2013 NFL DRAFT

HigginsJ

taidghbaby wrote: »

Should 2 + 2 = 8 in this case though? I have seen very little of Nassib so can't really comment!

Also seen Nagler (I think) on twitter saying that a lot of the missed or off-timing throws today are to be expected! Unfamiliar receivers an what not!!

Though throwing the ball into the back of your guards helmet is poor!

Hard to know how good he is. He's receivers at Syracuse weren't great.

http://nflsfuture.com/2013/01/16/ryan-nassib-scouting-report/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1464730-2013-nfl-draft-full-scouting-report-for-ryan-nassib

Justin10

Just noticed no really big Wide receivers at this year senior bowl.

For a TE I like Nick Kasa from Colorado.

D. Johnson out of Arkansas im guessing will go in the 5th maybe later but if he stops running so straight up he could be decent.

taidghbaby

HigginsJ wrote: »

Hard to know how good he is. He's receivers at Syracuse weren't great.

http://nflsfuture.com/2013/01/16/ryan-nassib-scouting-report/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1464730-2013-nfl-draft-full-scouting-report-for-ryan-nassib

Well the bills HC will know him so I guess if wants him then take him at 8! Or try to trade down to mid or late first round!

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

Lets take out the Alabama performance and put it down to this other stuff.

Now tell me how you've come to the conclusion that he is not that good?

lol. Why the hell would you take out the Alabama performance? Yea lets just completely ignore the biggest game he played against NFL standard opposition and just ignore it. Even dealing with the hoax story that should not be enough to make him completely forget how to play. Outside of that he seems to struggle getting off blocks and isn't great in coverage either.

Leslie91

Dunno if this lad has been discussed yet?, just thought he might be an interesting story. He's Estonian, former juniorworld discus champ, ends up as a DE at SMU, blocks loads of kicks and could be a 2nd round pick.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=103696&draftyear=2013&genpos=DE

HigginsJ

Leslie91 wrote: »

Dunno if this lad has been discussed yet?, just thought he might be an interesting story. He's Estonian, former juniorworld discus champ, ends up as a DE at SMU, blocks loads of kicks and could be a 2nd round pick.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=103696&draftyear=2013&genpos=DE

Yea he has loads of potential. The game against fresno was unreal. They ended up treble teaming him for most of the 2nd half. If he does well at the combine he could end up in the 1st.

taidghbaby

Senior bowl practice coverage on NFL network now!

Mayock just mentioned he's looking forward to seeing a certain Estonian!

taidghbaby

And kyle Juszczyk just creamed a linebacker in a pass protection drill!

Edit: think it was a safety!

Stev_o

Damnit last year the NFL streamed this live on their website.

taidghbaby

Desmond Trufant just called out Markus Wheaton and pretty much got burned down the sideline! Funny

DDC1990

Jones guy from UCLA looks pretty decent as a pass rusher.

eagle eye

Chucky the tree wrote: »

lol. Why the hell would you take out the Alabama performance? Yea lets just completely ignore the biggest game he played against NFL standard opposition and just ignore it. Even dealing with the hoax story that should not be enough to make him completely forget how to play. Outside of that he seems to struggle getting off blocks and isn't great in coverage either.

I'm asking you to ignore the Alabama game and critique him without including it.

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm asking you to ignore the Alabama game and critique him without including it.

I did.

From a neutral fans perspective would the chiefs do the following trade

Chiefs get;
4th overall pick
Mike Vick

Eagles get:
1st overall pick
Maby a 6th or 7th

Ried loves Vick and it gives the chiefs an excuse to not draft a qb in a year when none deserve a top 15 pick never mind the no 1 and hopefully star drops to them and they get there nose tackle

And the eagles who were probably gona cut Vick anyway get the top pick and Luke jockel who I think everyone agrees they want or if they switch to a 3-4 they get star

Leslie91

Stev_o wrote: »

Damnit last year the NFL streamed this live on their website.

Was just about to ask this question... if one doesn't have Gamepass no more (ended with end of reg season) is it possible to watch NFL Network coverage?

matthew8

Oh god no. A million times over no. Ask yourself this, if Michael Vick decided at this point in his career that he would cut all ties to the NFL and declare for the draft again, do you believe for one second he would go number 1?

