Girl (19) dies on 2 hour ambulance ride to hospital

coolmoose

UDP wrote: »

Apologies, if you look back at my previous posts I did use paramedics. I was just simplifying to specifically speak about the paramedic driving the ambulance.

I understand, thanks, not aimed specifically at you. To me it just makes this whole thing seem like the crews fault when termed as simple, uneducated "drivers".

saiint

Not even a picture of her :O fur fook sake

markpb

davet82 wrote: »

i understand that but i'm sure you will find that the large majority would agree with the people of roscommon and surrounding areas imo, or at least symothise with their concerns? storys like this are bound to cause people concern (regardless of the outcome of the story that started this debate)

It shouldn't matter whether people agree or disagree, it should be about how we can provide the best medical facilities at a price we can afford. Everyone would agree that there should be a hospital with emergency dept. close by but we can't afford it and it wouldn't be the right thing to do.

If nothing else, EDs that serve a small area become less specialised because they deal with fewer incidents. They won't have the equipment or the staff to deal with really serious issues which is why the Portiuncula ED bounced the ambulance to Galway. If Roscommon ED had been open, it would have bounced her to Galway too.

davet82

mikemac1 wrote: »

Nenagh and Ennis lost their nighttime A&E services

Over 80km from West Clare to Limerick Regional

We'll be having much the same thread soon, only a matter of time

Meanwhile Limerick Regional is struggling and overcrowded

Blanchardstown A&E is another they were testing the water for closure, they wont touch this with a barge poll though, why 150,000 + angry voters maybe...

Matter, Beaumont, Tallaght hospitals all within 15 mins of blanchardstown though, does it make sense to close it finacially? probably, would i want to see it closed if i lived in the area? hell no! Does it makes sense more to close this A&E than roscommon... probably

davet82

markpb wrote: »

If Roscommon ED had been open, it would have bounced her to Galway too.

i think the majority can see that now as the story updated and the thread progressed

markpb

davet82 wrote: »

i think the majority can see that now as the story updated and the thread progressed

Then we are people still complaining about Roscommon A&E being closed?

davet82

markpb wrote: »

Then we are people still complaining about Roscommon A&E being closed?

because some people believe it shouldnt have been closed, the debate came up (rightly or wrongly) through this incident regardless if you agree with it or not

UDP

davet82 wrote: »

Blanchardstown A&E is another they were testing the water for closure, they wont touch this with a barge poll though, why 150,000 + angry voters maybe...

Matter, Beaumont, Tallaght hospitals all within 15 mins of blanchardstown though, does it make sense to close it finacially? probably, would i want to see it closed if i lived in the area? hell no! Does it makes sense more to close this A&E than roscommon... probably

I don't know the ins and outs of that but the population of Dublin is very big so thats why there would by more A&E's close by. Of course politics will come into it - it shouldn't though but it will. I am in the blanchardstown area and if it did close because the other hospitals could handle the capacity then I would have no problem with it.

air assault

Reading a story like this makes me wonder why in this day and age and a country of this size we dont have more air ambulances operating. Would make emergency journies a lot quicker.

beeroclock

I'm sure our wonderful politicians will have plenty time to think about this on their 2 month holiday
money grabbing deceitful lying a$$holes the lot of them

RIP

davet82

UDP wrote: »

I am in the blanchardstown area and if it did close because the other hospitals could handle the capacity then I would have no problem with it.

because a politician tells you they can? 'Not anther red cent' ect ect...

they cant be trusted, go look in the A&Es around Dublin, i seriously doubt that they can but thats what they're telling us

UDP

beeroclock wrote: »

I'm sure our wonderful politicians will have plenty time to think about this on their 2 month holiday
money grabbing deceitful lying a$$holes the lot of them

RIP

The bastard$ how dare they murder this woman!

beeroclock

UDP wrote: »

The bastard$ how dare they murder this woman!

Yes how dare they

oh wait that's not what I said!

UDP

beeroclock wrote: »

Yes how dare they

oh wait that's not what I said!

