Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

LuckyLloyd

mormank wrote: »

Well, I think system of no system if that is the case after 15 matches the players will need to take a long hard look at themselves. It's all well and good laying the blame firmly at the manager's doorstep but we have a group of players that is more than capable of 'smashing' through the 16 point barrier long before the 15 game mark of the season. For example imo Luis Suarez has a alot to answer for yesterday as his finishing was pretty woeful to say the least. The manager can only prepare the players, it is up to them to perform on the day and I fear if we are only on 16 points or less after 15 games that it will be down to the players under performing more than any perceived problems with BR's famed system or whatnot.

That's fine, and you can genuinely believe that, but you probably know as well as I do that you can't change an entire squad, but you can dump a manager. The media WILL be laying the blame at the manager's doorstep if the above (not entirely outlandish) scenario comes to pass and there WILL be an awful lot of chin wagging about how effective his system is - either in design or implementation.

Personally speaking, if you genuinely believe in a manager for the long haul then I think you should staunchly defend them in a '16 points from 15 league games' scenario. That is how hard it may become though.

whatawaster

Alan Hansen's view on yesterday's match - "Liverpool could have used some height in the box."

Top level analysis

LuckyLloyd

whatawaster wrote: »

A lot of what-if's in there, to be fair.

Yesterday we had a good 45 minutes, a goal against us we could do nothing about and then a second-half capitulation after 2 penalties and a red card went against us.

Not an ideal start, but I saw enough in 45 minutes to suggest there is a cohesion to our play even at this early stage.

It's hard to look that far ahead and imagine relegation form after almost half the season. That would be to over-react to yesterday

The above wouldn't be relegation form.

Leiva

Yesterday was just a continuation of the tail end of last season which is worrying with new additions and all.

Just like last season I would like to see Gerrard dropped and see if that loosings up things.But I doubt Rodgers would do that yet .

If this form continues and Rodgers doesn't get the uplift from the players he deserves then things could get sour pretty quick.

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The above wouldn't be relegation form.

yeah and I don't see any reason to fear we will be down that end of the table halfway through the season.

Kess73

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What is a reasonable squeal point for people though?

2pts after five games okay, we're just getting going.

Norwich (a)
Stoke (h)
Reading (h)
Everton (a)
Newcastle (h)
Chelsea (a)

What if it's 10 points after 11 games?

Wigan (h)
Swansea (a)
Spurs (a)
Southampton (h)

16 after 15 games and into December?

There is a lot of idle talk of 'give the man time' but people probably aren't working out the scenarios in their head properly.

If the above comes to pass the general media pressure and attention will be suffocating, make no mistake about it. If you want to give him time, practising what you preach will be very hard in a scenario along the lines of the above. You need to be prepared for it, and steel yourself for it.

Giving the man time means giving him longer than the portion of the first half that some took to start complaining yesterday. At 0-0 some people were seemed to be giving up on the team.


If, and it is a pretty massive if to be fair, the team is looking at roughly a point a game coming into the Xmas period, then of course some very serious questions would have to be asked as to why, and the manager and the players would have to be looked at for reasons why.


Personally I don't think that we will be looking at a point a game scenario after 11 games let alone coming into the Xmas period, but right now we only have one very bad result to go on. Just one game and that is simply not enough to go on. The club is on the back of three seasons as pretty much a midtable team (albeit as one of the higher finishers of the midtable cluster, but midtable nonetheless) so in the absence of some crazy spending people should not really be surprised to see the team starting the season still as one of those midtable teams and getting the kind of big defeat that is not uncommon at that level. The challenge this season, imho of course, is to try and shake the club out of it's midtable comfort zone or at least be making genuine and quantifiable progress on that front by the time the season ends.

I said yesterday that this season will most likely be a steep learning curve for the team and also prove likewise for the support and I see no reason to think otherwise. It is going to be a rough ride at times, and there are going to be days were everyone will be critical of the manager, of one player or another, but other than a massive collapse over a sustained period, we are going to have to take a lot oon the chin this season. To think otherwise would be folly.

mormank

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That's fine, and you can genuinely believe that, but you probably know as well as I do that you can't change an entire squad, but you can dump a manager. The media WILL be laying the blame at the manager's doorstep if the above (not entirely outlandish) scenario comes to pass and there WILL be an awful lot of chin wagging about how effective his system is - either in design or implementation.

