Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

BorneTobyWilde

Are Spurs in for Carroll?
Rumor that they are,

Turtyturd

Fenix wrote: »

He seen the foul, played advantage, Wigan took thier opertunity, long missed a sitter. Advantage was played, not the referees fault long missed it. Had he have scored it wouldn't have been a penalty.

As someone said on goals on Sunday, it was 2 bites of the same cherry.

It was hardly a sitter, he was lying on the ground. The ref is supposed to allow play to run on and determine if the player will gain an advantage from it, he fell and swung at the ball on the ground and it went wide so gained no advantage, if it went in he would have. It was the right decision.

BorneTobyWilde

J. Marston wrote: »

Probably because it made for car crash television.

I know, its what i meant, The looked at every word, every quote,And picked the bones out of them
But Rodgers yesterday said things i would not expect to hear from a liverpool manager,
Expect to lose!!!!!

Would Ferguson say that if on bad run, NO

8-10

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Excuse my dimness but what does "clutch" mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutch_(sports)

A "clutch" athlete is one who performs well in pivotal or high pressure situations. This includes many instances where a good performance means the difference between a win and a loss. Being on many championship teams (preferably with different franchises, or in different seasons with different teammates) seems to help a player's reputation for being clutch, but it is no guarantee in and of itself. Seizing upon one's opportunities in pressure situations is the common thread among all "clutch" players, though, as a player's poor past performance will be forgotten if he/she can make one big play under pressure.

Not really used in soccer too much, but it's definitely applicable and there's no other word that really grasps the concept of being clutch.

Didier Drogba in recent years would be a prime example of a clutch soccer player, based on his cup final heroics. Gerrard v Olympiakos, West Ham etc would be another. My point was that Gerrard seems to have lost it, Torres and Kuyt are gone, and Liverpool currently lack exactly that innate quality in a player(s)

LuckyLloyd

Between 2003 and 2009 Gerrard was insanely clutch.

jenno86

Clutch is an annoying word used in American sports mainly.

mormank

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think that's the line of attack actually - he can then label us "deluded" for turning our noses up at Owen. AWESOME.

I'd imagine I would actualy take Fowler back again before Owen. Hate the tag 'deluded' as I used to be a 'deluded' Liverpool fan, but then i turned 13. I think I was about that age when I finally 'got it'. And just like when I finally 'got' poker, I've never enjoyed the game as much since....Oh I long to be deluded again...

BorneTobyWilde

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Between 2003 and 2009 Gerrard was insanely clutch.

Clutch is slipping now though, hard to get into gear,

Phoenix Park

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Clutch is slipping now though, hard to get into gear,

There's a rubbish Lucas Oil pun in there somewhere dying to get out..

Captain Morgan Freeman

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Clutch is slipping now though, hard to get into gear,

Great we lost our engine(Kuyt) and now the clutch is ****ed! No wonder the owners don't want to spend any more money on us!

BorneTobyWilde

I think we should bid for the Turkish Gerrard,
As this Sahin deal looks dead,

Sappy404

@SiClancy

Looks like Sahin is off to Arsenal.

Someone get rid of them tags!

Update:

@SiClancy

BBC Sport's David Ornstein: Arsenal are close to signing of Real Madrid's Nuri Sahin on a season-long basis with a view to a permanent move

@SiClancy

FWIW, David Ornstein broke the RVP to Manchester United story, so it has some serious weight.

osnola ibax

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Kenny would never say, We are going to lose more games like this
Roy said that though,
Now Rodgers!

FFS you don't say these things, As soon as we are 1-0 down players remember ''ahh its ok, just another bad day la de da ''

People hung on Kennys every word last season,
And he may of not been realistic ,But he would never say we are going to lose many more games
He would always say , we are going to go out to win every game we play,

I don't like Rodgers saying the opposite,

I agree with you 100%, maybe I need to readjust my expectations, but since when do Liverpool FC expect to lose games against the likes of WBA. Even games against the top six we expect to win and have done a lot, even though we haven't won the premiership.

We have become a mid table team if this is the attitude. We are going to become a sleeping giant. I fear the worse, we just don't have the players or the money to invest. We have a bunch of misfits in the squad, Downing, Cole, Adam, and Gerrard and Carragher are looking too long in the tooth.

I hope I am wrong.

Turtyturd

osnola ivax wrote: »

I agree with you 100%, maybe I need to readjust my expectations, but since when do Liverpool FC expect to lose games against the likes of WBA.

At least a year, I remember after the draw against Sunderland last year someone saying we had no right to beat teams like Sunderland.