Then what was your point?

beeroclock

UDP wrote: »

Then what was your point?

RIP to that poor person is my point

UDP

beeroclock wrote: »

RIP to that poor person is my point

and what has:

I'm sure our wonderful politicians will have plenty time to think about this on their 2 month holiday
money grabbing deceitful lying a$$holes the lot of them

got to do with that?

knipex

This thread is a perfect example of some of the missunderstandings surrounding healthcare in Ireland and how emotive the entire subject is.

Firstly money or lack there of is of course an issue but even if Ireland had 20 billion a year to spend on healthcare it would not be possible to put a trauma centre with associated A&E in every county in Ireland.

Its just not physically possible. You wouldnt be able to staff them. There just arent enough trained specialist doctors and nurses around to fill them. The really good guys wouldn't work in a small local hospital no matter how much you paid them. They will work at large trauma units where they get to use their skills, teach and do research.

The injuries this lady suffered could only be treated in a hospital with trained specialised trauma surgeons and cardiothorasic thorasic surgeons. There are how many of those in Ireland ?


To have the best possible healthcare what we need in Ireland is probably 4 large well equiped tier one hospitals atached to universities well funded and well equiped with an good air ambulance service based at a number of locations around the country to ensure that they can reach any location and be at the hospital within an hour. Each hospital would have to be well funded both in terms of clinical care and research facilities.

In addition you would need around 6 to 10 large well equiped tier two hospitals (without the trauma centres) were possible also linked to universities.

On top of this you could have perhaps 15 to 20 tier 3 hospitals each associated with a tier 1 or 2 hospitals for training and access to specialist services. Again with 24 hour A&E services.


After that you can have as many community hospitals as you can affoard spread aroud the country offering non critial care such as step down facilites, palative care, geriatric care, physio, perhaps some offering slightly more advanced services such as chemo etc (on a satalite basis) and with injury clinics attached. These would be associated with the the tier 3 hospials and linked via an ambulance service.

This would allow you to focus your resources, attract and keep the top tallent and train the next generation. Interlinking the hospitals would allow this specialist knowledge to be spread much further than would be possible by trying to have 50+ full accute hospitals all over the country.

But can you imagine the uproar if any government tried to implement that ? How many save my hospital protests ?

Rasheed

I'm from Roscommon and I'm also a healthcare professional so its hard to be impartial. By all accounts this girl probably would have died whether in Roscommon/ Ballinasloe/ Galway hospitals. But we dont know.

Perhaps Roscommon would't have bounced her, perhaps they could have stabilised her before her condition deteriorated and pumped her with blood.

As regards Roscommon A and E closure, it's affected the county in so many ways. Nobody knows exactly what you can go to the Urgent care centre there so most continue to Ballinasloe/Sligo/ Mullingar. The knock on effect is these A and E and therefore hospitals are full to capacity, dangerously so. Staff are stretched to their limit.

God knows where it will end but it's sad that there has to be a case like this one, or worst till the government realise what a balls they made of the system.

Dude111

knipex wrote:

This thread is a perfect example of some of the missunderstandings surrounding healthcare in Ireland and how emotive the entire subject is.

I think what it really shows is how people DO NOT CARE as much as they used to..... THEY SLACK OFF,etc...... (And others suffer for it )


Really feel bad for this girl,no reason for what happend to her!

Victor

davet82 wrote: »

idk i live within 15 mins of 4 major hospitals and i feel lucky to do so, if it were my services being cut i'd like some support from my fellow irishman too. I'm no expert on these matters and maybe you guys are totally right but i'd love to see some independant review from the medical proffession and their views not some accountant or some political biased opinions.

