Big 4 Firm - Working Late

LegacyUser

I've been working in a large accountancy firm in their audit department for almost one year. The culture of the firm is to work late every day and by late I mean 7pm - 8pm every day with no overtime and no time in lieu. I'm really staring to get tired of working late all the time even when there are no particular deadlines. Most of the staff who work in large accounting firms train there from an early age so they don't know any different and go along without saying anything on the expectation that if they keep their head down then a promotion will follow.

Has anyone worked in this environment before and what is it with white collar workers that they are willing to work for free?

micosoft

Time_to_fly wrote: »

I've been working in a large accountancy firm in their audit department for almost one year. The culture of the firm is to work late every day and by late I mean 7pm - 8pm every day with no overtime and no time in lieu. I'm really staring to get tired of working late all the time even when there are no particular deadlines. Most of the staff who work in large accounting firms train there from an early age so they don't know any different and go along without saying anything on the expectation that if they keep their head down then a promotion will follow.

Has anyone worked in this environment before and what is it with white collar workers that they are willing to work for free?

You answered your own question? For the potential rewards. You work for the big 4 because you are ambitious and willing to put in the work with the expectation that you will make partner or get a senior role in a company earning megabucks. Perhaps you need to rethink your career if this is not to your liking. Plenty of small sleepy bookkeeping practices where you can knock off at 5.....

Stavro Mueller

Yeah, it's a case of pain now for pleasure later. It'd be known in the industry as well that people in these firms are worked like dogs. If you can stick it out, it stands you in good stead in the future. It's to have the name on your CV.

okiss

Are you finished all your accounting exams or are they paying for you to do these? Some times people think if I work late every evening it will be noticed and I will get up the ladder quicker but this is not always the case.
You need to decide if the long hours your doing now will be to your gain at a later date. This could be a promotion or the fact that you can put down a big 4 company on your cv.
At this stage you need to see if you could get your work done in the normal day or decide I will work till x or y 2 or 3 nights a week & make plans for the other nights which mean you have to finish on time. I would also finish on time on a Friday.
I would start to think from now where you want to be in the next 12 to 18 months and what you need to get there. You may decide that due to what your are doing at the moment your learning a lot, you have to finish exams ect that is worth staying where you are or you may decide that in 12 months I want to be doing this or working elsewhere.
I would also plan a holiday or take an odd day off as it sounds like you are tired at the moment. Doing these hours will take a toll on your health unless you take a brake or learn to switch off.

LegacyUser

Op here again - Just to clarify, I was an outside hire i.e. I didn't train in the firm and was already qualified when I joined. I also think there are some misconceptions, one being that accountants who work in Big 4 firms earn mega bucks. With the exception of partner, senior staff don't earn that much and there wouldn't be many people below partner on more than €100k which is a good salary but when you take into account income tax, USC, PRSI is over 50% and the hours put in at evenings and weekends, it doesn't work out as good as it seems.
Starting salary for a qualified accountant is about 40 - 45k.

Newaglish

Time_to_fly_again wrote: »

Op here again - Just to clarify, I was an outside hire i.e. I didn't train in the firm and was already qualified when I joined. I also think there are some misconceptions, one being that accountants who work in Big 4 firms earn mega bucks. With the exception of partner, senior staff don't earn that much and there wouldn't be many people below partner on more than €100k which is a good salary but when you take into account income tax, USC, PRSI is over 50% and the hours put in at evenings and weekends, it doesn't work out as good as it seems.
Starting salary for a qualified accountant is about 40 - 45k.

45k is a pretty good salary for someone who is only three to four years out of college and is, what, 23 or 24? I've heard people complain about the wages before but there's very few jobs that will increase so rapidly year-on-year for people with relatively limited experience.

I'm not an auditor but outside of busy season I didn't think auditors worked a significant amount of regular overtime?

