10 shot dead at Batman showing in Denver

Suryavarman

token101 wrote: »

Can you name one mass shooting incident like this in London? Berlin? They're all big cities like the ones in the states?

They didn't occur in London or Berlin but the Cumbria shootings & the Erfurt massacre are similar incidents.

Mickeroo

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

And you are telling me the above scenario would be worse than what happened, complete unopposed shooting into the crowd and 50 people shot? Any kind of resistance would have reduced the number of casualties, and glib sarcastic replies don't change that.

Neither of us can know that tbh, and I wasn't being sarcastic or glib.

MadYaker

How many more times does this have to happen before Americans realise that guns for anybody that wants them is not a good idea?

MadYaker

Blay wrote: »

Not a hope in hell that there will be any changes to firearms legislation in the US after this, it would be political suicide for Obama or any future president to touch the second amendment. People hold their constitutional rights to firearms incredibly seriously there.

True but I think incidents like this are becoming more frequent and I think in a few years time there will be some changes to the second amendment.

Luno

I think everyone should have a read of this.

Witcher

MadYaker wrote: »

True but I think incidents like this are becoming more frequent and I think in a few years time there will be some changes to the second amendment.

It would be incredibly difficult, from reading US shooting forums and watching shooting Youtube channels people over there are buying up firearms and ammunition like never before, add that to all those already in civilian hands. To try and impose stricter laws on firearms possession such as licencing in that climate would mean all those already out there would have to be grandfathered and kept unlicenced.

If they were to try and take them back I could only imagine the trouble that would erupt. I'm a shooter myself and when you explain our laws to Americans they just cannot fathom it, it is just beyond belief for them that one would need a licence, have to wait 3 months for it and be at the whim of your local Gardai. It's part of their culture and identity to own firearms. Someday I can see it being tackled but the problem will only be even bigger then.

old hippy

Suryavarman wrote: »

They didn't occur in London or Berlin but the Cumbria shootings & the Erfurt massacre are similar incidents.

Hmmm. It's more a home grown terrorism thingy but we did have David Copeland causing chaos and trying to stir up hatreds but I guess that had a more "political" bent to it....

old hippy

PrincessLola wrote: »

The thing is, I'm usually a massive bleeding heart liberal on most issues (unemployment, racism, feminism, welfare). But when I hear a baby got shot at at point blank range and a twelve year old was killed I just went into a mini-meltdown

I guess that makes me the true bleeding heart heh..

Those dry cleaning bills must add up, eh?

notnumber

Luno wrote: »

I think everyone should have a read of this.

everyone cant login to fc

old hippy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

That could be access to guns, though.

However, in the Psychopath Test there was a telling exchange with a psychologist in Scotland.

q: How many Psychopath are there in scottish Jails?
a: None, they are all in Jail in London - where the rate of incarcarated Psychopaths is high.

Psychopaths are attracted to bright lights and big cities, the kind of thing that drove America forward - the entrepreneurship and drive of the self selecting groups who went there - may have meant it attracted more psychos. Psychopathy is not a trivial inheritance issue, only 1 % of the population is at any one time, but if the ratio is higher in a part of the world it probably stays higher.

Dunblane being an exception? Plus massacres in China, I don't think all the school killings have taken place in a city?

Duggys Housemate

old hippy wrote: »

Dunblane being an exception? Plus massacres in China, I don't think all the school killings have taken place in a city?

true, most do.

Icepick

"When you’re born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you’re born in America, you get a front row seat.". - George Carlin