Luckycharms_74

After reflecting on yesterdays match we all as Liverpool fans need a reality check. This is a work in progress. We just gotta give Rogers time and try to embrace the changes he is making.

The squad is not better than the top 4 and you could also say that spurs and Newcastle have a better squad also.
The one thing from yesterday game is that we are crying out for an out and out goalscorer. I love Suarez and think he is a genius but he is not a natural/instinctive striker. He is a scorer of great goals but not a great goalscorer. I know we harp on about if we still had Torres. He is gone and that's water under the bridge, but we really need a player of that like going forward. It's just that because of our situation we can not attract the top level talent compared to the BIG BOYS.

I think we will stay between 5th-8th for the next couple of seasons .
If and when we break in to the top 4 then we can hopefully get the top tier footballers that this club deserves and needs.

cson

Turtyturd wrote: »

At least a year, I remember after the draw against Sunderland last year someone saying we had no right to beat teams like Sunderland.

There are tough away games depending on the time of year they're played imo - Sunderland away, Stoke away, WBA away are not an easy 3 points and I'd imagine if you clocked how many points the top 6 have taken from those places over the past 2 years it would be far from a clean sweep. It's a cliché but any of those games in the depths of Nov/Dec/Jan are very tough, a lot of players don't want to be there.

Kess73

osnola ivax wrote: »

I agree with you 100%, maybe I need to readjust my expectations, but since when do Liverpool FC expect to lose games against the likes of WBA. Even games against the top six we expect to win and have done a lot, even though we haven't won the premiership.

We have become a mid table team if this is the attitude. We are going to become a sleeping giant. I fear the worse, we just don't have the players or the money to invest. We have a bunch of misfits in the squad, Downing, Cole, Adam, and Gerrard and Carragher are looking too long in the tooth.

I hope I am wrong.

We are already a sleeping giant much as I dislike that term, and the last three seasons have shown us to be midtable quality. Some folk might like to try and call us a top six, top seven, or top eight team to try and avoid the midtable tag, but that's where we are as a club now.

Totally agree about the misfit comment as well.

Gerrard and Carragher were great servents on the pitch, but both are well past their prime at this stage. There are other players at the club who come with big reputations (mainly due to some of them being English) would are not worth a damn for any team that wants more than just midtable status or that wants to play anything other than pretty basic football.


The scale of the rebuilding job needed just seemed to grow year on year for the past three seasons, and was not helped by the "buy to sell" mentality during Rafa's final years.

Kimbot

Also I feel with Suarez not been an out and out goal scorer he should play the left of the front 3, pulling players out wide to give boroni/Carroll space in the middle.

cson

osnola ivax wrote: »

I fear the worse, we just don't have the players or the money to invest.

You don't need huge money; I know its oft trotted out but Newcastle have bought Cisse, Cabaye, Santon, Ben Arfa and Tiote for absolutely f-all compared to what the going rate is for players these days. Its not a stretch to say every one of them would be a starter if they were wearing Liverpool shirts.

jesus_thats_gre

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Here's a mad idea - how about just playing Carroll?

Woah!

Turtyturd

cson wrote: »

There are tough away games depending on the time of year they're played imo - Sunderland away, Stoke away, WBA away are not an easy 3 points and I'd imagine if you clocked how many points the top 6 have taken from those places over the past 2 years it would be far from a clean sweep. It's a cliché but any of those games in the depths of Nov/Dec/Jan are very tough, a lot of players don't want to be there.

Maybe so, but I think fans of any team would see trips to Sunderland or West Brom as a chance to pick up points, and a lot of teams as a chance to pick up a win.

cson

Turtyturd wrote: »

Maybe so, but I think fans of any team would see trips to Sunderland or West Brom as a chance to pick up points, and a lot of teams as a chance to pick up a win.

I meant to say at the end there, notwithstanding you should really be getting a result at the Hawthorns at the beginning of the season in good weather/pitch at its best etc.

Chucky the tree

Huge blow to lose out on Sahin.

Leiva

Seen that Sahin is more or less going to Arsenal now with a view to buy how has the transfer window been for you ?


Great
Good
OK'ish
Disappointing
Crap
Disaster

whatawaster

Leiva wrote: »

Seen that Sahin is more or less going to Arsenal now with a view to buy how has the transfer window been for you ?


Great
Good
OK'ish
Disappointing
Crap
Disaster

Ongoing

cson

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Huge blow to lose out on Sahin.

I'm glad we [seem] to have nicked him off you with Song going. It was always going to be a double blow for whoever got him considering we were the only 2 clubs in for him - you miss out the other team becomes stronger and your chances of CL reduce accordingly.

