanganagh actually supplied veg to the other prisons.
Mountjoy bakery supplies the Dublin prisons with bread.
Arbour Hill print shop supplies all the services stationary supplies.

There is no reason that work like litter removal on roads and cleaning of community areas couldn't be done by prison work parties. Anything more than that can lead to exploitation, that was the premise behind the Shawshank.

old_aussie

Prisoners are already learning skills in jail.

Like rape, robbery, assault, forgery and extortion.

All the skills to make sure they are successful in their next job.

They should be pressed into road gangs and hard labour jobs to earn their keep.

scdublin

Watched some of the shows, great idea! Most of the inmates would probably actually want to do something to give them experience and somewhat of a chance when they get back outside.

Rawhead

We could dump them all on an island on the other side of the world and see what happens.

I'd bet they turn in to a bunch of loud, obnoxious, crude, ignorant animals.

Nodin

Rawhead wrote: »

.....

There is no reason that work like litter removal on roads and cleaning of community areas couldn't be done by prison work parties. ......

Puts council workers out of a job....

CucaFace

I have it.

How about putting them in a giant hamster wheel thing where they have to run for a few hours a day which generates electricty which the Govt can then sell onto the national grid?

It would teach them a lesson which would make them change their ways for fear of going back to prision again and having to do this agiain for a few years, plus would add some value to their time in prison.

Everyone's a winner.

Plus it would great reality TV also.