Big 4 Firm - Working Late

ferike1

You don't get paid for your overtime below manager level. EY don't even get time in leiu.

Face time is a big issue. I have heard countless times of people sitting around til 8-11 at a clients site because other team memembers were there working. Crazy!

The Big Red Button

ferike1 wrote: »

You don't get paid for your overtime below manager level. EY don't even get time in leiu.

Managers generally don't get paid for overtime either. Below manager level, you generally get time in lieu (E&Y, as mentioned, being the exception.)

ferike1 wrote: »

Face time is a big issue. I have heard countless times of people sitting around til 8-11 at a clients site because other team memembers were there working. Crazy!

I haven't experienced this myself.

The seniors/managers are on a budget for the job - why would they be happy to approve timesheets if they're aware the team members are doing nothing? In my experience, yeah overtime is expected, but you also need to be able to account for that overtime.

Cyrus

ferike1 wrote: »

You don't get paid for your overtime below manager level. EY don't even get time in leiu.

Face time is a big issue. I have heard countless times of people sitting around til 8-11 at a clients site because other team memembers were there working. Crazy!

E&Y is one exception then, in the other 3 you do, and time in lieu is the same as getting paid for it in effect.

Face time isnt a big issue, or it wasnt when i worked in one, i was busy thats why i stayed, if i wasnt i went home at 5.30/6

statss

what about the medium sized firms.....similar issue or is there more of a work life balance?

Chazz Michael Michaels

I simply don't understand why people work in jobs like this, unless they have no alternative. Life is more valuable than a big salary.

seamus

chatterpillar wrote: »

Nope, admin staff don't usually work overtime, as far as I know!

Depends on the type of admin staff.

In some cases a very experienced secretary will have a secretarial title and position but basically be an office manager for the entire department, in many cases with as much or even more authority than some of the managerial staff. These guys will often work late hours too, but will accrue overtime because they're not managers.

ferike1 wrote: »

You don't get paid for your overtime below manager level. EY don't even get time in leiu.

There are some exceptions to this rule, but in general client-facing staff don't get paid overtime, only time in lieu. At least one of the big 4 pays out unused overtime when you change from contract to permanent or when you leave.

ferike1

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

I simply don't understand why people work in jobs like this, unless they have no alternative. Life is more valuable than a big salary.

Salary isn't even that big

Yeah for me. No alternative atm, so just sucking it up and sticking it out. When my contract is up I will be gone in a shot:pac:

Mossess

OP all you need is a smile and gonads of steel. At 5 or 5.30 pack-up and go. Make no apology or excuses. Make sure all your work is done though. You will get no thanks for following the crowd. So, leave when the bell goes, so to speak. If you think you will be called in on it make sure you’re in a position to defend your work. If it’s just your co-workers commenting on it don’t worry, they will soon follow.

Cyrus

ferike1 wrote: »

Salary isn't even that big

Yeah for me. No alternative atm, so just sucking it up and sticking it out. When my contract is up I will be gone in a shot:pac:

most jobs in finance in industry are pretty similar in terms of OT expectations

ferike1

I just don't feel challenged at all in audit. It is not a challenging job. It is boring and tedious. Long working hours =/= mentally challenging or stimulating. I don't mind working hard at something I enjoy. Surely one can relate to that?

Cyrus

ferike1 wrote: »

I just don't feel challenged at all in audit. It is not a challenging job. It is boring and tedious. Long working hours =/= mentally challenging or stimulating. I don't mind working hard at something I enjoy. Surely one can relate to that?

of course, but you do learn different skills which will stand to you incl:

Managing multiple assignments
Work load priority
Managing different stakeholders
Client relationships
Staff management
Coaching junior staff
Attention to detail
Practical application of accounting standards

etc etc

RATM

I can see where the OP is coming on this as I am aware of a friend doing a legal internship at one of the big 5 law firms at the moment. The days of getting an apprenticeship in law straight out of Blackhall Place seem to be in the past- now a lot of legal firms are insisting that you have to intern with them first from where you *might* be offered an apprenticeship. The person I know worked 8am till 9-10pm most nights in their litigation department for 4 months and all they got out of it was that she is now on the list for an apprenticeship in 2014 which she *might* be offered.

The thing about these big firms is that you have to know your role in there. Either you accept the long hours as a balance to the potential for high wages down the road or else you don't and instead go working for small & medium sized firms. Before people take jobs anywhere they should check out the culture of the company fully to see if it suits them. For instance Google have some of the best perks on the market but the culture is such that you are expected to stay there to all hours. If you've a young family then that is unlikely to suit and so you should avoid working for them, despite their excellent perks.