DDC1990

Leslie91 wrote: »

Was just about to ask this question... if one doesn't have Gamepass no more (ended with end of reg season) is it possible to watch NFL Network coverage?

Gamepass is free in Netherlands, Argentina and New Zealand (I think), so theoretically if you were in one of those countries, or your computer thought it was in one of those countries it would be possible to get Gamepass free, any time of the year.

JaMarcus Hustle

Vick is rubbish. Chiefs would be foolish to bring him in.

matthew8

matthew8 wrote: »

Oh god no. A million times over no. Ask yourself this, if Michael Vick decided at this point in his career that he would cut all ties to the NFL and declare for the draft again, do you believe for one second he would go number 1?

He's not going no 1 your dropping 3 spots for him

For the record I'm not a fan of Vick any more I think he's to beat up and can't read a blitz for his life but andy likes to stick with his guys and is getting him and a top 4 player worse than getting geno unless we see different over the next few months there's no qb that I would take top 10

matthew8

Sorry thought you said 4th round pick. Still wouldn't do it.

matthew8

matthew8 wrote: »

Sorry thought you said 4th round pick. Still wouldn't do it.

Ya thought so it made sense to me but bias will do that

Syferus

Vick is far from rubbish. His line is, though, and he needs particularly good protection to be an effective pocket passer because he needs an extra moment to read the field. His other atributes more than make up for that, though.

The Chiefs, or any other team for that matter, can't do a lot better than Vick this off-season. Flynn is totally unproven and a Wilson that to begin the year was nothing special beating him so handily for the starting job raises flags. Alex Smith is a very solid QB in SF's system but what would happen when he's asked to shoulder more at a poorer team? Vick still presents the best upside and the most proven production of the three.

I have to imagine Chip Kelly would love to find a way to restructure and keep him in Philly for a couple years more because he'd be ideal for his style of offense.

HigginsJ

Syferus wrote: »

Vick is far from rubbish. His line is, though, and he needs particularly good protection to be an effective pocket passer because he needs an extra moment to read the field. His other atributes more than make up for that, though.

The Chiefs, or any other team for that matter, can't do a lot better than Vick this off-season. Flynn is totally unproven and a Wilson that to begin the year was nothing special beating him so handily for the starting job raises flags. Alex Smith is a very solid QB in SF's system but what would happen when he's asked to shoulder more at a poorer team? Vick still presents the best upside and the most proven production of the three.

I have to imagine Chip Kelly would love to find a way to restructure and keep him in Philly for a couple years more because he'd be ideal for his style of offense.

There are a few problems with Vick as your starting QB. Number one is the fact that you have to have a very good back up as he simply cannot stay healthy for a full season. He is a turnover machine of late. He is not good at reading blitzes.
In his 3 seasons at Philly his passer rating has dropped, his rushing yards have dropped.

He is just not the same player he once was and he does not appear to have evolved or improved hs weak areas.

Red Crow

Pat White would suit Chip Kelly too it doesn't mean he's a good fit as a player. The fact is that the Eagles fans are sick of Vick. They have seen a guy who has been unproductive, unreliable and not durable. It's time for the Eagles to move on from Vick. Despite Foles' poor release and poor deep accuracy he has great pocket presence with a rubbish OLine. Vick just can't read the defence and is very sloppy with the ball (fumbles, tipped passes, interceptions).

JaMarcus Hustle

Syferus wrote: »

Vick is far from rubbish.

He's very, very close to rubbish actually. He's right beside it. One might argue that he's right on top of it, and that it's hard to tell where rubbish ends and Vick begins. He's been responsible for 31 turnovers in the past 2 seasons, and they haven't even been full seasons at that. He's missed close to 30% of games in that time. He is incredibly unreliable, both in terms of getting him on the field and what he does once he's there.

Syferus wrote:

His other atributes more than make up for that, though.

What attributes though? Vick has very little left in the tank other than a pretty throw. I think you're living in the past. This is not pre-prison Vick, it's not even 2010 Vick. Injuries have taken their toll and what appears to be a genuine fear of blitzing opponents has crippled his game. Maybe he could regain some semblence of effectiveness in Kansas with a good O-line, but the Chiefs line is terrible (even Eric Winston had a poor year) and the last thing a terrible offensive line needs is a QB under center who - by your own admission - "needs an extra moment to read the field". There's the argument that draft Joeckel would help, but the OP's suggestion involved the Chiefs trading their 1st overall pick for the 4th overall pick. Not much chance they get Joeckel at 4th. I'm not sure how Vick moving to a poorer team with the same head coach would improve his fortunes.

