Girl (19) dies on 2 hour ambulance ride to hospital

cocoshovel

As far as Im aware, ambulances don't have GPS's. Also, dont be blaming them. Its not their fault they were given wrong directions. Its not their fault the hospital A&E was closed, and its not their fault that they dont know every single backroad/street in the area.
There's only 2 of them in a crew. 1 is in the back, and the one is driving. Even with maps its very hard to go wrong in where you're driving and thats something everybody can relate to.

Felexicon

Donnielighto wrote: »

it does, not everyone can be saved, a tragedy but not one that was economically viable to prepare for. sure a load (15) of locals i know in roscommon town itself wouldnt use that hospital

Agh jesus, really mate. A bit distasteful and if I'm saying that it must be bad

tmc86

Felexicon wrote: »

Not what I said at all. But then I think you know that. If you'll let the red mist settle for a minute and read my post again you will notice that I never said we should just be sheep and follow the leader.
We should of course be complaining about the cuts to health care and other important services. My point is that it needs to be done by people who have an understanding about the inner workings of such things.

I agree that it needs to be done by people who have the understanding but these people don't seem to be listening that well and doing much about it and I also agree with your red mist comment, very fair point.

The problems in this country are obvious and I think we can assume that the majority of the country are not happy with how things are being dealt with and more and more people are making themselves heard. I'm sure you can agree with how frustrating it is to see these obvious problems and people voicing their anger but nothing being done about it.

I don't mean to take away anything from the original thread topic, it is a tragic event and unfortunately its all too easy for a thread to turn into a political bashing recession blaming thread these days which I think just highlights the anger and frustration out there.

Back on topic, thoughts are with the family and may the young woman be at peace now.

hondasam

davet82 wrote: »

I believe it to be an issue, I think it highlights the travel time for A&E for the people of roscommon and surrounding areas

Maybe i am being niave being from Dublin but the idea of being an hour and a half + away from an A&E wouldnt sit easy with me, i'm open to correction btw if this is the norm?

I'm an hour away from a hospital so it's common if you live in the country.
You have to remember it takes an ambulance an hour to get to the scene and the same to get to the hospital.

Son Of A Vidic

hondasam wrote: »

The hospital is saying she would not have survived and the family don't seem to be disputing that.

What I read coming from a HSE source and the reality on the ground, are very often two different realities. I remember working in St. James a couple of years ago. The A&E dept had been in crisis for several days, with patients forced into sitting on the ground along the corridor. It got so bad with patient crowding, that the corridor had to be closed to all other traffic.

When the crisis was eventually leaked and reported on Six One News, a HSE suit went on air and blatantly lied stating there was no over crowding/crisis. The next day a member of staff took a picture of the crowded corridor and the packed department. Hence I always take what the HSE says with a pinch of salt.

hondasam wrote: »

It's still not good enough but rural areas can be hard to navigate. I think this is just to highlight the hospital closure rather than the death of a young girl.

Yes and navigation shouldn't even be the issue here. This is a small little country, so meeting best standards for trauma care should be easy enough to meet. But unfortunately, medical sites in strategic locations have been stripped bear with cuts and closures.

So it's frequently a case of needing to send a critical patient on the onward journey. Which from a clinical perspective, is the worst thing to do and not best practice. Regrettably though, it's usually the only course of action available.

Meanwhile, NAMA pays bloated salaries to the developer scum, to manage their own mismanaged portfolios. What is it 100 - 200K per year? Funds that could undoubtedly be better used elsewhere.

Donnielighto wrote: »

sure a load (15) of locals i know in roscommon town itself wouldnt use that hospital

A load of locals? Fifteen you say? Wow! You obviously missed the memo and the large protests that took place in Roscommon town, supporting, praising and trying to protect the hospital. So am I safe in assuming those '15' weren't part of the mass protest then?

Felexicon

ejmaztec wrote: »

The reasons for the government doing this are obvious, and it needed to be done even before the bail-out.

I posted to contradict your argument that the government has no power to make decisions, by pointing out that the government has decided to dismantle the HSE. I didn't ask for the reasons for it happening.