Personally I think that before working for Big 4/5 firms and losing most of your 20's to late week nights people have to assess themselves and ask whether or not they are good enough to make it to a partner level. It should be a 10-12 year plan. You've got to look inside yourself and ask if you've got what it takes within you, by that I mean managerial skills, natural leadership skills and probably above all else, political skills.

Also don't forget that company structures are like pyrmiads- the higher you go the less opportunity for promotion and the more competition to get it too- all these factors should have a bearing when considering if working every night to 9 or 10pm is going to be worth it in the end.

So instead of working like a dog for 5-8 years and losing all your weekday evenings and then coming to the realisation that you didn't network enough with senior managers or your face doesn't fit for promotion, etc you should assess yourself and wheather you'd flourish in that environment before you enter it. Because if there is one partner for every 30 junior accountant then you have to beat another 29 people to get to that position. That isn't impossible but I'm just pointing out that the firms use the partner position and its salary as a kind of carrot for working for free overtime but the reality is that 30 people want that carrot but 29 will end up disappointed

kippy

micosoft wrote: »

You answered your own question? For the potential rewards. You work for the big 4 because you are ambitious and willing to put in the work with the expectation that you will make partner or get a senior role in a company earning megabucks. Perhaps you need to rethink your career if this is not to your liking. Plenty of small sleepy bookkeeping practices where you can knock off at 5.....

Don't be fooled lads,
for every 1 guy person gets the rewards at the end of years of giving their time for nothing, there are tens and maybe hundreds more who get very little extra, just the realisation that work has taken up too much of their time and that they were never gonna get the "promotions" anyway, for various reasons, usually always outside of their control.
It's how a lot of these companies became the big four.
Hiring people on relatively low money to do the donkey work and giving them the somewhat unreachable objective of working well outside a standard working day for no guarenteed gain at the end of it all.
Fair play to those who want to do it and have the ambition to earn the cash at some point in their career.
But the "sleepy" 9-5 bookkeeping firm probably gives you far more work satisfaction and a hell of a lot better work/life balance.

Cyrus

kippy wrote: »

Don't be fooled lads,
for every 1 guy person gets the rewards at the end of years of giving their time for nothing, there are tens and maybe hundreds more who get very little extra, just the realisation that work has taken up too much of their time and that they were never gonna get the "promotions" anyway, for various reasons, usually always outside of their control.
It's how a lot of these companies became the big four.
Hiring people on relatively low money to do the donkey work and giving them the somewhat unreachable objective of working well outside a standard working day for no guarenteed gain at the end of it all.
Fair play to those who want to do it and have the ambition to earn the cash at some point in their career.
But the "sleepy" 9-5 bookkeeping firm probably gives you far more work satisfaction and a hell of a lot better work/life balance.

Disagree,

anyone any good will generally get to director level within 7 or 8 years of qualifying, its much harder make partner granted.

You will make good money, but you will work hard for it, however you earn substantially more than you will in a small 2-5 partner firm, and your cv will be better suited to going into a larger company aswell

Jim2007

Cyrus wrote: »

You will make good money, but you will work hard for it, however you earn substantially more than you will in a small 2-5 partner firm, and your cv will be better suited to going into a larger company aswell

Well if you take into account all the overtime you put in the money is not actually that good... and if you consider all you have missed out on, it might even be expensive!

Jim2007

Mossess wrote: »

OP all you need is a smile and gonads of steel. At 5 or 5.30 pack-up and go. Make no apology or excuses. Make sure all your work is done though. You will get no thanks for following the crowd. So, leave when the bell goes, so to speak. If you think you will be called in on it make sure you’re in a position to defend your work. If it’s just your co-workers commenting on it don’t worry, they will soon follow.

When it comes to overtime I simply state that it is not my policy to work unpaid overtime and leave them hanging... one of two things will then happen, either they will offer to pay me or they will ask someone else to do it....

Cyrus

Jim2007 wrote: »

Cyrus wrote: »

You will make good money, but you will work hard for it, however you earn substantially more than you will in a small 2-5 partner firm, and your cv will be better suited to going into a larger company aswell

Well if you take into account all the overtime you put in the money is not actually that good... and if you consider all you have missed out on, it might even be expensive!

most jobs in the private sector with responsibility or managenent will require unpaid overtime and your contract will state as much

Cyrus

Jim2007 wrote: »

Mossess wrote: »

OP all you need is a smile and gonads of steel. At 5 or 5.30 pack-up and go. Make no apology or excuses. Make sure all your work is done though. You will get no thanks for following the crowd. So, leave when the bell goes, so to speak. If you think you will be called in on it make sure you’re in a position to defend your work. If it’s just your co-workers commenting on it don’t worry, they will soon follow.