My area has lost 3 hospitals and will lose another. The only services left are cancer, ophthalmic/ENT, maternity and hospice - none of which are relevant for me. But I do know that if there are service that I do need, that there are other hospitals that are better skilled and equipped because the doctors are used for what they are best at, rather than having to deal with every possible type of case and their skills being lost.

mikemac1 wrote: »

Nenagh and Ennis lost their nighttime A&E services

Over 80km from West Clare to Limerick Regional

We'll be having much the same thread soon, only a matter of time

Meanwhile Limerick Regional is struggling and overcrowded

So you would have Ennis overstaffed and underused, while diverting resources from Limerick, which is "struggling and overcrowded"? All to serve the people living on Loop head?

air assault wrote: »

Reading a story like this makes me wonder why in this day and age and a country of this size we dont have more air ambulances operating. Would make emergency journies a lot quicker.

Might this have something to do with your user name?

Would you rather one air ambulance (cost, several million to buy, several thousand euros per hour to run) or for the same cost, a dozen or more ordinary ambulances (cost €250,000, perhaps €100-200 per hour to run)?

knipex wrote: »

Firstly money or lack there of is of course an issue but even if Ireland had 20 billion a year to spend on healthcare it would not be possible to put a trauma centre with associated A&E in every county in Ireland.

Teh government alone spends €14bn on healthcare. That is before the contributions from health insurance and people's own pockets. It is quite possible we are already spending that amount of money.

Rasheed wrote: »

As regards Roscommon A and E closure, it's affected the county in so many ways. Nobody knows exactly what you can go to the Urgent care centre there so most continue to Ballinasloe/Sligo/ Mullingar.

If it is life or death, you phone 112 or 999.

Rasheed

Victor wrote: »

If it is life or death, you phone 112 or 999.

Ah cod really? What about a child that has fallen and query broken his arm? Roscommon to be stabilised? Straight to Ballinasloe for ,perhaps, more indept treatment? Or just continue to Merlin Park for an orthopaedic consultant?

What about a deep non arterial laceration to an arm? Stitches in Roscommon first? Or just straight to Ballinasloe for a surigal consultation? Or just drive to St. James' for a neuro surgeon review?

This is what I'm talking about when common accidents occur in Roscommon. Nobody knows what the Urgent care centre will accomadate so therefore people automatically drive by it and continue to more acute hospitals. This is giving a false reading of the need for an accident and emergency in Roscommon. I'm not so insular that I think a fully functioning A+E is needed in Roscommon but don't neccessarily believe statistics either.

This poor girl died tragically. Perhaps Roscommon could have stabilised her for the journey to Galway, perhaps not. We'll never know.

UDP

Rasheed wrote: »

Ah cod really? What about a child that has fallen and query broken his arm? Roscommon to be stabilised? Straight to Ballinasloe for ,perhaps, more indept treatment? Or just continue to Merlin Park for an orthopaedic consultant?

What about a deep non arterial laceration to an arm? Stitches in Roscommon first? Or just straight to Ballinasloe for a surigal consultation? Or just drive to St. James' for a neuro surgeon review?

This is what I'm talking about when common accidents occur in Roscommon. Nobody knows what the Urgent care centre will accomadate so therefore people automatically drive by it and continue to more acute hospitals. This is giving a false reading of the need for an accident and emergency in Roscommon. I'm not so insular that I think a fully functioning A+E is needed in Roscommon but don't neccessarily believe statistics either.

This poor girl died tragically. Perhaps Roscommon could have stabilised her for the journey to Galway, perhaps not. We'll never know.

The population densities around the country have dramatically changed over the last 10 years or so. As a result it makes sense to move (open/close) services in different locations as a result so as to provide the best coverage to as many people as possible. You are making the case for a hospital in every community. Why should Roscommon have an A&E and not other communities? What if they need to be stabilised before being sent on further to a more specialised hospital?

Just because a hospital had x service doesn't mean it should always have that service if it makes sense from a national plan to move it elsewhere. Those that were close to the A&E will suffer as a result but no more than those that were always far from the A&E - what makes those that were close to the A&E more entitled to remain close?

EMTFlynn

What i would like to know is was there an Advanced Paramedic at the scene in a rapid response vehicle? They are trained to give more advanced life support.