abouttobebanned

For those with no access to FB

Theater 8
I woke up on the morning of July 19th with an excited smile. I was going to see the new Batman movie, The Dark Knight Rises. I woke with Noemi next to me, and immediately began searching through our clothes for our Batman t-shirts. We were getting each other amped up for hours, reading Batman comics, watching the trailers – even playing Batman video games. Our excitement could no longer be contained, so we took our pre-printed tickets and left for Century 16 six hours before the show would begin. As we drove we talked of the scenes from the trailers and tried to plot bust the final film before we would see it. We walked through the doors smiling wide, looking at all of the people bearing the black and yellow symbol of The Dark Knight across their chests. We fiddled with a machine scanning our tickets unsuccessfully for several minutes before finally getting help from a cashier. As soon as our tickets came we walked in disbelief over to where they’d roped off an area for people to sit and wait, excited as children on Christmas morning. We were finally going to see our hero rise for the final time. I frantically kept checking my ticket stub, fearing it would disappear if I didn’t check that it was in my pocket every few seconds. I couldn’t stop smiling as I looked at it. Dark Knight Rises showed in bold letters across the top with House 8 directly below. We purchased our tickets at 7:14, and waited impatiently with wonderful people in line. We were the third and fourth people there in line, and couldn’t be happier. Shortly after we arrived we met a very nice and VERY excited guy (we later learned his name is Alex), and we talked for a good two hours. Everyone was friendly, excited… and smiling. We were counting down the minutes to when we’d finally see our hero again. To our surprise the doors to the theater opened around 9:35, and I was ushering Noemi to grab her purse and hurry behind me so we could get our usual seats. We like being at the very center of the middle row – perfect movie seats in my opinion. As we parted ways from our new friend from the line, he called, “see you after the movie!”
As usual the trailers began, and we cheered as trailers for The Hobbit, and Man of Steel played out on the screen. Excitement rippled through the theater as usual quiet commentary echoed around the room of mixed opinions. Everyone’s cheers and whoops fell into dead silence as the screen showed Commissioner Gordon giving his piece at Harvey Dent’s funeral. From that moment on the room was silent, and enjoying the show. Our excitement grew steadily as new characters were introduced, and the story began to unfold. We were taken to the story of a cop, and into the middle of a harsh action packed gun battle. Suddenly it was as though the movie was no longer a movie, the chaos on the screen had manifested itself into the very room. At first the sounds of what I thought to be cheap fire crackers didn’t phase me. Smoke billowed around the right side of the theater where people had previously been entering. This still didn’t phase me. I was determined to ignore the asshole interrupting my film, I wasn’t going to let fire crackers ruin my night. Noemi gripped my arm, worried, looking closer. Suddenly I snapped back to reality. I felt pieces of grit hit my face and arms. A series of further pops echoed with the movie’s scene of grim gun fire, and more “smoke” billowed around the right side of the room. It didn’t occur to me until later that it was not smoke, or at least not just smoke. It was debris showering into the room from bullets coming through the walls. Our shared wall with theater 9. Screams could be heard over the roar of the movie. I took Noemi by the hand and led her down the isle with everyone else trying to get out. Some stayed in their seats in disbelief, even defiant – not willing to leave their seats. A man in a white shirt rushed into the room as the fire alarms went off, “don’t exit through the front, there’s a man out there shooting people.” The only light in the room came from the big screen, showing enough in the dim light to send my body shaking with fear. As the sounds of groans and moans of pain became more coherent around us we realized people were injured. Even if we couldn’t spot them in the darkness, we could hear them. The shooting continued, barely audible over more screams. Finally, as though a switch of understanding struck me along with everyone else we began rushing back up the stairs towards the exits above at the top level – not the ones we came through. Noemi and I rushed out onto the bright and loud balcony level overlooking the main lobby. We were in the middle of what seemed like a war. Police officers with shot guns and pistols rushed below and out of sight while others guarded the stairs up to our level, ordering us to get down behind the wall. People rushed out through the front doors holding wounds, or doubled over in agony. I grabbed Noemi and pulled her behind me down the stairs, reassuring her as best I could. She pushed me away, yelling for me to run, but I grabbed her anyway and stayed with her on our dreamlike way out the front doors, completely in disbelief, fearing a bullet could tear it’s way through us at any given second. I don’t remember seeing many of the wounded, we got out quickly in the chaos of it all. The red and blue lights were as welcome as the Bat signal in the sky then, and I knew we were going to be okay. We moved well beyond the line of cop cars, knowing it should be safe. I walked up to a young boy, maybe my sister’s age with blood caked over his hands. I asked if he was okay, if he was hurt… It wasn’t his blood. He helped one of the wounded out of the building, and explained that the man had been hit pretty bad through one of his legs. The boy was holding up better than I was, he said, “I’m angry more than anything else, who does this? Who would do something like this?”
I shook my head, unable to reply. Childish guilt and shame welled up inside of me. I wanted to go back, to help. I looked at Noemi and shook off the ridiculous feeling. There was nothing I could have done. I took her in my arms and made phone calls to family letting them know what had happened, and that we were okay. Rumors of a death passed from person to person. My world was shattered. I had to get her out of there. Without hesitation she led me back to the car, and I drove us out of the parking lot behind a line of cars trying to escape the massacre. Sirens cut through the air as countless police cars and ambulances rushed past us. The fear deepened as I saw this. I wanted answers. How many people were injured? How many had been killed? Did I know any of them? I still don’t know if I do know any of them. I am shaking as I type my story now, recalling what happened. 9 news plays the details as I type now. Twelve dead, around fifty wounded. It is nearly ten o’clock in the morning. Ten bodies still remain inside of the theater. If we hadn’t purchased our tickets in advance, or arrived for good seats five hours before the movie… would we have been in the seats where people were being hit with bullets and debris from the walls? I don’t know. What if we’d been in theater 9 instead of 8? Would I be alive to tell you my story? I don’t know. I never saw the man who shot up theater 9. I heard he was dressed in black, and wore a gas mask as he used a rifle and two pistols on helpless innocent people. Men, women, children. Children. Cute kids dressed up as the caped crusader or the infamous back breaking Bane. There is no justice that can be brought to James Holmes. He deserves a fate worse than the most agonizing death can offer. I want to see him burn alive, I want to hear him scream for what he has done. I will never forget what I witnessed just ten hours ago. Is it wrong to feel guilty for getting away unscathed? If I could trade places with any of the twelve, I would in a heartbeat. None of them deserved this. We live in a world plagued by villains. Batman was everywhere that night, defeated. Our heroes are the brave officers offering their lives on the line to protect us. They arrived to save the day, and got Holmes when he was at his car (I assume he was gathering more supplies to continue the slaughter). Noemi and I gave our statements and left just before rumors of bombs in the building began circulating. I am writing this now because my perspective needs to be shared. A friend of mine sent me a message on Facebook saying, “write, while it’s still fresh in your mind.” I’m glad he told me to, it all seems like broken fragments of a nightmare now. Telling this to you all now has helped me grasp what has happened, and I hope it will help you gain some idea of what we went through. I never would have thought I would be caught in the middle of something like this. I never would have thought I would see something like this. In 1999 I marched with hundreds in memory of the lives lost at Columbine. I watched the news at ten years old as the twin towers fell. I watched the news as the killer of Virginia Tech led his own meaningless rampage. Dark days are not knew to me, I’ve seen the chaos, the bodies, the meaningless death… but I have never been one of the people in the thick of it. All I can say now is that I am sorry for the families and friends who lost loved ones, I am sorry for those who are in critical condition at this very moment hanging on. I am sending all of my hope and love out to you all. Hang on. Fight. I thought I was going to lose the person I love most in this world last night. I have never been that scared in my life. I was one of the few who bitterly watched the sun rise this morning… such beauty seems out of place mere hours after something so horrible. I urge you all to open your hearts and minds to each other. Be good to each other. Be respectful, and help each other. Don't let these events pass into the shadows of history, only so we can repeat them and relive them over and over again.

