Isn't it time we got our prisoners working?

laoch na mona

CucaFace wrote: »

I have it.

How about putting them in a giant hamster wheel thing where they have to run for a few hours a day which generates electricty which the Govt can then sell onto the national grid?

It would teach them a lesson which would make them change their ways for fear of going back to prision again and having to do this agiain for a few years, plus would add some value to their time in prison.

Everyone's a winner.

Plus it would great reality TV also.

Brazil do something like this it was in the news a while ago

BraziliaNZ

I'm sure a lot of them would probably like to do some kind of outdoors work, better than being stuck in a cell all day. It would be ridiculously hard to organise without the threat of people running etc, so it's not going to happen. Can't think of much they can make indoors either.
A lot of prisoners are there because society as failed them, a lot are opportunist criminals and a lot are just plain evil. I don't buy the hard and tough Texas government brutal regimes though, it just makes them hate society and authority even more, making them probably even more dangerous when they get out.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

I disagree. The majority of scangers arnt prosecuted , or get off relatively lightly.

What is this I don't even...

Not all people in prison are scangers, and even if they are, not all of them are in prison for actually hurting anyone. There are non-violent crimes which receive prison sentences and which have resulted in an overcrowded prison system.

Also, a minority of what we'd call 'scangers' are guilty of violent crimes and not all violent criminals are scangers.

JustAThought wrote:

How about instead if pandering to the prisoners the VICTIMS are considered.

Did I say the victim shouldn't be considered? It's why violent criminals are sent to prison in the first place. The solution to the overcrowing is to stop sending people to prison for crimes which are non-violent or haven't caused damage to another's wellbeing or property.

JustAThought wrote:

Any pay for work they do goes to a charity of the victims choice; or to pay their medical costs; or counselling forthem; or to make their lives better in whatever way the victim sees fit ; this could be paying fir a stolen & burned out car; " replacing" smashed windows or vandalised property; or for home help fir tasks they cannot do due to injury or paying for someone to be there for them to support them after the rape/burglary/hut&run/knife attack.

That's really stupid. You're again assuming everyone in prison actually did something like that - and I'm not even taking into account anyone who was falsely imprisoned.

Slavery (and that's what you're advocating; don't deny it) is disgusting no matter what the circumstances. If they're in prison, they've already had their most important right (liberty) revoked and are no longer a threat to others, which is the whole point of imprisonment. The state has such power and authority that it can't be allowed to actively punish people, only protect us from those who would infringe on our individual rights.

If you're so concerned about violent criminals getting off too easily, then actually address that issue instead of trying to do some kind of crazy, roundabout patch-job on it by arguing for forced labour.

JustAThought wrote:

It's not all about the criminal knackeres.

Bzzzt, calling Guinness World Records: we have a contender for the most fallacies in a forum post.

Chuck Stone

positron wrote: »

But how else do you propose we save on the cost of running our prisons while continue to serve the community as a deterrent for criminals?

Stop locking people up for lesser crimes. Explore alternatives like house arrest (tagging), treatment for drug addicts instead of punishment, relax drug laws, no prison for fines (remove costs from wages or welfare).

Take that garlic scam guy. Why not fine him x4/5/6 what he tried to get away with instead of giving him an expensive prison term? Such an approach would might render the tackling of white collar crime self-financing (perhaps profitable?)

You know.. let's try humane stuff.

Jarren

Well , they could start learning how to dance for starters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnk7lh9M3o

1ZRed

Why don't we just stick them down a mine and get some use out of them? Sitting around in a cell is too good for a lot of them and is a drain on resources.

Throw in the odd banker for good measure of course. But you'd sooner catch a unicorn then one of those wiley cunts though!

positron

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Stop locking people up for lesser crimes. Explore alternatives like house arrest (tagging), treatment for drug addicts instead of punishment, relax drug laws, no prison for fines (remove costs from wages or welfare).

Take that garlic scam guy. Why not fine him x4/5/6 what he tried to get away with instead of giving him an expensive prison term? Such an approach would might render the tackling of white collar crime self-financing (perhaps profitable?)

You know.. let's try humane stuff.

I know that you know you are tweaking the argument in your favour by comparing an extreme punishment example by throwing a 'soft crime' type thing that's arguable as is even within the current setup.

I am all for trying the humane stuff - but at what cost? Where should you get the money to be humane with criminals? By cutting spending on childrens health? Or by increasing taxes on people who are already struggling?

To be honest, if someone is committing a crime against you, he/she is denying you of your human rights, so criminals come second in my list for 'people who deserve human rights'.