Personally speaking, if you genuinely believe in a manager for the long haul then I think you should staunchly defend them in a '16 points from 15 league games' scenario. That is how hard it may become though.

Agreed. Just like the media latched onto rafa's zonal marking and constantly used it against him, like man marking is perfect :rolleyes:

I agree about what the media will be saying but f&&k them. It's what the people within the club thinks that matters. Fact remains that only 2 of the players on show were BR players. Most were a mish mash of players signed by 3 previous Liverpool managers. First time in our history I'd say.

I know how vocal you in paticular have been against Rodger's appointment etc but you must agree that this constant turnover of managers is part of the problem and BR being sacked is not/will not be the answer.

whatawaster

Leiva wrote: »

If this form continues and Rodgers doesn't get the uplift from the players he deserves then things could get sour pretty quick.

This form? Honestly.

We played well in the first half, some real good interplay between the midfield and forwards. They scored a goal from nothing. We started the second half in control. They get a penalty. We get a red card. They get another penalty. The players lose control of the game.

Very little went right for us yesterday, but it's premature to predict things could go quickly sour.

DARK-KNIGHT

Can none of you see expectation from "fans is holding. Lfc back tbh"

Instead of all the same comments year in year out like this our year etc support manager and get behind team if a manager was given long enough to work with club you might be in a stronger position!!!

But remember this is a very average team that Rodgers is working with!!

LuckyLloyd

whatawaster wrote: »

yeah and I don't see any reason to fear we will be down that end of the table halfway through the season.

Kess73 wrote: »

Personally I don't think that we will be looking at a point a game scenario after 11 games let alone coming into the Xmas period, but right now we only have one very bad result to go on

Okay, I seem to have found a scenario below your squeal points!

Give me a squeal point for you both in hard numbers?

mike65

Kess do not fall for this pernicious line of thinking!

mormank

Does anyone else think that Agger's red card yesterday makes him more likely to stay or is it just me??

LuckyLloyd

mormank wrote: »

I know how vocal you in paticular have been against Rodger's appointment etc but you must agree that this constant turnover of managers is part of the problem and BR being sacked is not/will not be the answer.

I know that constant turnover is not the solution, that is precisely WHY I was against Dalglish being sacked and Rodgers appointed.

whatawaster wrote: »

This form? Honestly.

Very little went right for us yesterday, but it's premature to predict things could go quickly sour.

While the home games against Leverkusen and Gomel were positive, the away game against Gomel was not at all in terms of performance. It's two away competitive performances now, and while there were different sort of positives in both (win despite being rubbish in one, some good possession despite awful result in two) overall they amount to a very disappointing start.

jaykay74

mormank wrote: »

Does anyone else think that Agger's red card yesterday makes him more likely to stay or is it just me??

Think its only a 1 match ban since not violent conduct so not sure what difference it would make to leaving or not.

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Okay, I seem to have found a scenario below your squeal points!

Give me a squeal point for you both in hard numbers?

I expect us to break the 60 point barrier this season and finish in the top 6.

I find it hard to put exact numbers on what would be acceptable after X number of games. I would be disappointed and surprised if we had not picked up at least 3 wins prior to the Everton derby. 4 wins from our next 7 is my hope (Stoke (h), Norwich (a), Reading (h) and one from United, City, Arsenal and Sunderland).

LuckyLloyd

mormank wrote: »

Does anyone else think that Agger's red card yesterday makes him more likely to stay or is it just me??

It's irrelevant either way I think.

Gbear

NukaCola wrote: »

I know very little about Borini to be honest. I dont think Suarez is clinical enough for us. Tevez and Aguero are excellent........Suarez and Borini? No idea but to me they are well off Aguero and Tevez standard.

Borini? Doesn't even enter into the debate.

Suarez does an awful lot that only the likes of Messi or Iniesta can come up with - real virtuoso type stuff. But he has the finishing of a 7 year old blind boy with parkinsons and that puts him wayyyyy off in practical terms.
If he were more clinical he'd be right up there with the top 5 strikers in the world.

mormank

jaykay74 wrote: »

Think its only a 1 match ban since not violent conduct so not sure what difference it would make to leaving or not.