Share
25 people like this.
90 shares
Rhonda Howard Very incredible, so glad that you wrote this all down to share with us. I am so relieved that you are safe.
3 hours ago · 1
Diamanda Kinsella-Morgan Just shared this. I think others should read it.
2 hours ago · 1
Kez Wycked Josh, I haven't your skill with words to express how this touched me, other than to say their are tears falling in my lap and I am so very very very glad that you and Noemi had this cup pass you by. May I share this? Others should see.
2 hours ago · Edited · 1
Josh Winn I want every living soul to know what we all went through... I wasn't in theater 9... I missed the worst of it, luckily. Share it with everyone, I wrote it so people could get the best idea possible from my perspective.
2 hours ago · 2
Jodi Winn-Gordon I have never seen a more beautiful sunrise than the one we saw this morning . You were standing next to me, safe and well. Whatever else comes that is all that matters. This will heal. I am fiercely, furiously proud of you my son.
2 hours ago via Mobile · 4
Kyle Robinson Damn dude..
2 hours ago
Christina Fischer ‎:'(
2 hours ago via Mobile
Peggy Selder WOW! Thanks for sharing and I pray we can ALL learn to love one another and be kind and respectful also!
2 hours ago
Madeline Davies Thank god you both are okay, that's terrifying--beautifully written. You did the right thing rushing out of there. Hope you stay well and I miss you a bunch.
2 hours ago · 1
Noemi Ureña We talked about history before the movie....and we became part of it....
about an hour ago
Nicole Bizzarro A powerful piece that I am so glad you wrote and shared. Thank you for being you, Josh.
about an hour ago · 1
Sheniqua Hammonds I'm so glad you guys got out okay, and thanks for sharing that grim experience with us.
59 minutes ago via Mobile · 1
Canyon Boak Im glad you wrote this. I read it, and it carries so much emotional weight, because its no longer just a horrific tale that I was told, I am shown it through a face that I know. The emotion is shared. Im glad you two made it out safe...
40 minutes ago · 3
Dennis Martinez wow that was wonderful.. Brought tears to my eyes ... Let me know if there is anything Leo and I can do for you.. We love you guys like you're family.
18 minutes ago