People can blame cuts etc but at the end of the day it's down to the Ambulance crew to make the right call, they were aware of how serious her injuries were and for not knowing directions is a disgrace surely in there training they would have being giving a possible scenario like this and what to do etc

Absolute joke.

Rasheed

UDP wrote: »

The population densities around the country have dramatically changed over the last 10 years or so. As a result it makes sense to move (open/close) services in different locations as a result so as to provide the best coverage to as many people as possible. You are making the case for a hospital in every community. Why should Roscommon have an A&E and not other communities? What if they need to be stabilised before being sent on further to a more specialised hospital?

Just because a hospital had x service doesn't mean it should always have that service if it makes sense from a national plan to move it elsewhere. Those that were close to the A&E will suffer as a result but no more than those that were always far from the A&E - what makes those that were close to the A&E more entitled to remain close?

I stated that I was not so insular to believe that it was viable to have a fully functioning A+E in Roscommon. I understand why it may have been more cost productive to close it. But the urgent care centre is far from cost effective either. The serviced was not moved, it was closed. The staff/monies that ran Roscommon didn't move to Ballinasloe/Sligo. Ballinasloe was just heaped with another half a county to give care to, if needed and Sligo the other half. Roscommon town is, at best 40 minutes away from acute care. Take into account calling an ambulance, one being free, getting to your house, there is your golden hour gone. Then continue to a full to capacity A+E and hope they can take you without being bounced. Advanced paramedics are no subsitute for doctors but there aren't even enough of them.

BluntGuy

EMTFlynn wrote: »

What i would like to know is was there an Advanced Paramedic at the scene in a rapid response vehicle? They are trained to give more advanced life support.

People can blame cuts etc but at the end of the day it's down to the Ambulance crew to make the right call, they were aware of how serious her injuries were and for not knowing directions is a disgrace surely in there training they would have being giving a possible scenario like this and what to do etc

Absolute joke.

As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, by a paramedic, no less, it is unreasonable to expect ambulance drivers to know the exact directions to absolutely everywhere. It's tragic but if you elect to live in the arse end of nowhere then you knowingly expose yourself to that risk.

Not that it would've made a difference in this case.

Connrang

Morning,
Funny how the Air Ambulance that was stationed in the Barracks in Athlone and was written off in an accident was replaced a few days after this incident.
I know some of the Paramedics, one who knew the case told me nothing could have saved this poor woman, even a full surgical team on site. He also told me they are not allowed to use Roscommon Hospital for A&E. They (Medics) are not happy with the situation, but its their jobs on the line if they dont carry out orders.
The new Air Ambulance is a much bigger one, 139, with an Air Corp medic and an HSE medic.
But I'm sure all the politicians will have the same replies, " terrible accident etc, but matter for HSE "...Dail closed, let the newspapers debate it until September.
Things are not going to get any better, anytime soon.

Procrastastudy

No disrespect to Ireland but once you get out side if Dublin it's nowt but bumps an holes in the ground for bloody miles - how on earth are there not more air ambulances?

Okay I suppose there is Cork...

What the bloody hell do the PDF use there helicopters for surely a bit of dual purposing could go one here?

Victor

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

What the bloody hell do the PDF use there helicopters for surely a bit of dual purposing could go one here?

8 helicopters, 2 small (primarily used for pilot training and air ambulance), 6 medium (mainly used for army training). It was one of the smaller ones that was damaged, leaving only one aircraft for pilot training.

http://www.military.ie/en/air-corps/fleet/ec135-p2
http://www.military.ie/air-corps/fleet/aw139

Procrastastudy

Thats a shockingly small number of helicopters for a country as spread out as this. I really had no idea I would have thought there was at least two / three available for Dublin and a few around the place.

Well you've just made me a slightly more careful person!

Donnielighto

Felexicon wrote: »

Why don't you do a collection to raise €30,000 for the girls parents and see if they agree that that is all thier daughters life was worth

I didnt come up with that number. You dont understand the point I was making. We can't put everything in place to keep tragedies from happening because the cost would not be bearable.