Well i dunno, twas just the first thing that went through my head when he was sent off. Would most likely be his last action in a Liverpool jersey.

djPSB

I think he will stay.

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

While the home games against Leverkusen and Gomel were positive, the away game against Gomel was not at all in terms of performance. It's two away competitive performances now, and while there were different sort of positives in both (win despite being rubbish in one, some good possession despite awful result in two) overall they amount to a very disappointing start.

The away game at Gomel was essentially a pre-season friendly though. About half our team hadn't played or hadn't played more than 45 minutes of friendlies.

I find it difficult to draw any conclusions from yesterday. The sending off and the two penalties changed the match.

I did see enough to suggest: 1) we might be better equipped to control matches away from home than we have been in recent years, 2) we desperately need one more quality attacking player.

jaykay74

mormank wrote: »

Well i dunno, twas just the first thing that went through my head when he was sent off. Would most likely be his last action in a Liverpool jersey.

I think he made it clear himself he wants to stay. I think city will drop their interest.

Devilman40k

Not just a quality attacking player but a goal poacher.

LuckyLloyd

whatawaster wrote: »

The away game at Gomel was essentially a pre-season friendly though. About half our team hadn't played or hadn't played more than 45 minutes of friendlies.

I find it difficult to draw any conclusions from yesterday. The sending off and the two penalties changed the match.

I did see enough to suggest: 1) we might be better equipped to control matches away from home than we have been in recent years, 2) we desperately need one more quality attacking player.

Dempsey isn't the answer on the basis of yesterday. We need a clinical out and out striker.

Of course, we needed many things coming into the window that we haven't got to date.

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Dempsey isn't the answer on the basis of yesterday. We need a clinical out and out striker.

Of course, we needed many things coming into the window that we haven't got to date.

I'd definitely go for Adebayor on loan if possible.

We aren't getting another striker in permanently without selling Carroll imo.

If we are to make just one more signing it has to be a guy that pushes Downing onto the bench and Joe Cole into the stands.

G.K.

It's mighty confusing how Suarez struggles to finish at 'Pool. I don't recall him having trouble with Ajax or Uruguay, so it's very odd.

jaykay74

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Dempsey isn't the answer on the basis of yesterday. We need a clinical out and out striker.

Of course, we needed many things coming into the window that we haven't got to date.

I know you mean as a striker as a starter but what about Owen as a shot to nothing as an off the bench 20 min man. no transfer fee, low enough wage I would imagine, pay as you play so injury means no loss.

I know he burned his bridges with a lot of people with the move (move the action than any words I think) so its probably not palpable and he probably not up to the standard now anyway maybe

Just mean as a 4th/5th choice option.

I think I answered my own question though, NO.

mormank

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I know that constant turnover is not the solution, that is precisely WHY I was against Dalglish being sacked and Rodgers appointed.



While the home games against Leverkusen and Gomel were positive, the away game against Gomel was not at all in terms of performance. It's two away competitive performances now, and while there were different sort of positives in both (win despite being rubbish in one, some good possession despite awful result in two) overall they amount to a very disappointing start.

Ok well I guess that's where our opinions differ slightly. I just don't feel that Dalglish ever truly represented the future of this club during his second stint. I believe he was an excellent interim manager, especially at that time in the club's history. However he was not the solution long term. His sacking was neccesary as was Hodgson's( I hate the put those two in the same sentence fwiw ) at the time imo.

Now we have a young, presumably hungry manager with a firm belief on how the game should be played. He is trying to implement his ideas on a squad of players he did not put together. This will of course take time. I can only deduce that yesterday's result was an anomaly, given the precision of Gera's goal (we can only assume that players from mid table clubs won't be scoring screamers on us every game) and the harshness of the first penalty and sending off and the harshness of the second penalty. I believe any team in the PL would struggle under those circumstances. Remember we only fell to pieces after all these things happened. Also we have to assume Suarez will score normally when presented with so many chances/half chances.