Syferus wrote:

I have to imagine Chip Kelly would love to find a way to restructure and keep him in Philly for a couple years more because he'd be ideal for his style of offense.

I also have to disagree with this. I don't think he's ideal at all, and I'm surprised at the number of articles claiming he is. I think people are getting fooled by the idea of Vick as this athletic, dual-threat offensive leader. But Kelly's offence is very read-option heavy, and Vick's inability to read opposing defences is one of the first things out of anyone's mouth when their criticising him. Also, if you look at the likes of Dennis Dixon, Darron Thomas and Marcus Marriota - these are all big, tall guys who Kelly has had success with executing a read-option - not something I'd class Vick as at all.

Red Crow

HigginsJ wrote: »

There are a few problems with Vick as your starting QB. Number one is the fact that you have to have a very good back up as he simply cannot stay healthy for a full season. He is a turnover machine of late. He is not good at reading blitzes.
In his 3 seasons at Philly his passer rating has dropped, his rushing yards have dropped.

He is just not the same player he once was and he does not appear to have evolved or improved hs weak areas.

Yeah that's a key point. He's managed to go backwards over the past few years.

Vicks biggest issue is he never learned to read the blitz and never learned to take a 3 step drop and get rid of the ball because he was always Abel to avoid the rusher anyway.

Now he's list a few steps and a lot of his agility and he's scared out of his mind of taking a hit

Stev_o

How about a return to talking about the 2013 draft and not Vick....

taidghbaby

Mason Immense Millipede wrote: »

Vicks biggest issue is he never learned to read the blitz and never learned to take a 3 step drop and get rid of the ball because he was always Abel to avoid the rusher anyway.

Now he's list a few steps and a lot of his agility and he's scared out of his mind of taking a hit

Thing about a Chip Kelly offence though is he won't have to make a lot of reads! He'll probably know where the ball is going pre snap so it's just a case of execution! I also expect Kelly to adjust his offence to reduce the number of designed QB runs (not that the Ducks had a huge amount anyway)!

Vick may well be spent but if he does find a starting spot then his best hope would be in a hurry up offence where he's not holding on to the ball for too long!

taidghbaby

Stev_o wrote: »

How about a return to talking about the 2013 draft and not Vick....

To be fair what happens in the draft can very much so depend on FA!

Stev_o

Stev_o wrote: »

How about a return to talking about the 2013 draft and not Vick....

Go for it dude who you wana talk about

JaMarcus Hustle

Stev_o wrote: »

How about a return to talking about the 2013 draft and not Vick....

The Vick discussion was relevant to the draft question asked. If you don't like it, don't read it and stop acting like a baby.

JaMarcus Hustle

taidghbaby wrote: »

Thing about a Chip Kelly offence though is he won't have to make a lot of reads!

That's not true at all.

Stev_o

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

The Vick discussion was relevant to the draft question asked. If you don't like it, don't read it and stop acting like a baby.

No its not, go on the Eagles thread if you want to talk about Vick stop derailing a thread which is supposed to be talking about draft prospects not Vick.


Lattimore will he get drafted?

Neil3030

Infractions for JaMarcus Hustle (Personal Abuse) and Stev_o (Back seat modding)

Back on topic please.

JaMarcus Hustle

Stev_o wrote: »

No its not, go on the Eagles thread if you want to talk about Vick stop derailing a thread which is supposed to be talking about draft prospects not Vick.


Lattimore will he get drafted?

It's about the draft. That includes what directions teams will go in. Chiefs need a QB, hence discussing whether trading their 1st pick for a QB is a good idea is relevant discussion. It's perfectly on topic. Deal with it.

taidghbaby

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

That's not true at all.

Sorry a better way to describe it is he won't be sitting in the pocket making reads (or running back and forth behind the o-line as he does)! The ball will be out of his hands quicker! He gets in trouble and makes mistakes when he starts scrambling around IMO!

taidghbaby

Stev_o wrote: »

Lattimore will he get drafted?