And since when is access to television a human right? If you compare the scale of niceties offered to Irish prisoners, they are probably doing better than about 75% of this globe's population you know?

twinQuins

JustAThought wrote: »

[...] How about instead if pandering to the prisoners the VICTIMS are considered.
Any pay for work they do goes to a charity of the victims choice; or to pay their medical costs; or counselling forthem; or to make their lives better in whatever way the victim sees fit ; this could be paying fir a stolen & burned out car; " replacing" smashed windows or vandalised property; or for home help fir tasks they cannot do due to injury or paying for someone to be there for them to support them after the rape/burglary/hut&run/knife attack [...]

You mean this?

Chuck Stone

positron wrote: »

I know that you know you are tweaking the argument in your favour by comparing an extreme punishment example by throwing a 'soft crime' type thing that's arguable as is even within the current setup.

You didn't specify which type of criminals in your 'prison ship' approach so you set the tone. For random violence, rape, sexual assault there is no other alternative to rapid incarceration to protect the public.

I am all for trying the humane stuff - but at what cost? Where should you get the money to be humane with criminals? By cutting spending on childrens health? Or by increasing taxes on people who are already struggling?

Keep people out of prison in the first place and the costs will not arise. Let's look towards Scandinavia rather then the US.

To be honest, if someone is committing a crime against you, he/she is denying you of your human rights, so criminals come second in my list for 'people who deserve human rights'.

Human rights were the by-product of WW2, are essentially apolitical, and are like a guideline constitution for humanity - probably one of the better things we've achieved as a species. Incarceration already deprives people of human, civil and political rights in case you didn't notice.

And since when is access to television a human right?

I wasn't aware that access to TV was enshrined as a human right. Anyhoo, TV is an excellent pacifier of people. Consider the millions of people watching soaps and reality TV who sit in their 'cells' every night by choice. TV serves a good function in prison - think about it.

If you compare the scale of niceties offered to Irish prisoners, they are probably doing better than about 75% of this globe's population you know?

And this is something to be ashamed of? We also live in one of the safest countries in the world. I'm confident that if you look at places where it's dangerous to live you will see appalling prison conditions and poor social support structures.

One last thing.. the only person who I've ever heard on these boards explain that bad conditions for prisoners is unfair on prison officers was himself a former prisoner - a little ironic isn't it?

OMARS_COMING_

The prisoners should be allowed make little animals out of match sticks and then we could sell them at the markets

Nodin

CucaFace wrote: »

I have it.

How about putting them in a giant hamster wheel thing where they have to run for a few hours a day which generates electricty which the Govt can then sell onto the national grid?

It would teach them a lesson which would make them change their ways for fear of going back to prision again and having to do this agiain for a few years, plus would add some value to their time in prison.

Everyone's a winner.

Plus it would great reality TV also.

Slave labour, undercuts ESB and whoever.

charlemont

Rawhead wrote: »

That's exactly what Shanganagh prison did. Micheal McDowell closed it along with 3 other prisons and now we have overcrowding again. The farms in Shanganagh actually supplied veg to the other prisons.
Mountjoy bakery supplies the Dublin prisons with bread.
Arbour Hill print shop supplies all the services stationary supplies.

There is no reason that work like litter removal on roads and cleaning of community areas couldn't be done by prison work parties. Anything more than that can lead to exploitation, that was the premise behind the Shawshank.

The problem with that would be administrating it..The prisoners would be under pressure from the real thugs to bring drugs back in, Prison officers are not Gardaí so who would watch over and be in charge of the prisoners outside ?? There would be a lot of escape attempts, What if a prisoner escaped and done something really bad then the state would be liable.

And possibly some funny incidents involving prisoners running off to the pub !!;)

Oranage2

just outsource them to say India. They'll think twice about doing a crime if they know they'll end up hundreds of miles away in third world conditions.

Nodin

Oranage2 wrote: »

just outsource them to say India. They'll think twice about doing a crime if they know they'll end up hundreds of miles away in third world conditions.

Been done. Didn't work.

SocSocPol

Nodin wrote: »

Been done. Didn't work.

Thats true
And look at the mess they made of Oz!:D




Funny thing is these days they wont let you in if you have a criminal conviction...lol

meoklmrk91

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I'm sure a lot of them would probably like to do some kind of outdoors work, better than being stuck in a cell all day. It would be ridiculously hard to organise without the threat of people running etc, so it's not going to happen. Can't think of much they can make indoors either.
A lot of prisoners are there because society as failed them, a lot are opportunist criminals and a lot are just plain evil. I don't buy the hard and tough Texas government brutal regimes though, it just makes them hate society and authority even more, making them probably even more dangerous when they get out.