When it comes to overtime I simply state that it is not my policy to work unpaid overtime and leave them hanging... one of two things will then happen, either they will offer to pay me or they will ask someone else to do it....

where do you work?

kippy

Cyrus wrote: »

Disagree,

anyone any good will generally get to director level within 7 or 8 years of qualifying, its much harder make partner granted.

You will make good money, but you will work hard for it, however you earn substantially more than you will in a small 2-5 partner firm, and your cv will be better suited to going into a larger company aswell

7 or 8 years of working 7-7 or later or over weekends, while in the prime of your life and many more years afterwards of doing the same and for what?
There aren't limitless director and partner level roles in these organisations, not everyone will get into them.

I'm just making the point that working the hours for nothing guarantee nothing. As I said, fair play to those that make it, they've far different life choices than I have.

Jim2007

Cyrus wrote: »

most jobs in the private sector with responsibility or managenent will require unpaid overtime and your contract will state as much

Not in mainland Europe they don't! Over the past 25 years I've worked for 8 European multinationals at both professional and managerial levels and in all cases over time was the exception, not the rule. In an average year I might clock up say 20 hours OT and that is either paid or compensated at 120% or 150% depending on the time of the day.

Jim2007

Cyrus wrote: »

where do you work?

Switzerland.

A few years ago we had a new American colleague join us from the SEC in New Year and one of the big differences she found was:
- No overtime
- No phone calls at the weekend
- Uninterrupted holidays

It's an attitude thing, here overtime is seen as a negative thing:
- If you regularly work OT, it suggests that you are not up to the position
- As a team lead, if your team often clocks OT, it suggests that there is a failure in the management of the team
- Contacting work colleagues outside of work hours is just not done, it suggests a failed to provide adequate cover

The French/Swiss/Germans/Austrians I work with, work hard during office hours, but don't expect them to work OT without pay, it just will not happen.

ferike1

When I qualify I'll send you my CV

Cyrus

Jim2007 wrote: »

Switzerland.

A few years ago we had a new American colleague join us from the SEC in New Year and one of the big differences she found was:
- No overtime
- No phone calls at the weekend
- Uninterrupted holidays

It's an attitude thing, here overtime is seen as a negative thing:
- If you regularly work OT, it suggests that you are not up to the position
- As a team lead, if your team often clocks OT, it suggests that there is a failure in the management of the team
- Contacting work colleagues outside of work hours is just not done, it suggests a failed to provide adequate cover

The French/Swiss/Germans/Austrians I work with, work hard during office hours, but don't expect them to work OT without pay, it just will not happen.

sounds good

but not really applicable here

MagicMarker

Work to live, not live to work.

I'd rather be earning 25k per year and leave the office at 5pm, than earn 50k per year and leave at 9pm.

krd

Jim2007 wrote: »

Switzerland.

A few years ago we had a new American colleague join us from the SEC in New Year and one of the big differences she found was:
- No overtime
- No phone calls at the weekend
- Uninterrupted holidays

The out of hours phone calls, and the holiday interruptions. Most of it is just a masochism arms race. But once it becomes expected, it's expected.

I've heard it's bad in England too. I was reading something written by a guy who was a manager in England. If he didn't get an interruption over the weekend he'd have an anxiety attack - he'd think that they were about to fire him. The interruptions were just interruptions for the sake of interruptions.

A friend was working for a company in Dublin, I won't name, but his boss would approach him on Friday, giving him work to take home, to do in his "free time". But it was two full days worth of work. There was just a presumption that he should do a full two days of work over the weekend.

autumnbelle

Is it like this outside big 4 too? as regards to overtime

ferike1

Yeah that's the thing. Its one thing to work overtime and its another thing to just expect it as it is something normal.

autumnbelle

ferike1 wrote: »

Yeah that's the thing. Its one thing to work overtime and its another thing to just expect it as it is something normal.

Do ypu do much overtime? would it be expected that someone who relys on bus transport home or lifts stay late everyday

Cyrus

autumnbelle wrote: »

Do ypu do much overtime? would it be expected that someone who relys on bus transport home or lifts stay late everyday

to be fair most managers wont ask or care about this type of thing, most people will rely on public transport in the dublin firms as there isnt parking for most

Cyrus

MagicMarker wrote: »

Work to live, not live to work.

I'd rather be earning 25k per year and leave the office at 5pm, than earn 50k per year and leave at 9pm.

theres a balance alright, totally agree, but there is a big difference between earning 25 and 50 k