LegacyUser

Newaglish wrote: »

45k is a pretty good salary for someone who is only three to four years out of college and is, what, 23 or 24? I've heard people complain about the wages before but there's very few jobs that will increase so rapidly year-on-year for people with relatively limited experience.

I'm not an auditor but outside of busy season I didn't think auditors worked a significant amount of regular overtime?

You're right to a certain extent however there is one of the Big 4 firms that is known to work their staff pretty hard all year. They're also the only Big 4 who don't pay overtime or time in lieu.

The problem for me is that it is assumed staff will work overtime and as a result jobs are budgeted and deadlines are set accordingly. I think most people are willing to put in additional hours when there is a genuine deadline to meet or they need to get something over the line, but when it's assumed and expected that you are going to work late with no additional pay then that to me is taking the piss, especially when the employer charges by the hour!

doolox

...go to the other 3 of the big 4 ASAP. You owe them nothing by staying. As for future promotion etc I'd say that financial sector will be shrinking in the future so future gain for present pain is a non-runner.

The only caveat I can think of is that the other 3 companies are operating at a competitive disadvantage if they are paying OT or allowing TOIL and one of them might go under.....

Your company being the "meanest" may make if the most likely to survive longest but you will have to work that out whether you want security and modest misery or immediate cash for work done.

levi

Who out of the big four is going to 'go under'?

Also, I don't think any firms pay their management overtime - it's only at trainee level do you get time off in lieu.

I think in financial services, banking is a small part of most firms portfolios (the part of financial sector that is shrinking). Funds are the big money makers and that sector appears to be growing in Ireland.

I'm not sure what firm the OP is in but I reckon you need to consider whether you really want to work in Big 4 practice or would you be better off in internal audit somewhere working 9-6?

ferike1

cymbaline wrote: »

Yeah, it's a case of pain now for pleasure later. It'd be known in the industry as well that people in these firms are worked like dogs. If you can stick it out, it stands you in good stead in the future. It's to have the name on your CV.

Ah that there is the carrot and the stick. You are constantly telling yourself that a bit more pain and I will have it better. All you are doing is conning yourself out of your youth and stressing yourself. Not worth it imo.

seamus

cymbaline wrote: »

Yeah, it's a case of pain now for pleasure later.

Pain now for money later, in reality.

The money goes up, but the hours get worse. None of the firms pay overtime at the management level and you're expected to be available on call 24/7.

The only auditors who go home early are the people who have no interest in being promoted and the senior partners who are approaching retirement. Even then, some of them are such intolerable workaholics that they're in the office till 10pm most days and most Saturdays too.

If working 70 hours weeks in the pursuit of money isn't for you, then it might be worth looking at a position outside of the financial services sector - senior company accountants in a finance department often earn very respectable salaries of 80k+, but get to go home when everyone else does.

censuspro

I think the OP made an interesting point about white collar workers and how we work overtime without getting paid. Tradesmen and other types of industries are all paid an hourly rate i.e. they're paid for the time it takes to complete a job.

Cyrus

Time_to_fly_again wrote: »

Op here again - Just to clarify, I was an outside hire i.e. I didn't train in the firm and was already qualified when I joined. I also think there are some misconceptions, one being that accountants who work in Big 4 firms earn mega bucks. With the exception of partner, senior staff don't earn that much and there wouldn't be many people below partner on more than €100k which is a good salary but when you take into account income tax, USC, PRSI is over 50% and the hours put in at evenings and weekends, it doesn't work out as good as it seems.
Starting salary for a qualified accountant is about 40 - 45k.

Anyne at senior manager level and above will gross the guts of 100k, directors 150 with bonuses etc partners start at 250.

Why did you join a big 4, surely you knew what was involved.?

Jim2007

Cyrus wrote: »

Anyne at senior manager level and above will gross the guts of 100k, directors 150 with bonuses etc partners start at 250.

Yes but given as a rate per hour it is not nearly as impressive...