See I don't think they have to be outdoors, I think there is plenty they can do. Maybe some of the lads from Shelton Abbey and the like could do something like that in order to help the community around the prison.

For instance they could like in the Gordon Ramsey programme bake, sell goods at the local farmers market, cakes, jam etc.. Someone else has mentioned that they should grow their own veg, a good sized plot to start with with the aim of supplying themselves completely with fruit and veg. Why not have free range chickens as well to supply the prison with eggs, surplus could be sent to other prisons or again sold locally.

Perhaps the boys who do carpentery could make stuff commissioned by the general public, I.e. paddy wants a new set of tables and chairs, commissions them and the prisoners then make them.

Honestly I think the possibilities are endless. Plus I think this will provide jobs for the rest of us as well, local carpenter out of a job rarely gets work as there are no houses being built, gets a job supervising the lads in the work shop, helping them when they need it and teaching them new bits and pieces.

vard

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Has anyone else been watching Gordon behind bars on C4, it follows Gordon Ramsey as he goes inside Brixton Prison and sets about training a group of prisoners to cook and set up a business, bad boys bakery, in order to have them earn their keep, teach them a skill etc. 2 of the lads he trained are now even working in restaurants on the outside which is obviously great.

The minister for justice in GB has stated that he wants to double the workforce in britains prisons by 2020, meaning 20k prisoners would be working full time. He also stated that the money they were paid could go as maintenance for their families on the outside and possibly a little nest egg which they could use for training, learning new skills when they get out provided that they stay out of trouble.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9355818/Factory-prisons-will-allow-inmates-to-support-families-on-the-outside.html

Now Ireland has a much smaller prisone service than the UK, we have 14 prisons they have 139, a 2010 report showed that they have 85,458, in January 2011 our prison population stood at 4,541. In the year 2009 it cost the taxpayer of Ireland €77,222 to incarcerate each prisoner. The annual budget for the prison service in the same year was nearly €380million.

So my point is let's get them working teach them to do something figure out how make money off it, have them earn their keep and put something back into the public coffers, give them a wage and use that to pay maintenance for their children so less money will have to come from social welfare if the mothers should happen to be on it and if not all the better, the fathers should be paying maintenance, if the uk are planning to have 20,000 of their prisoners working by 2020 then why can't we have half of ours doing the same.

This isn't an anti prisoner rant this is a case of getting people into the habit of working and giving them a chance to better themselves,1,219 prisoners participated in various accredited courses in 2011, obviously this is great, but why not put a pilot scheme in place where they can practice what they have been taught in their courses and make money for themselves, this work experience could also really help them to get work or further their education when they get out.

I know this will cost money but like I said even a pilot scheme at one if the smaller prisons could get the ball rolling, if run properly they could be not only successful but turn a meaningful profit.

While I agree with you; we should get prisoners working... your reference to Gordon Behind Bars is rather misplaced.

It is not a documentary. It's almost entirely scripted and the cast is largely contained of hired actors. I know people involved in the production. It's entirely set up, as with most touted "reality" tv these days.

meoklmrk91

vard wrote: »

While I agree with you; we should get prisoners working... your reference to Gordon Behind Bars is rather misplaced.

It is not a documentary. It's almost entirely scripted and the cast is largely contained of hired actors. I know people involved in the production. It's entirely set up, as with most touted "reality" tv these days.

While I would hope that C4 has more integrity than that, it is beside the point, the only reason I mention it is because it has been popular and has pushed the whole thing to the forefront ofpeoples minds.

Rawhead

charlemont wrote: »

The problem with that would be administrating it..The prisoners would be under pressure from the real thugs to bring drugs back in, Prison officers are not Gardaí so who would watch over and be in charge of the prisoners outside ?? There would be a lot of escape attempts, What if a prisoner escaped and done something really bad then the state would be liable.

And possibly some funny incidents involving prisoners running off to the pub !!;)

We had work parties for years. They helped build community centers and playgrounds all over Dublin. PO's don't need to be Gardai, they are in the custody of the officers inside or outside the prison.
You screen the prisoners you select for work parties and if the odd one runs, then let them, you'll catch them having breakfast with mammy the next morning. The majority of prisoners on work parties where first timers and usually had a trade.
As for bullying and drugs, you just search them the same you do the dozens of other prisoners who enter and leave a prison everyday.

charlemont

Rawhead wrote: »

We had work parties for years. They helped build community centers and playgrounds all over Dublin. PO's don't need to be Gardai, they are in the custody of the officers inside or outside the prison.
You screen the prisoners you select for work parties and if the odd one runs, then let them, you'll catch them having breakfast with mammy the next morning. The majority of prisoners on work parties where first timers and usually had a trade.
As for bullying and drugs, you just search them the same you do the dozens of other prisoners who enter and leave a prison everyday.