Sorry I took you up wrong then. Yes you're right in essence the government have the power to make the individual desicions that we see the effect of

Felexicon

Donnielighto wrote: »

the cost of a life in ireland is about €30000

this is an issue of managing resources, life aint priceless and with limited resources you do what is best for the overall population

Why don't you do a collection to raise €30,000 for the girls parents and see if they agree that that is all thier daughters life was worth

RacoonQueen

seamus wrote: »

I would hold most anger at the local who directed an ambulance down a poor route. If you don't know the route, just say you don't know!

I'm not sure about that. From reading the article, the route the local directed them down passed Roscommon hospital. Maybe they thought thats where they were taking her.

Larbre34

This exact scenario was destined to happen sooner or later, such was the folly of the policy. Im only so sorry it was such a young person that had to pass away to prove the point. My sympathies to her family and friends, RIP

Meanwhile Minister Volatile Reilly should follow Mr Magee out the next available door, as a medical professional and former IMO head he should never have allowed himself to be compromised to preside over such an obviously disgraceful policy.

May the whole cabinet and every mandarin and advisor who counted the beans and agreed to this see this girls face in their dreams for the rest of their days

seamus

davet82 wrote: »

Maybe i am being niave being from Dublin but the idea of being an hour and a half + away from an A&E wouldnt sit easy with me, i'm open to correction btw if this is the norm?

That's a slightly different issue.

What we're really talking about here is acute A&E facilities, set up to deal with serious issues.

The most logical way to sort these things out would be to look at population distribution and come up with the optimal positioning of hospitals, such that a majority of the population are within an hour of an A&E.

Outside of that, the next best option is to operate acute facilities in major urban areas, which is what we do at the moment.

You can't operate a 24 hour A&E in every town in the country, so commenting that an A&E used to exist near to the spot where an accident occurred is a bit pointless unless that's an accident black spot which was constantly sending casualities to that hospital. It's unfortunate, yes, and ironic in the Alanis Morrisette way, but I can't see what else it means.

Does a single incident indicate that the A&E shouldn't have been closed? Of course not. If the A&E had existed would this girl have been saved? Probably not.

The closure of Roscommon A&E is a sidenote to this story. It's ultimately not relevant.

Rascasse

Larbre34 wrote: »

This exact scenario was destined to happen sooner or later, such was the folly of the policy. Im only so sorry it was such a young person that had to pass away to prove the point. My sympathies to her family and friends, RIP

Meanwhile Minister Volatile Reilly should follow Mr Magee out the next available door, as a medical professional and former IMO head he should never have allowed himself to be compromised to preside over such an obviously disgraceful policy.

May the whole cabinet and every mandarin and advisor who counted the beans and agreed to this see this girls face in their dreams for the rest of their days

Read the article. Her injuries were not survivable.

Don't let get in the way of hyperbole, though.

Kess73

seamus wrote: »

That's a slightly different issue.

What we're really talking about here is acute A&E facilities, set up to deal with serious issues.

The most logical way to sort these things out would be to look at population distribution and come up with the optimal positioning of hospitals, such that a majority of the population are within an hour of an A&E.

Outside of that, the next best option is to operate acute facilities in major urban areas, which is what we do at the moment.

You can't operate a 24 hour A&E in every town in the country, so commenting that an A&E used to exist near to the spot where an accident occurred is a bit pointless unless that's an accident black spot which was constantly sending casualities to that hospital. It's unfortunate, yes, and ironic in the Alanis Morrisette way, but I can't see what else it means.

Does a single incident indicate that the A&E shouldn't have been closed? Of course not. If the A&E had existed would this girl have been saved? Probably not.

The closure of Roscommon A&E is a sidenote to this story. It's ultimately not relevant.

If the A&E department in the hospital the ambulance had to drive near had been open, then the girl may have had a much better chance of surviving.


A 24 hour A&E in every town and city may not be feasible, but a minimum of one in each county could save lives.

Where To

davet82 wrote: »

seamus wrote: »

If it is, then it's a non-issue.

I believe it to be an issue, I think it highlights the travel time for A&E for the people of roscommon and surrounding areas

Maybe i am being niave being from Dublin but the idea of being an hour and a half + away from an A&E wouldnt sit easy with me, i'm open to correction btw if this is the norm?

Yep pretty much the norm. If I needed an ambulance right now (12.43) there's no way I'd be in A&E before 2.30

Kess73

Rascasse wrote: »

Read the article. Her injuries were not survivable.

In the view of the ambulance service, her injuries were not survivable. That is a view that may or may not be agreed with by medical specialists in a hospital had they gotten the girl an hour or two hours earlier.