Luckycharms_74

opr wrote: »

His chance conversion rate has always been terrible.

http://tomkinstimes.com/2012/03/luis-suarez-9-or-10/

Opr

Interesting article for sure

Luis Suarez: 9 or 10?

This season, Liverpool have not won enough games because they have not scored enough goals. What started out as “one of those days” (Stoke away, 24 shots, 3 clear chances, 0 points), became a blip (Norwich home, 29 shots, 2 clear chances, 1 point), became a season-long malaise. By the time we played Blackburn at Anfield (27 shots, 5 clear chances, 1 point), there was little more than a resigned shrug from Liverpool fans.

Since the New Year there is no longer a debate about this Liverpool team. It doesn’t score enough goals and convert enough clear chances to take that step up to the Champions League places. The debate is now firmly focused on how to solve this. Fundamental to this debate is in which position and which system do you play your best player, Luis Suarez?

Do you play him as the central striker in a variation of 4-5-1 or do you play him with a partner in a variation of 4-4-1-1? Essentially do you play him as a “number 9” or a “number 10”? Or to put it another way, is he a great goal-scorer or a scorer of great goals?

So far, the debate has focused mainly on tactical opinion and the high-level evidence that he scored lots of goals for Ajax (81 in 110 games). It should also be noted that his international scoring record for Uruguay is a not-too-shabby 26 in 52 games (for comparison, Alan Shearer was 30 in 63 for England).

So far, so unhelpful. As a result, the debate has focused on why is his Liverpool goalscoring record so much worse than Ajax and Uruguay. All kinds of weird and wonderful theories have been floated, from him not trusting the players around him, to being a scruffy dribbler, to being worn-down by off-pitch issues.

Suarez at Ajax

Now, thanks to the good people at Infostrada we are finally ready to provide the data that takes the debate to the next level. They’ve kindly provided Suarez’s goals, assists and shot on/off target data for each of his five seasons in the Netherlands (including Groningen). The results are emphatic.

Let’s start by looking at his headline goals & assists per minute:





His best season with Ajax (09/10) saw him scoring at more than a goal a game. For the rest of his time at Ajax he was scoring twice as quickly as he is at Liverpool. That’s normal because as we all know from the English media, “it’s easier to score goals in the Eredivisie than it is in the Premier League”.

Now let’s dig a bit deeper and look at the frequency and volume of shots required to score:




If we think Suarez has a lot of shots playing for Liverpool (between 4 and 5 every game) this is nothing compared to his time at Ajax where it was every 14 minutes over four seasons (over six per match). In his best season this peaked at a shot every 11 minutes (over eight per match).

Where it starts to get really interesting is how efficient Suarez is at converting shots to goals. His best season in the Eredivisie was his first at Ajax in 07/08 where he scored with almost 16% of his shots (6.4 shots per goal).

At Groningen and seasons two and three at Ajax the conversion rate was around 12% and 8 shots per goal. In his final season at Ajax (post World Cup) and then Liverpool the conversion rate has almost halved to 7% and the shots per goal has shot up to about 14. In terms of efficiency, the current season for Liverpool is the worst of Suarez’s career. But again, this is “normal” because “it’s easier to score goals in the Netherlands than it is in England”.

Comparison to Rooney and Van Persie

Liverpool aspire to be a Champions League club and it is widely accepted that Suarez possesses sufficient quality to make that aspiration realistic and become the key attacking player at a Champions League club. In this case, it’s reasonable to compare Suarez’s time in the Eredivisie to the key attacking players of English clubs who’ve already been in the Champions League this season and are likely to be next season: namely Wayne Rooney and Robin Van Persie.

Thanks to EPL Index (Wesbite: http://www.eplindex.com/), Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/EPLIndex) we can source the Opta data for the last four seasons.

First, let’s look at total goals and assists:




Here we can see very clearly that while Suarez at Ajax scored at a slightly better rate than Rooney or Van Persie, his rate at Liverpool after 33 full games is more than twice as bad.

With assists, Suarez at Ajax is significantly better than Van Persie but Suarez at Liverpool is again more than twice as bad (but this could be symptomatic of Liverpool’s wider inability to convert chances. Sadly we don’t have the chances created data at Ajax, only those chances that became assists)

Now dig deeper again and look at the frequency and volume of shots required to score:



This is the killer. Van Persie and Rooney both manage five shots per game in the Premier League over four seasons, compared to Suarez’s six at Ajax.

Yet, compared to Suarez at Ajax, Rooney needs one shot less to score a goal and Van Persie two less, all this in the supposedly “harder” Premier League.