Depends on his pre combine and pre draft medical reports! Be surprised if he doesn't get drafted its just a case of how high!

OAOB

Saw a mock which had Lattimore going to the Falcons, makes a lot of sense as next year they can split carries between Turner and Rodgers and give Lattimore time to rehab fully so that he'll be ready to replace Turner the following season.
Unless he's ready to go next year its unlikely he'll be taken in the top 3 rounds, maybe somewhere in the fourth

davyjose

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

Vick is rubbish. Chiefs would be foolish to bring him in.

You could say... he's gone to the dogs...

I'll show myself out!

HigginsJ

davyjose wrote: »

You could say... he's gone to the dogs...

[SIZE="1"]I'll show myself out![/SIZE]

Please do!!!!

Mike Mayock n Charles Davis were discussing Lattimore yesterday. They were very non commital and said hard to tell until medical checks completed. They said he had 1st round talent n made the obvious Willis McGahee comparison.

If he checks out medically id say he'll go back half of 2nd round. If there are still medical concerns who knows how far he'd fall.

Was watching the QB's being put through their paces by Raiders coach. I'd criticise Mike Glennons footwork but he really has none. Very heavy footed/slow footed.

taidghbaby

HigginsJ wrote: »

Please do!!!!

Mike Mayock n Charles Davis were discussing Lattimore yesterday. They were very non commital and said hard to tell until medical checks completed. They said he had 1st round talent n made the obvious Willis McGahee comparison.

If he checks out medically id say he'll go back half of 2nd round. If there are still medical concerns who knows how far he'd fall.

Was watching the QB's being put through their paces by Raiders coach. I'd criticise Mike Glennons footwork but he really has none. Very heavy footed/slow footed.

You obviously watched the same footage as I did!

If he's not going to be 100% before the start of the season then I think 1st round is very high, especially considering most teams use 2/3 backs now!

DBBacker

taidghbaby wrote: »

Sorry a better way to describe it is he won't be sitting in the pocket making reads (or running back and forth behind the o-line as he does)! The ball will be out of his hands quicker! He gets in trouble and makes mistakes when he starts scrambling around IMO!

Chip Kelly likes to read off the Backside Defensive End or Defensive Tackle and let the Quarterback decide what he wants to do with the ball. If the Quarterback decides the end/tackle has committed to the runningback the Quarterback then has the option to keep it and go. It would be wrong to say the ball will spend less time in the Quarterback's hands. The biggest problem that could arise for Vick in this system, Is that Vick is not the runner he used to be and age and injuries are starting to hamper his mobility.

Quarterbacks and Runningbacks in this system see more contact hits than a lot of the other systems. This is the reason why Chip Kelly brings in more athletic guys. Speed Kills and avoids tackles.

eagle eye

I was just thinking about Chip Kelly and he could bring in Vince Young on very low money as insurance. He still has the athletic ability and I think he would thrive in Kelly's system, thats of course if Kelly's playbook can be successful in the NFL.

davegrohl48

Which teams are likely to approach the 2013 draft in a Moneyball fashion? I'v read a little bit about it and apparently Patriots/Packers are big into using stats to bring in value without costing a fortune.
I think NFL Combine workouts are focussed on too much.
Undervalued is evidence from College games of players with established skills.
Is there any evidence that Universities with poorer football programs deliver quality players into the draft that can be picked up in later rounds?
Example a WR who had to contend in College with a QB who ran the ball alot and had poor passing ability.
If there were the stats available you'd see it with comparing:
- Total Catchable passes
- Total Yards gained after posession
Not so much looking at TDs as on a poorer team your visits to the red zone might be few and far between.

HigginsJ

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Which teams are likely to approach the 2013 draft in a Moneyball fashion? I'v read a little bit about it and apparently Patriots/Packers are big into using stats to bring in value without costing a fortune.
I think NFL Combine workouts are focussed on too much.
Undervalued is evidence from College games of players with established skills.
Is there any evidence that Universities with poorer football programs deliver quality players into the draft that can be picked up in later rounds?
Example a WR who had to contend in College with a QB who ran the ball alot and had poor passing ability.
If there were the stats available you'd see it with comparing:
- Total Catchable passes
- Total Yards gained after posession
Not so much looking at TDs as on a poorer team your visits to the red zone might be few and far between.