Cool, I hadn't thought of the above. But I was under the impression that the OP wants something like in the US were there would be large chain gangs working...

I ended up in the Joy myself on a warrant years ago and the prisoners were asking me did I put my name down to go cycling in the Pheonix Park on the Sunday, And me being naive went up to the Prison Officer in charge of the landing and asked him about it, He was in tears laughing and the prisoners were also in knots.

Oranage2

Nodin wrote: »

Been done. Didn't work.

Not sure how it 'didn't work'?

Rapists and murderers were sent away and didn't come back - sounds like a success to me.

Nodin

Oranage2 wrote: »

Not sure how it 'didn't work'?

Rapists and murderers were sent away and didn't come back - sounds like a success to me.

Fraudsters, theives, rapists, murderers were sent away. This didn't stop fraud, thieving, rape or murder.

I suggest
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html

Goat the dote

As someone who was the victim of a serious crime against me I would be all for making prisoners (the serious ones like rapists, abusers murderers) slaves. Actually I'd be all for reintroducing the death penalty. Would save the 77k a year too

Nodin

Goat the dote wrote: »

As someone who was the victim of a serious crime against me I would be all for making prisoners (the serious ones like rapists, abusers murderers) slaves. Actually I'd be all for reintroducing the death penalty. Would save the 77k a year too

Thats revenge, and the bastard that did it may well deserve it, but if you want to prevent others going through the same thing, a different approach is required.

Donnielighto

Prisoners working jobs wouldnt take away from the jobs of the general populace, sure the occasional one would be lost but others would be created, there would be a net gain/parity. Should be done. The fear over jobs is misplaced.

Piste

I think if we want prisoners to reintegrate with society on release we need to be equipping then with the skills to do so in prison, which includes work skills, so yes in theory I'd be in favour of them working. In practice though it means not taking people off the live register to fill these jobs.

Oranage2

Nodin wrote: »

Fraudsters, theives, rapists, murderers were sent away. This didn't stop fraud, thieving, rape or murder.

I suggest
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html

Norway still has murderers rapists etc too. The only difference is they have an extremely low crime rate to begin with.

As a previous poster has said the only way to stop re offenders is a bullet to the brain for serious offenses.

Some people are just bad eggs that need disposing of.

Chuck Stone

Goat the dote wrote: »

Actually I'd be all for reintroducing the death penalty. Would save the 77k a year too

Na.

$37.2 million for each of the state’s five executions since the state [Maryland] reenacted the death penalty.


Source

Piste

Nodin wrote: »

Fraudsters, theives, rapists, murderers were sent away. This didn't stop fraud, thieving, rape or murder.

I suggest
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html

That seems like a MUCH better system! They're actually addressing the causes of crime- a feeling of exclusion from society, no sense of belonging or how to interact with others. I don't know why we lock people away in cages with people just like them, effectively tell them they're not worth ****, and then expect them to be model citizens when they come back out. Who on earth could ever have thought this was a good idea?

All locking people away and forgetting about them serves to do is fulfill some misplaced sense of revenge and retribution we may have. Surely it's a better sign to victims that we as a society take the crime committed against them seriously if we dont lock away the criminals and forget about them until they reoffend, but if we actively engage with them like they do in Norwegian prisons.

Oranage2

Piste wrote: »

That seems like a MUCH better system! They're actually addressing the causes of crime- a feeling of exclusion from society, no sense of belonging or how to interact with others. I don't know why we lock people away in cages with people just like them, effectively tell them they're not worth ****, and then expect them to be model citizens when they come back out. Who on earth could ever have thought this was a good idea?

All locking people away and forgetting about them serves to do is fulfill some misplaced sense of revenge and retribution we may have. Surely it's a better sign to victims that we as a society take the crime committed against them seriously if we dont lock away the criminals and forget about them until they reoffend, but if we actively engage with them like they do in Norwegian prisons.

I'm not sure it is addressing the cause of crime. Crime happens because of large social divides. The more people in the lower classes the more crime. I'm sure if you take Mount Joy the large majority (80+%) of people will be from poor areas. I've no doubt the same in the US and England. The only way to reduce crime is to make everybody middle class or make everybody poor.



And if we're talking about prison structures. Japan has a less Prison Population Rate per national population than Norway. They torture and hang prisoners. Dont be fooled by the Norwegian system, it's no miracle cure.

Piste

That system doesn't stop people becoming criminals, it just lowers the recidivism rates of people who do go on to become criminals. Of course intensive social investment is needed to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place.