arse..biscuits

stevenmu wrote: »

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Colorado 117 murders, 65 by firearms.

Alabama 199 murders, 135 by firearms

South Carolina 280 murders, 207 by firearms

Minnesota 91 murders, 53 by firearms

Wisconsin 157 murders, 97 by firearms

---

Norway 31 murders, 9 by firearms

You can look at those statistics another way too:

Colorado 117 murders, 52 without firearms.

Alabama 199 murders, 64 without firearms

South Carolina 280 murders, 73 without firearms

Minnesota 91 murders, 38 without firearms

Wisconsin 157 murders, 60 without firearms

---

Norway 31 murders, 22 without firearms



It's clear that the states listed have higher murder rates than Norway even when fire arms are taken out of the equation. Despite all of the really wonderful things about America and Americans, there seems to be a serious problem with violence and murder. Sure a lot of the murders are firearms related, but if you look at how many are not firearm related, despite the easy availability of firearms, can you really say that taking the firearms away is going to prevent the murders?

If I have to hit a nail into a piece of timber, I'm clearly going to reach for a hammer and not a screwdriver, but there has been times when I didn't have a hammer, so I got the handle of the screwdriver and bet the nail in all the same.

There's clearly a much deeper problem than just the availability of guns, and in order to identify and solve it people need to stop scapegoating and face the real issues.

But I bet you cant get the nail in using a screwdriver? You need the correct tool. Likewise, heading out to kill a load of people with a hurley isnt going to be a massacre.

Red Hand

What about those with no access to paragraphs?

Luno

Red Hand wrote: »

What about those with no access to paragraphs?

Was that really necessary?

Shreddingblood

Red Hand wrote: »

What about those with no access to paragraphs?

I laughed

Red Hand

Luno wrote: »

Was that really necessary?

He can edit it so that it is readable. I don't think many people are going to read a block of text no matter what the subject.

df1985

No one should have the "right" to own a gun. It should be for few and very far between and there'd need to be a good reason behind someone being granted a license.

Of course theres too much money in weapons to change it though....

MadsL

Firstly a moment for the victims here. A real tragedy for all concerned, thoughts with the family.

Secondly the amount of knee jerk reactions about Americans and guns here is shocking. Please do some research before spouting nonsense about American gun law.

Deleted User wrote: »

If anyone wants to start about gun-control answer me this; if there'd been a few dozen of the cinema-goers armed would the scumbag have killed and injured as many people? I'm gonna take a guess that the cinema (assuming the area it was in has liberal carrying laws) was "gun-free", as are most places where such shootings happen.