Plus a statement is hardly going to be put out stating that the girl would have survived if they got to a hospital sooner.

The ambulance crew are not at fault in anyway in my eyes as I am sure that they got to the scene as quickly as they could, and that they also tried to get the gird to a hospital as quickly as they could. But one cannot help but to think that there may have been a chance, however slim, of a better outcome had they a much shorter journey to make.

Bambii_

That is a disgrace! That poor girl is dead and her family devastated just because the government would rather make cutbacks on health care than their own wages & expenses account! Hope they're happy now! >< I hate reading things like this, its a disgrace ><

davet82

seamus wrote: »

Does a single incident indicate that the A&E shouldn't have been closed? Of course not. If the A&E had existed would this girl have been saved? Probably not.

only time will tell if the A&E should have been closed but its definatley a warning imo.

cson

hondasam wrote: »

You have to remember it takes an ambulance an hour to get to the scene and the same to get to the hospital.

I'm pretty sure Roscommon has an Ambulance Station so unlikely it'd take an hour. I know thats the situation in a lot of places; Ambulance cover but no A&E.

Seamus is right in saying that if Portiuncula sent her onto Galway then its highly likely had Roscommon A&E been open it would have done the same. The reality of the situation is that there are only 3 places that can deal with major trauma in the country; Dublin, Cork and Galway. The further away from these places you are, the less of a chance you have.

davet82

Where To wrote: »

Yep pretty much the norm. If I needed an ambulance right now (12.43) there's no way I'd be in A&E before 2.30

thats scary

cson

Kess73 wrote: »

In the view of the ambulance service, her injuries were not survivable. That is a view that may or may not be agreed with by medical specialists in a hospital had they gotten the girl an hour or two hours earlier.

To be fair Kess they quoted medical literature showing the injuries the young lady had were at the zero percent survival scale.

cocoshovel

davet82 wrote: »

thats scary

Im 30 minutes from the nearest A&E. and 35minutes from another one in the opposite direction. Even that makes me uneasy, as I know if one of my family members goes into cardiac arrest/stops breathing. They're dead.

And being 30 minutes from A&E doesnt mean the ambulance will get to you in that time. The ambulance station is a seperate entity from A&E, and when there is only 2 ambulances for your entire county then you never know where they might be. If they're off busy with something else then you have an even longer wait.

Mr Simpson

hondasam wrote: »

It did crash and the patient was taken by ambulance to hospital so why was it needed in the first place ?

Because, the best option is to transport by air in these cases, the patient was only transported by road because there was no other option

Johnnio13 wrote: »

Shocking story byt should a helicopter not have been called when a possible life and death RTA takes place?

The air ambulance wasn't in service at this time.

Davidth88 wrote: »

It has been replaced/repaired or whatever , it is operational

Could it have been used in this case ?

It's shocking that the ambulance in effect got lost on the way to the hospital to to the casualty ( which is slightly more understandable )

It could have been used, if it had been launched at this time. This RTA took place on November 6th last year.

seamus

Kess73 wrote: »

If the A&E department in the hospital the ambulance had to drive near had been open, then the girl may have had a much better chance of surviving.

And if there was an A&E in Buncrana, then the young man killed this morning may have had a better chance of surviving.
That's my point - a single incident is not a good case for or against the closure of an A&E.

A 24 hour A&E in every town and city may not be feasible, but a minimum of one in each county could save lives.

Unfortunately while we like to think every life is precious, the cold reality is that we don't have an unlimited supply of resources and we can't just throw money at medical services on the basis that it will save lives.

There is a line somewhere where you get the maximum population coverage for the most reasonable/sustainable/justifiable amount of money you spend.
Whether an A&E in every county would fall on that line, I don't know but I suspect not. Many counties have such low populations that a 24 A&E would simply be a waste.

Chorcai

Could they not have used the air ambulance and got her to Dublin or Galway ? do we even have an air ambulance, bar the coast guard ?

Mr Simpson

As I said above, we have an air ambulance now. But this accident took place on November 6th 2011.

PictureFrame

This is just one tragedy that is going to occur again and again until it's realised that life is more important that money.. This is absolutely disgraceful on the Governments behalf and they ought to be completely ASHAMED of what their actions have caused.


They can try and shove as much as they want under the rug, but when something like this happens, which should not have occurred in the 21st Century in a Developed country for God sakes, people will come together and start demanding answers..


