Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

Well, people seemingly wanting us to throw it leads me to believe some people seem to think it's not better to win it than not win it.



If you had a choice between joining a club not in the CL who just won the Uefa Cup or joining a club not in the CL who went out in the group stages of the Uefa Cup....what would you pick?

It is a second rate competition, but that's where we're at. The best way of getting back to being "first rate" is to be the best second rate club around & therefore have the pick of "second rate" players who aren't going to first rate clubs yet. That's the calibre of player I'm talking about, not your Eden Hazards of the world.

Totally agree with this although it could be argued that right up to the last season or two that Hazard would indeed have been in the best of the second rate/tier bracket.

There are plenty of players in the second tier or whatever one wishes to call it that would be massive upgrades on some of the overrated 3rd and 4th tier players we have at present.

Would winning a UEFA cup raise the club's profile in Europe? Of course it would. Most players want to win things and a club that has recently won silverware that they recognise is most likely going to be seen as a club that may win more silverware and maybe progress to a higher level.

LuckyLloyd

5starpool wrote: »

40's? Watch yourself Lloyd or I'll kidnap your dog or something.

My apologies Dom, I meant to suggest you look very young for a fifty year old obviously. A beacon of hope to us all if you will.

Kess73

NukaCola wrote: »

When it was pointed out by amiable that you did not insult me, i reread the post and edited it, and thanked amiables post. I'm sorry but on first read it did seem like an insult.

As for the cups, its not inconcievable that we could make it to the quater finals of the League and FA cup and make it through the group stages. How then can you play those fixtures in a bid to go after cups?

Priority should be laid out
Eg
EPL Full squad
FA Cup mix of reserves and Youth
League cup Youth
Europa Mix of full squad reserves and youth....

What I said is not difficult to understand. The league should be a priority but if the club found itself progressing further in cups, then the teams that get put out for the cup games get stronger the further the club gets in those competitions. What is so hard to get in that? I at no point said to put the first XI out from the start in the cups, I said to use a mix of some of the first XI, some squad filler, and some youth players.

NukaCola

Kess73 wrote: »

What I said is not difficult to understand. The league should be a priority but if the club found itself progressing further in cups, then the teams that get put out for the cup games get stronger the further the club gets in those competitions. What is so hard to get in that? I at no point said to put the first XI out from the start in the cups, I said to use a mix of some of the first XI, some squad filler, and some youth players.

I understand it fine thanks. Can you reply to my actual post though now....thanks

Donnielighto

Get rodgers an early edition of the FM, it'll show the bargains

Dr Galen

Kess73 wrote: »

Would winning a UEFA cup raise the club's profile in Europe? Of course it would. Most players want to win things and a club that has recently won silverware that they recognise is most likely going to be seen as a club that may win more silverware and maybe progress to a higher level.

After the cup successes last season, doing well in the Uefa would be a natural progression for the team, and one that wouldn't go unnoticed by those outside the club. That can't be argued against really.

The Rooster

amiable wrote: »

I think it's slightly off topic and I've genuinely thought this for a while that the winners of the UEFA Cup/Europa League should get a place in the Champions League.

Yeah, I really can't understand UEFA's policy on this. It would make the Europa League far more attractive and important. And would open the door for a lot of clubs to have at least an aspiration of the Champions League (think how close Fulham and Middlebrough came to winning the UEFA Cup).

Kess73

NukaCola wrote: »

I understand it fine thanks. Can you reply to my actual post though now....thanks

I did reply to it.

You asked one question in your post which was

How then can you play those fixtures in a bid to go after cups?

My post answered that question with

The league should be a priority but if the club found itself progressing further in cups, then the teams that get put out for the cup games get stronger the further the club gets in those competitions

and

use a mix of some of the first XI, some squad filler, and some youth players.

Seems to me that I did reply to your post, but it was just another post that you appear to have misread like my earlier post that you claimed contained a personal insult until you edited out your claim once another poster explained it to you.