Correct. Open carry (gun on hip) is legal in Colorado, some guys attending a 2nd Amendment banquet decided to go see a movie after the banquet. They didn't both putting on their jackets and were told "no guns". Story here.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/robert-farago/cinemark-theaters-no-legal-firearms-allowed/
Cinemark have a no guns policy.

Deleted User wrote: »

He was wearing some kind of body armour. The cinema was dark and filled with smoke. Many people reportedly had a delayed reaction, they initially thought it was a stunt or prank. Once people realised what was happening, there was chaos, with people running in front of each other.

So it is naive to think that a load of heros with guns would have reduced the death toll. If anything it may have increased it. A bunch of wannabe Rambos hopped up on fear and adrenalin getting into a gunfight in a crowded cinema is not the solution.

Roughly 1.2% of the US population have a Concealed Carry permit, in Colorado there are 139560 CCWs licences. Almost 3%. I think it would be interesting to know how many cinema patrons left their gun at home or in the vehicle. 3% of a sellout showing would mean some 36 CCW holders on average were present at the showing. Let's say half of them panic. That leaves 18 weapon holders able to respond, personally I think one of them would have made that crucial headshot, especially as reports state a number of ex-military among the wounded.

seamus wrote: »

When you open fire with an automatic weapon on a tightly gathered crowd in a confined space, then you are going to cause multiple injuries and fatalities in a matter of seconds. Nobody would have had time to react.

Full-auto is not legal in the US for CCW or other carry. No-one with a CCW is going to "light up' the room on full auto - the legal consequences would be hell to pay. CCW is a licence to carry a weapon not to shoot people.

By the way, reports say the nutjob was carrying an AR-15, a 0.22 "tactical" rifle. 0.22 rounds are tiny - don't assume that this was a full-auto military weapon like you see in the movies.

seamus wrote: »

Even if most people were carrying guns, their first instinct is to drop and hide and escape. Very few people without training would have the presence of mind or the balls to take their weapon out and try to return fire.
Anyone who did would likely be very panicky and confused and would shoot multiple targets - i.e. anything that moved and anything that appears to be carrying a gun.

CCW training covers situations like this. It is drilled into you with any firearms training to be sure of your target and what is beyond it. Again, as a CCW you have to legally explain your actions. The vast majority of CCWs load hollow-points to ensure the round does not through-and-through and hit a second person.

seamus wrote: »

A single trained person with a pistol would be a lot more effective than an entire room full of unprepared civilians carrying Uzis.

Uzis? Let's not let movie nonsense confuse the issue. CCW carry would most likely be .380 ACP, 9mm and the odd .40 semi-auto pistols or revolvers.

seamus wrote: »

If a few dozen of the cinema goers were carrying weapons, most likely a lot more people would be dead and the police would be trying to deal with multiple shooters on the run as people panic when they realise that they've shot and killed other innocent people.

Possibly. Equally, a LEO, ex-military or well-trained citizen could have shot this guy dead once he started shooting. The setting (within a movie - publicity stunt?) probably helped the shooter, but possibly not banning guns from the cinema would have prevented this happening with the number of fatalities.

seamus wrote: »

Can you back that up?

Considering that as it stands most states allow people to purchase a weapon with nothing more than a background check, I would be surprised if most gun owners in the US would be "well trained" to fire a weapon in a combat situation.

I would hope that most gun-owners take the time to learn how to use it properly. Given the amount of defensive classes i see going on at local ranges I think most owners do take the time to learn.

seamus wrote: »

Knowing how to fire a gun at targets or wild animals is one thing. Firing a weapon in combat situations where your life is at risk and every bullet you fire is potentially fatal, is a whole other scenario.

I agree, however some 2.3 million troops in the US served in Iraq and Afghanistan. In this situation any highly-trained combat veterans in the audience had their "tools" locked in the truck.

Bacchus wrote: »

Not that I'm pretending I've first hand experience of this but I don't think you are required to have any training in the States to carry a gun. And those that do have training probably have never dealt with that type of intense scenario before and would be liable to panic.