Not sure you can really take a moneyball strategy through the draft. The position you select a player basically determines how much you pay him.

Hazys

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Which teams are likely to approach the 2013 draft in a Moneyball fashion? I'v read a little bit about it and apparently Patriots/Packers are big into using stats to bring in value without costing a fortune.
I think NFL Combine workouts are focussed on too much.
Undervalued is evidence from College games of players with established skills.
Is there any evidence that Universities with poorer football programs deliver quality players into the draft that can be picked up in later rounds?
Example a WR who had to contend in College with a QB who ran the ball alot and had poor passing ability.
If there were the stats available you'd see it with comparing:
- Total Catchable passes
- Total Yards gained after posession
Not so much looking at TDs as on a poorer team your visits to the red zone might be few and far between.

I don't think any NFL teams follow the Moneyball system (although the new Bills GM is going to try and use it http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/blog/playbook/2012/12/could-moneyball-approach-work-for.html?page=all ).

Stats in the football are extremely misleading because there are so many variables in a play that consists of 11 players Vs 11 players. The majority of baseball is the strategy and match up of the pitcher versus the batter, a lot more simple to define.

For example, Vince Wilfork is one of the best DTs in football but rarely shows up heavily on the Box Score because he is double teamed. So he takes away two players so others can make plays. Other examples, are this CB had 10 ints this year, he must be an excellent CB...well if the team he plays for has an unbelievable pass rush, its going to cause the QB to throw more erratically. Is he better than a CB that has 5 ints with a bad pass rush?

Every Stat in the NFL can be argued against.


Chandler Jones had 10 sacks in 30 games in College. He had 6 sacks in 12 games for the Patriots...increasing his production against stronger opponents, those stats don't make sense. The majority of NFL teams look at athletic ability, technique and knowledge of systems over stats.

davegrohl48

I believe the strategy is to trade away higher round pick options. So rather than landing a multi million dollar new QB a team focusses on picking up a quantity of lower round value.
So you end up with a deeper quality of player in the overall squad rather than 4/5 standouts.

Hazys

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I believe the strategy is to trade away higher round pick options. So rather than landing a multi million dollar new QB a team focusses on picking up a quantity of lower round value.
So you end up with a deeper quality of player in the overall squad rather than 4/5 standouts.

Patriots for the past couple of years always traded down to get more picks. I kinda like it, the more players you pick the more likely you are to hit one out of the park but their is less odds of a lower round player making it. Also, rosters can have only 53 players, if you draft 10 players, realistically how many can make the team?

But last year, the Pats traded up on multiple occasions which was a surprise and had a fantastic draft.

Its impossible to say which strategy is better, its all dependent on the situation and the available players.


If you end up with 4/5 standouts in any draft you'll be laughing. Its very rare to find 4/5 players who stick with a long term not to mention drafting 4/5 starters from one draft.

davegrohl48

Hazys wrote: »

Patriots for the past couple of years always traded down to get more picks. I kinda like it, the more players you pick the more likely you are to hit one out of the park but their is less odds of a lower round player making it. Also, rosters can have only 53 players, if you draft 10 players, realistically how many can make the team?

But last year, the Pats traded up on multiple occasions which was a surprise and had a fantastic draft.

Its impossible to say which strategy is better, its all dependent on the situation and the available players.


If you end up with 4/5 standouts in any draft you'll be laughing. Its very rare to find 4/5 players who stick with a long term not to mention drafting 4/5 starters from one draft.

The 4/5 standouts sorry I meant you may have a situation where an owner is pressuring a GM to piece together a dream QB/RB/WR. So they'd be looking to take a first round pick to select another piece of the puzzle. But some GMs are probably happy to go for lower rounds and not worry over how many pro bowlers they have in their squad.
It's an interesting concept the idea of seeking out value. There was a study showing the physical side of the combine didn't have much of a correlation to NFL success. Then you get around to was that study in itself correct.
For me I think an evidence based approach on College games is the best route. Combining stats and gametape. On gametape you can see if a RB is overrated as his College career success might have been mainly connected with him being a physical beast. Bring him into the NFL there is a big chance he may stuggle if he was not learning evasiveness skills in game situations in College.