Kess73

Dr Galen wrote: »

After the cup successes last season, doing well in the Uefa would be a natural progression for the team, and one that wouldn't go unnoticed by those outside the club. That can't be argued against really.

Yep, improving in the league and also maintaining some kind of cup presence, be it in one, two or all three, would be the logical upgrade upon last season/target for this season rather than going down the route of either being good in the league/terrible in the cups or good in the cups/terrible in the league.

ush

League position is the logical progression. Cup performance is emotional or nostalgic.

Kerrigooney

It`s like The Battle Of Blackwater in here today. Again.

I wasn`t here last season. Is it like this when there`s some actual football being played or is it just cos there`s no football and everyone has gone mental?

Dickerty

ush wrote: »

League position is the logical progression. Cup performance is emotional or nostalgic.

If you asked an Arsenal fan whether they'd have given up one of their so-so CL journeys for Cup win in the last few years, I suspect they'd say yes...

Kess73

Kerrigooney wrote: »

It`s like The Battle Of Blackwater in here today. Again.

I wasn`t here last season. Is it like this when there`s some actual football being played or is it just cos there`s no football and everyone has gone mental?

Oh you are going to love match threads then.......








Interesting choice of battle though. Good old vikings.

Ape X

Can some of you grow up please? This thread is becoming intolerable.

Kerrigooney

Kess73 wrote: »

Oh you are going to love match threads then.......

Excellent. Can`t come a minute too soon.

I`d rather argue about something I can see than argue about rumours and gossip. And yes I realise it`s a rumours and gossip thread.

NukaCola

Kess73 wrote: »

Seems to me that I did reply to your post, but it was just another post that you appear to have misread like my earlier post that you claimed contained a personal insult until you edited out your claim once another poster explained it to you.

No you didnt reply to it Kess.
If you read my post correctly you would know that. Or maybe you are ignoring what i'm saying to make your point fit.

Also calling someones comments idiotic if you dont agree with them is an insult, but one i'm not too fussed about being honest.

NukaCola wrote: »

As for the cups, its not inconcievable that we could make it to the quater finals of the League and FA cup and make it through the group stages.

What your saying taking into account the above scenario, is that we should field a strong team? A yes or no will do fine, i'm growing tired of the aggressive tones of your posts directed at me.

Leiva

Kerrigooney wrote: »

It`s like The Battle Of Blackwater in here today. Again.

I wasn`t here last season. Is it like this when there`s some actual football being played or is it just cos there`s no football and everyone has gone mental?

Go back and complete your net spend apprenticeship . It will stand you good in the upcoming match threads

RustySpoon

Kess73 wrote: »

Would winning a UEFA cup raise the club's profile in Europe? Of course it would. Most players want to win things and a club that has recently won silverware that they recognise is most likely going to be seen as a club that may win more silverware and maybe progress to a higher level.

Doing well in the UEFA cup also raises the club's UEFA co-efficient which makes draws in all european comps easier in the long run, if champions league is attained again, progression would be (theoretically) easier.

Gbear

I think there's alot of stupid points scoring going on here.

You can think that 1 cup, another final and 8th, while not being good enough didn't merit sacking without having to think that 2 cups + 17th place would've been acceptable.

There was literally no chance of getting CL last season. We were in with a shout for a while but it wasn't going to happen. We weren't going to be in the top 4 and certainly not in the top 3.

You can also be disappointed with the appointment of Rodgers while still supporting him, having hope that he will do well and supporting the team.

And if you bitch about players on message boards and then go and support the team at a match that may well make you a hypocrite, but rather that than doing no good to anyone by moaning at players on the pitch from the stands.
Supporters have a job to do. The clue is in the name.

That doesn't mean we can't criticise when the time is right. The time is not right at a match when moaning at players is just cutting your nose off to spite your face.

NukaCola

Gbear wrote: »

I think there's alot of stupid points scoring going on here.

I dont think there is!