You don't need training to open carry (on the hip) and this actually is quite rare. i live in New Mexico where it is legal to OC. I've seen one person do it in public in a restaurant, and two on motorcycles (safer to carry outside your clothes in case of an accident I imagine) plus gunstore employees and some other store employees.

Anyone carrying a gun in public is likely a CCW requiring a minimum of 8 hours instruction, plus a qualifying accuracy practical shooting test.
http://www.coloradoweaponstraining.com/conceal.htm

seamus wrote: »

I checked the Colorado laws, and the concelead weapon permit only requires that the applicant has completed a "handgun training class".

Which presumably handles things like properly holding & aiming the weapon, checking the safety, not using the gun to picks your ear, etc.

I agree that in general it would be experienced handlers who hold these permits, but people in a crisis can be idiots. Unless they've been specifically trained for combat, they're likely to do more harm than good in situations like this.
.

Slightly(!) biased stats here...http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/concealed-carry-issues-discussions/138429-some-statistics-about-2a-ccw.html although the stats are from the Violence Policy Group who are not generally pro-gun.

# of unjustified gun deaths, provided by the Violence Policy Center, for 2011:
Total: 54

Out of those 54 gun deaths, there were:
Gun accidents, suicides, neglicent discharges, etc: 17
Murders, involved in illegal activities, drive-by-shootings, etc: 31
Actual unjustified shootings: 2 (of with all 2 cases are still pending)
One incident where the CCW-Licensees shooting was ruled justified, but the attacker shot back, killing the CCW-Licensee - which somehow is counted as unjustified shooting by the VPC

Bear in mind a number of crimes have actually been stopped by just showing a weapon, estimates run at about 55% of the time the threat walks away when shown the nasty end of a concealed weapon.

Bacchus wrote: »

Competency isn't the same as being able to handle yourself in a gun fight in a dark, crowded cinema. Maybe lives could have been saved but an inexperienced (in this type of situation) gun owner firing rounds at the attacker in the dark with people running and screaming could have cost lives too.

Yes, it might. Equally, a high-trained individual could have prevented it. Equally, the police could have shot the 'hero' in error.

What we do know is that guns are not going to disappear anytime soon in American society. However a lot of the comments here are grossly misinformed about "gun-nuts" America. The numbers of Americans have a firearm is lower than Switzerland. Gun Homicide rates are higher in Slovakia, an EU country, than the US. source

Illinois is currently experimenting with banning CCW. Homicide rates have gone up massively in Chicago last year. source

token101 wrote: »

Can't see happening in Norway again though.
Can you name one mass shooting incident like this in London? Berlin? They're all big cities like the ones in the states?

More than one, yes.

Hungerford, UK
Dunblane, UK
Cumbria, UK
Kauhajoki, Finland.
Tuusula, Finland.
Emsdetten, Germany,
Erfurt, Germany

Mickeroo

stevenmu wrote: »

You can look at those statistics another way too:

Colorado 117 murders, 52 without firearms.

Alabama 199 murders, 64 without firearms

South Carolina 280 murders, 73 without firearms

Minnesota 91 murders, 38 without firearms

Wisconsin 157 murders, 60 without firearms

---

Norway 31 murders, 22 without firearms



It's clear that the states listed have higher murder rates than Norway even when fire arms are taken out of the equation. Despite all of the really wonderful things about America and Americans, there seems to be a serious problem with violence and murder. Sure a lot of the murders are firearms related, but if you look at how many are not firearm related, despite the easy availability of firearms, can you really say that taking the firearms away is going to prevent the murders?

If I have to hit a nail into a piece of timber, I'm clearly going to reach for a hammer and not a screwdriver, but there has been times when I didn't have a hammer, so I got the handle of the screwdriver and bet the nail in all the same.

There's clearly a much deeper problem than just the availability of guns, and in order to identify and solve it people need to stop scapegoating and face the real issues.

Norway is probably one of the best countries in the world when it comes to social equality whereas the states has very high levels of social inequality. Afaik I know there's always a strong correlation between social inequality and crime in general.

I'm not saying thats definitive or anything, obviously Norway still managed a massacre of its own recently, but that was very much a freak occurence.