I left one of the big four, after qualifying, over 20 years ago because of the hours and the realisation that a large number of the partners were suffering from heart or stress related illnesses! Of all the people I knew then only two have made partner there and they were already senior managers when I left.

Since then I have been working in mainland Europe, where there is a much better attitude to the work-life cycle. Overtime is not part of the culture and regularly working overtime will have a negative impact on you and your team leader's careers as it suggest one or both of you are not up to the job!!!

censuspro

Jim2007 wrote: »

Yes but given as a rate per hour it is not nearly as impressive...

I left one of the big four, after qualifying, over 20 years ago because of the hours and the realisation that a large number of the partners were suffering from heart or stress related illnesses! Of all the people I knew then only two have made partner there and they were already senior managers when I left.

Since then I have been working in mainland Europe, where there is a much better attitude to the work-life cycle. Overtime is not part of the culture and regularly working overtime will have a negative impact on you and your team leader's careers as it suggest one or both of you are not up to the job!!!

Funny you should say that, someone was recently telling me that it was Lee Iacocca that said if he had staff who were regularly working late then either they were unproductive or they're work load was too much.

cuppatae1

Newaglish wrote: »

45k is a pretty good salary for someone who is only three to four years out of college and is, what, 23 or 24? I've heard people complain about the wages before but there's very few jobs that will increase so rapidly year-on-year for people with relatively limited experience.

I'm not an auditor but outside of busy season I didn't think auditors worked a significant amount of regular overtime?

I dont think only 3 to 4 years out of college describes it accurately really. Its not just a case of go to college and 3 years later you'll be on 45k. After probably 4 years of college, those 3 to 4 years include either 2 or 3 years of studying and the sitting hardest exams anyone could imagine, at the same time as being worked to the bone. And once the exams are passed your worked even harder until the end of your training contract because your now qualified and worth more to them. Only then do you have the ability to command that kind of salary when your either promoted after training contract or move on to another practice or industry.

Re overtime outside of busy season, it all depends on your firm and your clients really. Some firms will be quiet during the summer but others could have big clients with say a June year end, so if this is your client your as busy in the summer months as you are in the winter months.

Cyrus

cuppatae1 wrote: »

I dont think only 3 to 4 years out of college describes it accurately really. Its not just a case of go to college and 3 years later you'll be on 45k. After probably 4 years of college, those 3 to 4 years include either 2 or 3 years of studying and the sitting hardest exams anyone could imagine, at the same time as being worked to the bone. And once the exams are passed your worked even harder until the end of your training contract because your now qualified and worth more to them. Only then do you have the ability to command that kind of salary when your either promoted after training contract or move on to another practice or industry.

Re overtime outside of busy season, it all depends on your firm and your clients really. Some firms will be quiet during the summer but others could have big clients with say a June year end, so if this is your client your as busy in the summer months as you are in the winter months.

If you are in a big 4 firm you get more than enough time off to study for your exams, i had a whole summer for my FAE's which was about twice too much time, not that i was complaining.

Busy season is tough, but as a trainee you get over time and can take that time off at the end of your contract, and at the end of it you are very very employable, having a big 4 firm on your cv opens lots of doors.

yes its hard work, but get used to it, thats what its going to be like, finance careers tend to be like that anyway, want to finish at 5, get a 9-5 job.

Too much moaning here guys, everyone knows whats involved, either get on with it and appreciate the benefits or get a job that suits your outlook on work life balance a bit more

Newaglish

cuppatae1 wrote: »

I dont think only 3 to 4 years out of college describes it accurately really. Its not just a case of go to college and 3 years later you'll be on 45k. After probably 4 years of college, those 3 to 4 years include either 2 or 3 years of studying and the sitting hardest exams anyone could imagine, at the same time as being worked to the bone. And once the exams are passed your worked even harder until the end of your training contract because your now qualified and worth more to them. Only then do you have the ability to command that kind of salary when your either promoted after training contract or move on to another practice or industry.