Do i get a point

Dickerty

Gbear wrote: »

There was literally no chance of getting CL last season. We were in with a shout for a while but it wasn't going to happen. We weren't going to be in the top 4 and certainly not in the top 3.

The only reason we weren't 3rd or 4th was....the league results were not good enough! So there was of course a chance, considering how Chelsea and Arsenal both started. It was Newcastle top 3 for a long time, surely they should have LITERALLY less chance than us??

noodler

Well, I for one think we should have kept Robbie Keane.

Kess73

NukaCola wrote: »

No you didnt reply to it Kess.
If you read my post correctly you would know that. Or maybe you are ignoring what i'm saying to make your point fit.

Also calling someones comments idiotic if you dont agree with them is an insult, but one i'm not too fussed about being honest.



What your saying taking into account the above scenario, is that we should field a strong team? A yes or no will do fine, i'm growing tired of the aggressive tones of your posts directed at me.

The rage of Caliban at not seeing his face in a mirror frightens us so and yet it is the laughter of Caliban seeing his face in the rockpool that lifts us.


Best play synth in a band of synth players.

NukaCola

Kess73 wrote: »

The rage of Caliban at not seeing his face in a mirror frightens us so and yet it is the laughter of Caliban seeing his face in the rockpool that lifts us.


Best play synth in a band of synth players.

So your not answering the post. Cool.
Idiotic comments btw......thats cool to say now right?

NukaCola

noodler wrote: »

Well, I for one think we should have kept Robbie Keane.

Better buy than Andy Carroll.....on the shorter term

T.C.O.B

Gbear wrote: »

There was literally no chance of getting CL last season. QUOTE]

Thanks Jamie, top, top post!

ush

Dickerty wrote: »

If you asked an Arsenal fan whether they'd have given up one of their so-so CL journeys for Cup win in the last few years, I suspect they'd say yes...

Why should I care about Arsenal fans?

Bounty Hunter

gafferino wrote: »

LL is worse than Wil at this stage.

lads can we please avoid talking about how good or bad you think a poster is. It wont really help anything and if you disagree with a posters opinion the best option is 1) Don't reply to it and 2) There is the option of the ignore list.

amiable

Or to make your case and say why you disagree

amiable

Reports that Milan are close to signing Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa coming from Italy

Dickerty

ush wrote: »

Why should I care about Arsenal fans?

The argument is that getting a CL place is somehow ALWAYS more important that winning trophies. We won trophies in 2006 and 2012, Arsenal haven't won since 2005. I think most players (and fans) would give up playing in the CL once every few years to win a trophy...

Kess73

NukaCola wrote: »

So your not answering the post. Cool.
Idiotic comments btw......thats cool to say now right?

Your question was answered in a number of my posts, if you need me to simplify it even further with one dollar words like a yes or a no, then that's your problem.


Yeah calling something in my post an idiotic comment is fine as I won't go crying about it being a personal insult before editing out that claim, and I won't be needing another poster to explain it to me either.

Now if we are done wasting each other's time, especially mine, I would prefer to not swap any more replies with you from here in as it is mind numbingly dull.

missingtime

Joe Cole might be a nice guy around the dinner ladies and to a lesser extend the squad but he's tearing this thread apart. The sooner he goes the better.

LuckyLloyd

The Cup / League debate on here tends to be silly because both sides are fixated upon using extremes to illustrate their point. Sure, saying you would prefer a relegation scrap and two cups over 4th and no cups is silly; but so is claiming that pushing for an extra spot up the table at the tail end of the season when CL qualification is beyond us is worthy of more focus than the FA Cup Final.

The Arsenal game effectively ended our CL hopes last year. It came a full 6 days after the League Cup final so the players were well rested for it. After that game it was absolutely correct and proper that the FA Cup Quarter and Semi finals were prioritised over surrounding league fixtures. Ideally we could have kept it going on all fronts like we could (to varying extents) during the Houllier and Benitez years, but that wasn't to be. It is obviously the long term aim.