If by Xmas or even the end of the season we discover that yesterday's result was in fact the rule and not the exception then maybe take a look at it. For now after one bad result after all that went on in that game I refuse to start panicing.

LuckyLloyd

jaykay74 wrote: »

I know you mean as a striker as a starter but what about Owen as a shot to nothing as an off the bench 20 min man. no transfer fee, low enough wage I would imagine, pay as you play so injury means no loss.

I know he burned his bridges with a lot of people with the move (move the action than any words I think) so its probably not palpable and he probably not up to the standard now anyway maybe

Just mean as a 4th/5th choice option.

I think I answered my own question though, NO.

I don't really think he's an option at this point tbh.

mormank

jaykay74 wrote: »

I know you mean as a striker as a starter but what about Owen as a shot to nothing as an off the bench 20 min man. no transfer fee, low enough wage I would imagine, pay as you play so injury means no loss.

I know he burned his bridges with a lot of people with the move (move the action than any words I think) so its probably not palpable and he probably not up to the standard now anyway maybe

Just mean as a 4th/5th choice option.

I think I answered my own question though, NO.

LOL!!!

Grayditch

whatawaster wrote: »

I'd definitely go for Adebayor on loan if possible.

As much as people say "I wouldn't have him at the club", and I can understand that, I sort of wouldn't be against that at all.

whatawaster

Grayditch wrote: »

As much as people say "I wouldn't have him at the club", and I can understand that, I sort of wouldn't be against that at all.

Yeah I don't think he's capable of more than one season at any club, so it would definitely just be a one-year thing.

Gbear

mormank wrote: »

(we can only assume that players from mid table clubs won't be scoring screamers on us every game)

It certainly feels like they do.

djPSB

If Suarez had scored the chances yesterday, we would be all in here singing Rodgers praises.

Leiva

Does anyone have a list of players that Rodgers inherited at Swansea and those he brought in ?

Mr Alan

djPSB wrote: »

If Suarez had scored the chances yesterday, we would be all in here singing Rodgers praises.

He had 2 chances?

We created **** all yesterday tbh.

Stop making stuff up like your point about the Spurs game last night

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

He had 2 chances?

We created **** all yesterday tbh.

Stop making stuff up like your point about the Spurs game last night

2 sitters in fairness.

Suarez, Johnson and Borini had half-chances as well in the first half.

djPSB

Mr Alan wrote: »

He had 2 chances?

We created **** all yesterday tbh.

He had 4 chances that you would expect a striker to score.

2 free headers, one chance where the ball broke from the keeper and he missed an open goal, and one chance were he beat the defence and hit straight at the keeper along with 3 other reasonable chances.

mormank

Gbear wrote: »

It certainly feels like they do.

I know it does. I'm almost positive that there was a season recently where half the goal of the season nominees were against us!! I could have juts dreamt that tho...

That_Guy

Mr Alan wrote: »

He had 2 chances?

We created **** all yesterday tbh.

Stop making stuff up like your point about the Spurs game last night

I'm only judging by MOTD but it looked like he had 3 or 4 decent scoring chances. Should've tucked away 2. Some of the crossing was quite decent at times. Crying out for a Carroll head on the end of it.

LuckyLloyd

djPSB wrote: »

If Suarez had scored the chances yesterday, we would be all in here singing Rodgers praises.

The same could be said for numerous matches under Benitez and Dalglish and you know this too. Their praises weren't sung in such situations so don't expect anything to change now...

mormank

Mr Alan wrote: »

He had 2 chances?

We created **** all yesterday tbh.

Stop making stuff up like your point about the Spurs game last night

Suarez could have easily had a hattrick before we even conceded!

Gbear

mormank wrote: »

I know it does. I'm almost positive that there was a season recently where half the goal of the season nominees were against us!! I could have juts dreamt that tho...

I think the main problem is that we've stopped scoring from outside the box. Gerrard in particular. I wonder has he lost a little bit of quickness required to get a decent shot away before he's closed down.

So it just seems like people score a disproportionately high number of screamers against us because we score a disproportionately low number of them.

Mr Alan

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The same could be said for numerous matches under Benitez and Dalglish and you know this too. Their praises weren't sung in such situations so don't expect anything to change now...