Re overtime outside of busy season, it all depends on your firm and your clients really. Some firms will be quiet during the summer but others could have big clients with say a June year end, so if this is your client your as busy in the summer months as you are in the winter months.

I think calling them "the hardest exams anyone could imagine" is a bit of an overstatement. You get months of paid leave to study for them, nobody is being "worked to the bone" while studying. They're also pretty straight-forward if you put in the work.

You don't need to be promoted to be on 45k either, that's standard for any qualified accountant at senior level. A manager would be on about 60k.

I think that people expect all the pay and benefits but are shocked when they have to put some work in to get this. The amount of trainee accountants I see who are work-shy with an attitude problem is unbelievable - some of them are so 'entitled'.

At the end of the day it's one of the fastest ways to build up a strong CV and a good salary in 3/4 years, even if you move to a completely different business area it will stand to you.

ferike1

When did you do your FAEs out of curiosity? If you didn't do your CAP2's or FAEs in the new system you can't really comment, if you did, then fair enough, you found them straightforward, good for you.

The arbitrary and subjective nature of the new exams make them quite difficult but not in a technical manner but more in a WTF are the institute thinking manner.

As for work-shy? I guess people have different opinions on this. Putting aside compensation, maybe people would be less work shy if they were occasionally thanked and praised. You stayed late for the last x weeks, thank you for giving up your time to get the job done, rather than it just being expected. Its not much and can make a big difference.

Cyrus

ferike1 wrote: »

When did you do your FAEs out of curiosity? If you didn't do your CAP2's or FAEs in the new system you can't really comment, if you did, then fair enough, you found them straightforward, good for you.

The arbitrary and subjective nature of the new exams make them quite difficult but not in a technical manner but more in a WTF are the institute thinking manner.

As for work-shy? I guess people have different opinions on this. Putting aside compensation, maybe people would be less work shy if they were occasionally thanked and praised. You stayed late for the last x weeks, thank you for giving up your time to get the job done, rather than it just being expected. Its not much and can make a big difference.

Current students in thinking older exams were easier than the ones that they do shocker :rolleyes:

ferike1

Yeah because that 35% pass rate for CAP2s in 2010 indicate a really easy level of exam

Fell from 70% in the old system.

Oh yeah and pass by compensation was taken out too.

Here is a sum up of the recent FAE results too

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75534900

Cyrus

ferike1 wrote: »

Yeah because that 35% pass rate for CAP2s in 2010 indicate a really easy level of exam

Fell from 70% in the old system.

Oh yeah and pass by compensation was taken out too.

Here is a sum up of the recent FAE results too

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75534900

maybe we were smarter

i did the MAcc in smurfit, i spose that was easier 5 years ago aswell

ferike1

Maybe

But the failings of one firm to spot another $800m hole in Quinn and another giving Anglo a clean bill of health seem to indicate the accountants training/working before my lot aren't as smart as they think

Newaglish

To be fair, I did the exams on the old system in 2008 I think. The majority of the difference between pass rates now and pass rates back then is due to the removal of compensation, but then I never thought people passing by compensation should pass to begin with. Perhaps that's a little harsh but I always felt that if you didn't know at least half of the course material, you didn't know enough. There's just so much time to study for them.

Not sure what to say in regard to getting proper thanks for your work. That's really down to your individual manager. I appreciate it can be different for different people though and I've certainly been in unpleasant work situations before.

Cyrus

I would echo that, yes pass rates have fallen, i did mine in 2005, so i was in a class where 81% passed, mine was also the first year where we got our results, looking at them id imagine i would have been in the 55% that passed in 2011 aswell, but then i had a whole summer off to study and i spent some time actually studying.

As regards not getting thanks for staying late etc, if you think that having a dick for a boss is the preserve of Big 4 accountancy firms, you have a lot of pain coming to you.