The thing is, by the time the big games come along in the cup competitions you are well beyond Christmas and should know whether CL qualification is in reach or not. If we're 10+ points adrift of 4th spot in late February and have a Europa League tie coming up against Sparta Prague then it should be clear where the priotity should lie during the week concerned and I think arguing to the contrary seems just a little silly.

NukaCola

Kess73 wrote: »

Your question was answered in a number of my posts, if you need me to simplify it even further with one dollar words like a yes or a no, then that's your problem.


Yeah calling something in my post an idiotic comment is fine as I won't go crying about it being a personal insult before editing out that claim, and I won't be needing another poster to explain it to me either.

Now if we are done wasting each other's time, especially mine, I would prefer to not swap any more replies with you from here in as it is mind numbingly dull.

The question was never answered.
Also i never cried about it being a personal insult, not once.

Knex*

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Excellent. Can`t come a minute too soon.

I`d rather argue about something I can see than argue about rumours and gossip. And yes I realise it`s a rumours and gossip thread.

Heh heh.

Knex*

This place is a barrel wheelbarrow of laughs today anyway!

Dr Galen

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The Cup / League debate on here tends to be silly because both sides are fixated upon using extremes to illustrate their point. Sure, saying you would prefer a relegation scrap and two cups over 4th and no cups is silly; but so is claiming that pushing for an extra spot up the table at the tail end of the season when CL qualification is beyond us is worthy of more focus than the FA Cup Final.

The Arsenal game effectively ended our CL hopes last year. It came a full 6 days after the League Cup final so the players were well rested for it. After that game it was absolutely correct and proper that the FA Cup Quarter and Semi finals were prioritised over surrounding league fixtures. Ideally we could have kept it going on all fronts like we could (to varying extents) during the Houllier and Benitez years, but that wasn't to be. It is obviously the long term aim.

The thing is, by the time the big games come along in the cup competitions you are well beyond Christmas and should know whether CL qualification is in reach or not. If we're 10+ points adrift of 4th spot in late February and have a Europa League tie coming up against Sparta Prague then it should be clear where the priotity should lie during the week concerned and I think arguing to the contrary seems just a little silly.

Well summarised Lloyd and I think it shows quite clearly that a) the truth is always somewhere in the middle and b) priorities have to change and evolve as the season progresses.

First time I've agreed with ya in a week :P

amiable

http://newsframes.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/tale-of-two-racisms/

ush

Dickerty wrote: »

The argument is that getting a CL place is somehow ALWAYS more important that winning trophies. We won trophies in 2006 and 2012, Arsenal haven't won since 2005. I think most players (and fans) would give up playing in the CL once every few years to win a trophy...

Well its not really a very logical or financially sound argument.

Getting a CL place is financially important. Its also keeps the club's profile raised. Also, Arsenal made such a big deal out of having to win a domestic cup trophy to progress, that they choked against Birmingham.

Also, the "Arsenal would like to win a cup" argument, we aren't qualifying year-in-year-out for the CL. They are. Fans of every persuasion would prefer to be in the CL than Wembley in February. Thats fairly obvious.

Look at Spurs last season. Unlucky to miss out on CL qualification. But they had the right idea about the EL.

We're gonna have to cut our cloth to suit our measure. Thats Rodgers job to manage his resources. If we get to advanced stages in the cups, well and good. But last season we took the foot off the gas in the league, when our rivals were wobbling.

ush

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The thing is, by the time the big games come along in the cup competitions you are well beyond Christmas and should know whether CL qualification is in reach or not. If we're 10+ points adrift of 4th spot in late February and have a Europa League tie coming up against Sparta Prague then it should be clear where the priotity should lie during the week concerned and I think arguing to the contrary seems just a little silly.

They'll never get CL football, if they have that attitude. Cups aren't any good to LFC as a "priority".

Kerrigooney

amiable wrote: »

http://newsframes.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/tale-of-two-racisms/

Can open....worms everywhere. As it should be. It`ll be interesting to see what the FA do about Terry now. If he doesn`t get at least an 8 game ban it`ll be an absolute disgrace.