If Suarez was a great goalscorer in the “easier” Eredivisie then over four seasons you would expect to see his numbers significantly better.

Once at Liverpool, Suarez has a shot at an almost identical frequency to Rooney yet he needs twice as many shots to score one goal.

In a nutshell, this boils down to Suarez and Rooney playing three Premier League games. In these three games they will both have 15 shots. However Rooney will score two goals in the three games and Suarez only one. Over a Premier League season this is roughly the equivalent of Rooney scoring 25 goals and Suarez 13 goals.

[PT: Of course, Suarez is just one year into his time in English football, whereas Rooney has been at Manchester United for eight seasons now, improving gradually over that time; before 2010, he'd only scored more than 14 league goals in a season once, and averaged a hardly-prolific 13 over his first five seasons. Equally, van Persie has recently gone from, at best, a goal every other game, to roughly a goal a game in the past year or so. Both players are older than Suarez.]

Penalties

A quick mention on penalties. During his time at Ajax, Suarez scored 18 penalties. Since 08/09 Rooney has scored 15 and Van Persie seven.

Without the actual details on penalties taken/scored, the approximate conversion rates excluding penalties are:



Now penalties have been excluded, Van Persie’s “shots per goal” is more than three fewer than Suarez at Ajax!

[PT: As roughly 70% of penalties are scored, if Suarez had taken all of Liverpool's penalties since arriving, and scored them at the average rate, he'd have more goals and a higher conversion rate from chances – as a penalty increases the chances of scoring from the 'normal' shot conversion rate of 5-15% to 70%. The problem is, he's taken one in the league, and one in the cup, and missed both.]

Conclusions

The analysis of Suarez’s Eredivisie data is fairly emphatic. We can draw three firm conclusions:

Suarez is not yet an efficient goalscorer or a clinical finisher
It is only Suarez’s volume of shots that enable his goalscoring record to look impressive
Luis Suarez is a roaming, attacking number 10, not a goalscoring number 9.
At face value, Suarez appears to be a great goalscorer but this is probably not the case. The reality is that he is a forward who is heavily involved in his team’s attacking play but who is fundamentally wasteful.

So what does this mean for Liverpool going forward? Quite simply, that if the plan is to continue to rely on Suarez to be the primary goalscorer in the team then it will in all likelihood fail. Suarez will not be scoring enough goals for Liverpool to win enough games. Therefore the plan must be how to best utilise Suarez as a roaming 10 in a system where the primary goalscoring responsibility can be borne by others.

Looking back to his time in the Netherlands this seems obvious, as he spent most of his time not playing centre forward:

At Groningen he played mainly with Erik Nevland as one of two central strikers;
In his first season at Ajax Klaas Jan Huntelaar was CF;
In 2008/09, Huntelaar started as CF, Suarez played some games himself there and later Dario Cvitanich was CF;
In his most prolific season Suarez began at CF. Cvitanich or Pantelic played most matches at CF thereafter;
In his final season, Mounir el Hamdaoui was CF.

BorneTobyWilde

Ok Big problem
If we are a mid table team, The why do we play like fricking champions
While Newcastle & Spurs first and foremost are hard to beat,
Before they play any football, Before they score any goal,
They are solid,

We on other hand think we are Barcelona
Pushing forward away from home, Teams hit us on the break
''away from home''
Something wrong with that picture,

Its what led to our downfall yesterday,

I know what Rafa would do,
Solid for first 30 mins,
Get control of game,
Gradually create chances
Torres winner 75th min

klose

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Ok Big problem
If we are a mid table team, The why do we play like fricking champions
While Newcastle & Spurs first and foremost are hard to beat,
Before they play any football, Before they score any goal,
They are solid,

We on other hand think we are Barcelona
Pushing forward away from home, Teams hit us on the break
''away from home''
Something wrong with that picture,

Its what led to our downfall yesterday,

I know what Rafa would do,
Solid for first 30 mins,
Get control of game,
Gradually create chances
Torres winner 75th min

That's a nice poem!

Leiva

whatawaster wrote: »

Ongoing

Fair point but you got to admit its getting tight now .

If the window closes and we have the same squad I would be bitterly disappointed .

BorneTobyWilde

Ok Sahin gone

Time for the Turkish Gerrard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBNer0W0xuY

djPSB

£20m for Dzeko would solve our problems.

Or Adebayor on loan.

Sappy404

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Huge blow to lose out on Sahin.

Huge blow for Arsenal to get him, too. Rumours are they have a cut-price option to buy as well. What an awful weekend.

Turtyturd

djPSB wrote: »

£20m for Dzeko would solve our problems.