There are nice managers and awful managers in every company from semi states to goldman sachs, i worked for some decent people when i trained, and i cant ever say that i disliked it. Sure the work was tough but there was a great bunch and we had great crack too. That said i left audit once my contract ended as i knew it was a career for me, but i definately look back fondly on my training.

Also having a big 4 and a good reference from them will do a lot for you in the first 3-5 years after you leave.

Minevah

From reading this thread,working late seems to be the norm in Big 4 firms for trainees...is this also the case for other staff who work there i.e. admin staff?

The Big Red Button

Minevah wrote: »

From reading this thread,working late seems to be the norm in Big 4 firms for trainees...is this also the case for other staff who work there i.e. admin staff?

Nope, admin staff don't usually work overtime, as far as I know!

Cyrus

chatterpillar wrote: »

Nope, admin staff don't usually work overtime, as far as I know!

i wouldnt say that, ive seen accounts typists have to stay late plenty

depends on what you are doing

Newaglish

It may happen at year-end or in rare cases but I haven't come across any of the admin staff working overtime.

krd

Time_to_fly_again wrote: »

Op here again - Just to clarify, I was an outside hire i.e. I didn't train in the firm and was already qualified when I joined. I also think there are some misconceptions, one being that accountants who work in Big 4 firms earn mega bucks.

I've heard several stories from very reliable sources that the big four are paying their junior staff peanuts.

This whole business of working late (even when there's nothing to do and no deadline approaching) is to put in "face time". It's this masochistic culture of just being around for the sake of being around.

With the exception of partner, senior staff don't earn that much and there wouldn't be many people below partner on more than €100k which is a good salary but when you take into account income tax, USC, PRSI is over 50% and the hours put in at evenings and weekends, it doesn't work out as good as it seems.

With a "face time" culture, you'll usually have a "winner takes all" culture along side it. But I've even heard the partners don't go wild rewarding themselves either - accountants can be skin flints even with themselves.

Starting salary for a qualified accountant is about 40 - 45k.x

If you're on 40 - 45k in a big four, you could be on more money then some of the people you're working with, who've been there longer and have more experience than you.

Even if you put in the "face time" it may do you no good (as everyone else is doing it - you can't win a masochism arms race).

If you look around - and have a good CV and the big four can look good - you may be able to get a better paying job, where the hours are really good (where they even let you work at home in your pyjamas. )

Cyrus

krd wrote: »

I've heard several stories from very reliable sources that the big four are paying their junior staff peanuts.

This whole business of working late (even when there's nothing to do and no deadline approaching) is to put in "face time". It's this masochistic culture of just being around for the sake of being around.



With a "face time" culture, you'll usually have a "winner takes all" culture along side it. But I've even heard the partners don't go wild rewarding themselves either - accountants can be skin flints even with themselves.



If you're on 40 - 45k in a big four, you could be on more money then some of the people you're working with, who've been there longer and have more experience than you.

Even if you put in the "face time" it may do you no good (as everyone else is doing it - you can't win a masochism arms race).

If you look around - and have a good CV and the big four can look good - you may be able to get a better paying job, where the hours are really good (where they even let you work at home in your pyjamas. )

Sorry no offence, but you appear to have no idea what you are talking about. The way it works in a big 4, you start on 20-22k and end up on 40-45k 3-3.5 years later depending on what exams you have to do and when and whether you have a masters in accountancy or not. Below manager level you also get paid for your overtime.

There arent people with more experience who have been there longer earning less.

Face time may be an issue, in general people are there becuase they are busy and havent enough time from 9-5 to get all their work done, in the summer it tends to be less like that (depending on what clients you have). For example deloitte have a shorter working week in the summer, finishing at 2 where possible on a friday, and a longer week in winter.

A starting partner in a big 4 is at 250k, and it only goes one way as their seniority increases and they get a piece of the equity.

Im not quite sure where your info comes from?