Kess73

ush wrote: »

Well its not really a very logical or financially sound argument.

Getting a CL place is financially important. Its also keeps the club's profile raised. Also, Arsenal made such a big deal out of having to win a domestic cup trophy to progress, that they choked against Birmingham.

Also, the "Arsenal would like to win a cup" argument, we aren't qualifying year-in-year-out for the CL. They are. Fans of every persuasion would prefer to be in the CL than Wembley in February. Thats fairly obvious.

Look at Spurs last season. Unlucky to miss out on CL qualification. But they had the right idea about the EL.

We're gonna have to cut our cloth to suit our measure. Thats Rodgers job to manage his resources. If we get to advanced stages in the cups, well and good. But last season we took the foot off the gas in the league, when our rivals were wobbling.

Did we take our foot off the gas, or was it just a worse wobble than the other teams were having?


To say we took our foot off the gas is to suggest that we had it in us to overtake the teams ahead of us, when our form says something very different.

I would say that we had the numbers last season to compete on all fronts, but we simply did not have the quality as we brought in players that were little more than passengers and stuck with those players rather than use our squad filler players as much as we should have.

If people look at many of our cup games last season, we struggled as badly in them as in the league games, we just had the rub of green in a few of them or just about managed to outperform lower league clubs in others. Save for the odd game here and there, in the league and cups, we were horribly predictable, spineless, and one paced.

amiable

Liverpool just were not good enough to finish in the Top 4 last season and anyone that says different is kidding themselves IMHO

ush

Kess73 wrote: »

Did we take our foot off the gas, or was it just a worse wobble than the other teams were having?


To say we took our foot off the gas is to suggest that we had it in us to overtake the teams ahead of us, when our form says something very different.

I would say that we had the numbers last season to compete on all fronts, but we simply did not have the quality as we brought in players that were little more than passengers and stuck with those players rather than use our squad filler players as much as we should have.

If people look at many of our cup games last season, we struggled as badly in them as in the league games, we just had the rub of green in a few of them or just about managed to outperform lower league clubs in others. Save for the odd game here and there, in the league and cups, we were horribly predictable, spineless, and one paced.

That squad, better managed and with a striker purchased in the january transfer window, would have been up there. Up there with the might NUFC.

Kess73

amiable wrote: »

Liverpool just were not good enough to finish in the Top 4 last season and anyone that says different is kidding themselves IMHO

The final league position never lies, no matter how much of a cliche it may seem to say so.


There was a lot of talk last season about how the squad was the fourth, fifth or sixth best in the league. It was not.

The disgrace was the fact that the 8th best team in the league was paying the fourth highest wages. CL wages for mid table quality.

5live

We really really really REALLY need a compeditive match soon before the frustration blows this thread apart. Only a few days to go

Knex*

5live wrote: »

We really really really REALLY need a compeditive match soon before the frustration blows this thread apart. Only a few days to go

God help this place if we're crap.

citytillidie

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Can open....worms everywhere. As it should be. It`ll be interesting to see what the FA do about Terry now. If he doesn`t get at least an 8 game ban it`ll be an absolute disgrace.

But here is the thing everyone could see that the media were out to disgrace Suarez from the start, while the same media set out defending John Terry from the start.

ush

Kess73 wrote: »

The final league position never lies, no matter how much of a cliche it may seem to say so.


There was a lot of talk last season about how the squad was the fourth, fifth or sixth best in the league. It was not.

The disgrace was the fact that the 8th best team in the league was paying the fourth highest wages. CL wages for mid table quality.

The league position doesn't lie about the season you've had. Now without wishing to get into quantum physics, (go back in time, assassinate Hitler, buy a striker in the Jan transfer window), did that squad have more points in them.

I'd say yes, properly managed. The squad wasn't focused enough on the league. (That Bolton away match will haunt me till I die.) Neither was the manager. Sorry, but there was too much nostalgia holding LFC back last year.