This is the point I'm getting at.

I think Suarez had 2 good chances yesterday, couple of other chances but reading here you'd swear he should have scored 5 goals if he was any way decent

To be honest, I've no idea why we aren't going with.....


===Suarez=========Borini===
=========Carroll==========

Grayditch

whatawaster wrote: »

Yeah I don't think he's capable of more than one season at any club, so it would definitely just be a one-year thing.

When Spurs got him for a season, I was worried, and rightly so. He's a merc, but you do generally get what you pay for. Goals. Comes at a price more than high wages too, as I dunno if he'd be good for the team in other ways, but I do like goals. All the lovely goals.

mormank

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The same could be said for numerous matches under Benitez and Dalglish and you know this too. Their praises weren't sung in such situations so don't expect anything to change now...

Well to be fair if Suarez can't get his act together regarding finishing chances then it becomes a problem that the manager needs to address imo. Suarez is of course our most talented attacking player, however his finishing has not been up to scratch since we signed him imho and if this cannot be fixed this season then we will struggle and part of the blame should be apportioned to the manager.

Gbear

Grayditch wrote: »

When Spurs got him for a season, I was worried, and rightly so. He's a merc, but you do generally get what you pay for. Goals. Comes at a price more than high wages too, as I dunno if he'd be good for the team in other ways, but I do like goals. All the lovely goals.

He scored more than any of our players last season from considerably fewer games.
33 league games - 17 goals.

I hate the ****er but right now we need what he could give us.

LuckyLloyd

If Adeboyer was willing to come I'd be happy to have him.

mormank

Gbear wrote: »

I think the main problem is that we've stopped scoring from outside the box. Gerrard in particular. I wonder has he lost a little bit of quickness required to get a decent shot away before he's closed down.

So it just seems like people score a disproportionately high number of screamers against us because we score a disproportionately low number of them.

Hmmm...you're right, we have stopped/dramatically reduced our scoring outside the box in the past couple of seasons. #lifewithoutgerrard

One thing about Gerrard's slow fall from grace over the years is that it does highlight what a mammoth of a player he has been for us for over ten years now. Respect.

mike65

mormank wrote: »

Hmmm...you're right, we have stopped/dramatically reduced our scoring outside the box in the past couple of seasons. #lifewithoutgerrard

One thing about Gerrard's slow fall from grace over the years is that it does highlight what a mammoth of a player he has been for us for over ten years now. Respect.

The one thing Gerrards decline has highlighted is the utter failure to move beyond him as first choice player/game rescuer. His relative decline has been evident for 3 years at least but has the club ever sought to line up a genuine replacement?

#nohashtagsplease

djPSB

Just a little comparison against the Swansea system from last year.

Lucas v Britton
Britton had a pass completion rate of 93.5% last season and made 1.7 tackles per game.

Lucas had a pass completion of 92.6% and made 2 tackles.

I think Rodgers will be happy enough with him, even though I don't think he was anywhere near his best.

Gerrard v Sigurdsson
Sigurdsson had an 84.5% pass completion for the Swans last season. Gerrard had a 82.1% completion ratio yesterday which isn't good enough. Yesterday was an off day though and I would expect him to improve.

However Gerrard was on the ball alot more making 56 passes, while Sigurdsson only averaged 37.2 passes per game last season.

Borini v Sinclair
Now it's from here up that our problems arise. Borini didn't play to his best yesterday. Our wingers are expected to beat their men and create chances. Sinclair averaged 1.7 dribbles per game last season, Borini according to the stats didn't beat his man once yesterday,

Downing v Dyer
Downing is yet to get a goal or an assist in the league which is not a stat you would expect from a £20m player. According to the stats, he didn't dribble past his man once yesterday, while Dyer averaged 2 per game last season.

Suarez v Graham
This was a catastrophic area for us yesterday, an area in which I think cost us the game. Suarez had 8 shots yesterday, and didn't score. He was very wasteful in front of goal, an area which requires improvement.

Graham averaged 2 shots per game last season but he was clinical, the complete opposite to Suarez.

To be fair Suarez offers things to the game that Graham could only dream off, but putting the ball in the net is vital which is something I am not sure we can rely on Luis to deliver.