Best of luck to those backward Politicians who have to try and 'snake' their way out of this one.


Disgrace.. :mad:

coolmoose

Just a few things

1. As a profession, we're Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics, not ambulance drivers
2. No GPS on ambulances
3. Using smartphone mapping depends on data connection - not available everywhere, and especially not when you need it
4. GPS even if it was available, is not the end of the problem - proper postcode system would do far more for this country
5. Directions from locals are life-saving the majority of the time - try find your way around an area at night with minimal directions from the caller (may not even be their fault, they may not know where they are!). Sometimes the only way of getting to a call is by directions from locals.
6. Air ambulance service not available outside of daylight hours
7. Housing estates are the worst - impossible to navigate, tiny numbers on doors - instead of large numbers on a pillar near the road. Or like a lot of houses, no numbers - the guessing game begins!

oh, and had to be said:

8. An ambulance can be dispatched to anywhere in the country from anywhere else, it's a national service. So I can tell you straight out now that if I'm ever dispatched to a call in Roscommon, I won't know where I'm going either! Even to say that we should know every road, lane and boreen in our respective areas is pushing it a bit IMO!

Kess73

cson wrote: »

To be fair Kess they quoted medical literature showing the injuries the young lady had were at the zero percent survival scale.

They claimed that the survival rate for blunt traumatic cardiac arrest, nationally and internationally, is "approximately zero per cent"

Maybe in Ireland there is a 0% survival rate, but that dismal figure is not the norm, and one would only have to look as far as the UK to see that 0% international claim is simply not true.

Now if a patient is already in blunt traumatic cardiac arrest by the time the ambulance arrives, and the patient shows no sign of responding after at least 5 full minutes of resuscitation, then any further effort is seen as futile, but if the patient goes into arrest at the scene after the arrival of the ambulance or during the trip to the hospital, then the survival rate is higher and certainly not 0%.

Given that the girl did not die until she was 30 minutes from the Galway, the first scenario of not being responsive after five minutes of resuscitation does not apply.

I know in the UK that if one suffers from a massive blunt traumatic cardiac arrest whilst enroute to a hospital that the crew will attempt to resuscitate for 20 minutes without response before it is termed as futile.


So given that the accident took place only 15 minutes from the Roscommon hospital, I would suggest that she may have had a chance, however slim, had she gone into blunt traumatic cardiac arrest inside the hospital rather than doing so inside a moving ambulance with less equipment.

UDP

Are people unable to read what was reported by the newspaper?

An A&E unit like that in Roscommon i.e. Ballinasloe, could not deal with the accident so why the f'uck are people talking about cuts and A&E closures? Plus even the experts said she would not have survived anyway.

Its a tragic loss of life due to a car crash.

What are people still arguing about here?
Should the discussion not be about road safety etc. and what possibly caused the accident so that something could be improved.

The mind boggles

mongdesade

coolmoose wrote: »

Just a few things

1. As a profession, we're Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics, not ambulance drivers
2. No GPS on ambulances
3. Using smartphone mapping depends on data connection - not available everywhere, and especially not when you need it
4. GPS even if it was available, is not the end of the problem - proper postcode system would do far more for this country
5. Directions from locals are life-saving the majority of the time - try find your way around an area at night with minimal directions from the caller (may not even be their fault, they may not know where they are!). Sometimes the only way of getting to a call is by directions from locals.
6. Air ambulance service not available outside of daylight hours
7. Housing estates are the worst - impossible to navigate, tiny numbers on doors - instead of large numbers on a pillar near the road. Or like a lot of houses, no numbers - the guessing game begins!

It's a tough & sometimes thankless profession...

You & your colleagues have my gratitude & respect for the service the men & women of the ambulance service provide...without whom, I may not be here posting today !

RIP the young girl, a tragic loss.

UDP

Kess73 wrote: »

So given that the accident took place only 15 minutes from the Roscommon hospital, I would suggest that she may have had a chance, however slim, had she gone into blunt traumatic cardiac arrest inside the hospital rather than doing so inside a moving ambulance with less equipment.

Then why did Portiuncula forward the ambulance to Galway? since she died on that route - not on the route from Roscommon to Ballinasloe. This would suggest that experts decided this woman would need a bigger hospital with specialists to have any chance. Roscommon hospital is irrelevant to this situation.