Or Adebayor on loan.

That would be nice but it would result in Dzeko plus a few million for Agger.

Chucky the tree

Leiva wrote: »

Fair point but you got to admit its getting tight now .

If the window closes and we have the same squad I would be bitterly disappointed .

We've improved our first 11 and subsequently our bench and kept all of our major players. That's the first time in a long time I can say that about a transfer window.

osnola ibax

Kess73 wrote: »

We are already a sleeping giant much as I dislike that term, and the last three seasons have shown us to be midtable quality. Some folk might like to try and call us a top six, top seven, or top eight team to try and avoid the midtable tag, but that's where we are as a club now.

Totally agree about the misfit comment as well.

Gerrard and Carragher were great servents on the pitch, but both are well past their prime at this stage. There are other players at the club who come with big reputations (mainly due to some of them being English) would are not worth a damn for any team that wants more than just midtable status or that wants to play anything other than pretty basic football.


The scale of the rebuilding job needed just seemed to grow year on year for the past three seasons, and was not helped by the "buy to sell" mentality during Rafa's final years.

I'm actually delighted with these responses because it IS a massive reality check for me.

You were always right about Hazard by the way, its a pity we can't attract players like that. He had a good game today, genius for the first goal, opened the whole thing up with a turn.

stick-dan

See sky sports are reporting on TV that we lodged an enquiry today about adam johnson seeing as other interest has been reported.

Leiva

Surely that's bull that the option to buy Sahin is €8mil :eek:

Kess73

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Ok Big problem
If we are a mid table team, The why do we play like fricking champions
While Newcastle & Spurs first and foremost are hard to beat,
Before they play any football, Before they score any goal,
They are solid,

We on other hand think we are Barcelona
Pushing forward away from home, Teams hit us on the break
''away from home''
Something wrong with that picture,

Its what led to our downfall yesterday,

I know what Rafa would do,
Solid for first 30 mins,
Get control of game,
Gradually create chances
Torres winner 75th min

That reads like a Pushkin sonnet without a rhyming structure.:)

whatawaster

Kess73 wrote: »

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Ok Big problem
If we are a mid table team, The why do we play like fricking champions
While Newcastle & Spurs first and foremost are hard to beat,
Before they play any football, Before they score any goal,
They are solid,

We on other hand think we are Barcelona
Pushing forward away from home, Teams hit us on the break
''away from home''
Something wrong with that picture,

Its what led to our downfall yesterday,

I know what Rafa would do,
Solid for first 30 mins,
Get control of game,
Gradually create chances
Torres winner 75th min

That reads like a Pushkin sonnet without a rhyming structure.:)

I count 15 lines. He's a maverick

BorneTobyWilde

Leiva wrote: »

Surely that's bull that the option to buy Sahin is €8mil :eek:

Feck him
He Would rather live in London than play for one of the most successful clubs in world football,
Could not careless about him, Shallow man by all accounts,

Sappy404

Leiva wrote: »

Surely that's bull that the option to buy Sahin is €8mil :eek:

We'll know in the next couple of days.

Kess73

whatawaster wrote: »

I count 15 lines. He's a maverick

Was ignoring the first line of "Ok Big Problem" as I was taking that as the title of the sonnet.

Chucky the tree

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Feck him
He Would rather live in London than play for one of the most successful clubs in world football,
Could not careless about him, Shallow man by all accounts,

I feel almost embarrassed to be a Liverpool fan every time I read on of your posts.

Turtyturd

Time to burn the Sahin jersey.

Sappy404

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Feck him
He Would rather live in London than play for one of the most successful clubs in world football,
Could not careless about him, Shallow man by all accounts,

Please don't. 'I never fancied her anyway' stuff. Pathetic.

Kess73

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I feel almost embarrassed to be a Liverpool fan every time I read on of your posts.

I love the way he has done away with the full stop.

If you read his posts aloud, and take into account the punctuation as you read, there seems to be a wonderful flow to what he is saying.

BorneTobyWilde

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I feel almost embarrassed to be a Liverpool fan every time I read on of your posts.

Meh, Posting on emotion,
Sticking knife in, I admit it ,,
Pretending i could not careless
Just pissed off that we lost out(again)

Leiva

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I feel almost embarrassed to be a Liverpool fan every time I read on of your posts.

Jeez man lighten up .

Turtyturd

Kess73 wrote: »

I love the way he has done away with the full stop.

If you read his posts aloud, and take into account the punctuation as you read, there seems to be a wonderful flow to what he is saying.

Pfffttt.....cloptrap was doing that before it was cool.