Manic Moran

MadYaker wrote: »

True but I think incidents like this are becoming more frequent and I think in a few years time there will be some changes to the second amendment.

Zero chance of that happening.

To amend the Constitution requires the approval of 38 States. 44 of the States currently have the right to arms within their own Constitutions, most are far more explicit than the Federal Constutition about the fact that the right is for individuals to exercise in various manners to include self defence.

http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/statecon.htm

If a few dozen of the cinema goers were carrying weapons, most likely a lot more people would be dead and the police would be trying to deal with multiple shooters on the run as people panic when they realise that they've shot and killed other innocent people.

I am an advocate of taking the intiative. I don't believe that anything could be a worse result than simply letting the shooter go about his business until he decides on his own that he is done. He might stop after one. He might have a dozen magazines and some hand grenades and not stop until everyone he sees is dead. How much do you want to rely on the shooter's motivation or incompetence to result in keeping the toll to a minimum?

NTM

SharpshooterTom

MadsL wrote: »

More than one, yes.

Hungerford, UK
Dunblane, UK
Cumbria, UK
Kauhajoki, Finland.
Tuusula, Finland.
Emsdetten, Germany,
Erfurt, Germany

Some of these, like Hungerford, stretch way back to the 80s, how many mass shootings have their been in western europe compared the united states? I suspect they go on a lot more frequently there? How many mass shootings in the past 30 years have gone on in America resulting in 10 or more deaths?

MadsL

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Some of these, like Hungerford, stretch way back to the 80s, how many mass shootings have their been in western europe compared the united states? I suspect they go on a lot more frequently there? How many mass shootings in the past 30 years have gone on in America resulting in 10 or more deaths?

Now you want to change the terms of the question?

Knock yourself out, here's the wiki will all types of rampage killing statistics. Asia and Oceania head the table. Incidentally Europe is very close behind the Americas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers#School_massacres

The Omagh bomb killed more and vastly injured more than this shooting and Columbine put together. What's your point exactly?

BarackPyjama

Another winner for the U S of A. They seriously need to do something about 1) the availability of guns in that country and 2) the number of psychopaths that they seem to breed. What a f**ked up, diseased society.

old hippy

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Another winner for the U S of A. They seriously need to do something about 1) the availability of guns in that country and 2) the number of psychopaths that they seem to breed. What a f**ked up, diseased society.

Crude

Jesus Shaves

See what watching "superhero" movies does, It's nearly as bad as relgion.

steelcityblues

Jesus Shaves wrote: »

See what watching "superhero" movies does, It's nearly as bad as relgion.

Don't tell me you subscribe to the 'blame culture', too. Most people who enjoy superhero movies don't do insane things like this.

old hippy

Jesus Shaves wrote: »

See what watching "superhero" movies does, It's nearly as bad as relgion.

It's more of a vigilante film but anyway, anything could have set this person off, rather than any genre of movie...

Duggys Housemate

have they worked out how he got in armed to the teeth?

BarackPyjama

old hippy wrote: »

Crude

Perhaps. Wrong, though?

MadsL

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Another winner for the U S of A. They seriously need to do something about 1) the availability of guns in that country and 2) the number of psychopaths that they seem to breed. What a f**ked up, diseased society.

Yep it is a sick society that gets civilians caught up in psychopaths actions.

*cough*

IRA: 293 dead,
British Armed Forces: 655 dead
RUC: 272 dead
621–644 civilians killed by Provisional IRA.
188 civilians killed by British forces.

Yeah, f*cked up and diseased.

My name is URL

Instead of arguing that having a population with a right to arm themselves leads to increased levels of mass killings, how about arguing that the same doesn't mean that said population are at less risk of becoming the victims of crime?

Isn't that the main argument for guns?... that by being armed, you are statistically less likely to become a victim?

And yet in the US you are about three times more likely than you would be in most of Europe; to be assaulted/robbed/raped/murdered.

Anyway... arguing both for or against harsher gun laws, and basing your argument on random acts of madness like this one doesn't make any sense as it only paints a tiny picture of the overall landscape.

old hippy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

have they worked out how he got in armed to the teeth?

A premier for a Batman movie? I imagine there were lots of ordinary fans there, dressed up...

BarackPyjama

MadsL wrote: »

Yep it is a sick society that gets civilians caught up in psychopaths actions.

*cough*

IRA: 293 dead,
British Armed Forces: 655 dead
RUC: 272 dead
621–644 civilians killed by Provisional IRA.
188 civilians killed by British forces.

Yeah, f*cked up and diseased.

Superb comparison. :rolleyes:

Jesus Shaves

steelcityblues wrote: »

Don't tell me you subscribe to the 'blame culture', too. Most people who enjoy superhero movies don't do insane things like this.

Most people who are muslim don't have bombs in their shoes

I dont blame these things entirely but they do trigger something in the minds of the insane

old hippy

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Perhaps. Wrong, though?

Negative at the very least. All societies are "diseased" if you take a closer look...

Duggys Housemate

MadsL wrote: »

Yep it is a sick society that gets civilians caught up in psychopaths actions.

*cough*

IRA: 293 dead,
British Armed Forces: 655 dead
RUC: 272 dead
621–644 civilians killed by Provisional IRA.
188 civilians killed by British forces.

Yeah, f*cked up and diseased.

Indeed, although a different jurisdiction to the one most of us are posting from. That said, Northern Ireland was in fact less violent than, say, Oakland, during the troubles.

omgitsthelazor

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

have they worked out how he got in armed to the teeth?

People don't metal screen or frisk you going into a movie theater. Its not going to take too much effort to smuggle anything, particularly during a launch event where dressing with gask masks, bulletproof vests and having a cap concealing a shotgun behind you is just going to be considered a costume.

MadsL

My name is URL wrote: »

And yet in the US you are about three times more likely than you would be in most of Europe; to be assaulted/robbed/raped/murdered.

Source?

Duggys Housemate

old hippy wrote: »

A premier for a Batman movie? I imagine there were lots of ordinary fans there, dressed up...

He would be packing a lot of heat for Batman.

old hippy

Jesus Shaves wrote: »

Most people who are muslim don't have bombs in their shoes

I dont blame these things entirely but they do trigger something in the minds of the insane

Insane people do insane things. Something will always trigger them.

MadsL

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Indeed, although a different jurisdiction to the one most of us are posting from. That said, Northern Ireland was in fact less violent than, say, Oakland, during the troubles.

Wanna try a source for that?

omgitsthelazor

MadsL wrote: »

Source?

It's an incorrect stat, you're actually 5 times more likely in the US. The homicidal rate is 5 times higher over there, the violent assault rate among youths 12 times higher.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=countries+by+homicide+rate

mike65

Pretty damning to have some here suggesting having more guns is the solution to armed nutters.

Not drawing a distinction between ideologues/political murder and random crazies is also dubious thinking.

Nodin

Jesus Shaves wrote: »

Most people who are muslim don't have bombs in their shoes

I dont blame these things entirely but they do trigger something in the minds of the insane

Yep. Jack the Ripper and Albert Fish's Xtravision account shows multiple hirings of Evil Dead II.

Witcher

mike65 wrote: »

Pretty damning to have some here suggesting having more guns is the solution to armed nutters.

It makes sense in some ways, if there are guns out there and people willing to use them for the wrong reasons then why should person A not have one to protect themselves?

You can't remove the guns from the equation so all you can do is level the playing field in a sense.

BarackPyjama

Please provide a source to prove that this happens in the USA more than any other country. Or else use your observational skills along with common sense.

Seriously. Some people are idiots.

old hippy

Blay wrote: »

It makes sense in some ways, if there are guns out there and people willing to use them for the wrong reasons then why should person A not have one to protect themselves?

Because then you get an armed populace which increases fear and retaliation and innocent bystanders. No thanks.

abouttobebanned

Red Hand wrote: »

He can edit it so that it is readable. I don't think many people are going to read a block of text no matter what the subject.

The original was devoid of paragraphs too. I was just trying to provide people with quick access to it if they didn't already have it. apologies.