Sean Quinn - A man more sinned against than sinning?

Boombastic

My OH supports Sean Quinn. He reckons because he wasn't politically connected he was shafted, the good that he done should be recogonised and if the government had to have left him alone he would of paid it back.


:rolleyes:

stepbar

M three wrote: »

Quinn would have repaid his debts completely.

From what? This is the nonsense that Sean Quinn and his family continue to peddle to anyone who will listen.

The Quinn Group made a loss of €888mil in 2009 and a further loss of €339 mil in 2010 (lets remember that Quinn Insurance was put into administration in March 2010 and did not form part of the group and was not included in it's accounts - Quinn Insurance lost €160 mil in 2010 for the record). At its peak in 2006, the entire group made a profit of €376 mil. The company was loss making in 2007 due to a write down in the value of investments.

Assuming full repayments of €2.8bil of debt over 7 years would mean that the entire group would have needed to generate profits of over €400 mil a year. And that's without any interest being taken account of. And as well as that there was a insolvency issue in Quinn Insurance which needed a cash injection; a contracting Construction industry and to top it all off the worst recession in this country for decades. Fairyland stuff. Apparently this 7 year plan had the backing of Deutsche Bank.... why didn't they invest so? Why did Liberty and Anglo have to inject €200 mil to recapitalise Quinn Insurance? Why did all the lenders to the remaining Quinn Group need to take a debt write down?

The 7 year plan was absolute waffle and could not have been achieved.

Wudyaquit

stepbar wrote: »

The 7 year plan was absolute waffle and could not have been achieved.

Deutche Bank disagreed with you. In fact Anglo even supported the plan, but the financial regulator, (who had no prescribed role in deciding who took over) went against it.

Regardless of whether you think the plan would have worked or not, with how the companies have performed since the takeover it's clear the bank would have recovered more had they not taken over when they did. They took Quinn out and put in pen pushers who have been "running" the companies from Dublin. This was all for the purpose of cutting off finance to Quinn so that he couldn't sue over the Quinn Direct debacle.

Most graphic illustration of the difference in competence was Michael Noonan bragging on tv about having persuaded the bondholders to take a 50% cut. He saved not one red cent - a child of 7 could negotiate more competently.

The guys now running the companies are goldfish swimming with sharks. Anyone who thinks they are better able to negotiate and run these companies than Quinn are beyond deluded.

I guess tho the OP's question is regarding whether SQ has been treated fairly. Anglo and the Government have not acted competently, but more-so they haven't acted fairly in their approach. The decisions that have been made haven't been for the benefit of the taxpayer - they were made to appease bondholders and for political gain. This has been a dirty, murky debacle and the more you read about what's happened, the angrier you get. Perhaps the anti-quinn people do to, but what galls most is that the villains are still succeeding in masquerading as the heroes.

zenno

Boombastic wrote: »

My OH supports Sean Quinn. He reckons because he wasn't politically connected he was shafted, the good that he done should be recogonised and if the government had to have left him alone he would of paid it back.


:rolleyes:

The three of them should get 20 years minimum. Why people are defending these crooks is beyond me. We are paying for their gamble now so f*ck them.

SocSocPol

Wudyaquit wrote: »

Deutche Bank disagreed with you. In fact Anglo even supported the plan, but the financial regulator, (who had no prescribed role in deciding who took over) went against it.

Regardless of whether you think the plan would have worked or not, with how the companies have performed since the takeover it's clear the bank would have recovered more had they not taken over when they did. They took Quinn out and put in pen pushers who have been "running" the companies from Dublin. This was all for the purpose of cutting off finance to Quinn so that he couldn't sue over the Quinn Direct debacle.

Most graphic illustration of the difference in competence was Michael Noonan bragging on tv about having persuaded the bondholders to take a 50% cut. He saved not one red cent - a child of 7 could negotiate more competently.

The guys now running the companies are goldfish swimming with sharks. Anyone who thinks they are better able to negotiate and run these companies than Quinn are beyond deluded.

I guess tho the OP's question is regarding whether SQ has been treated fairly. Anglo and the Government have not acted competently, but more-so they haven't acted fairly in their approach. The decisions that have been made haven't been for the benefit of the taxpayer - they were made to appease bondholders and for political gain. This has been a dirty, murky debacle and the more you read about what's happened, the angrier you get. Perhaps the anti-quinn people do to, but what galls most is that the villains are still succeeding in masquerading as the heroes.

That one word best describes your post.
Quinn his wife, kids, and nephew should be in Jail, and hopefully some day soon they will.
The Constitution of the country should be changed to allow us to strip them and their ilk of citizenship.

MagicSean

M three wrote: »

I hear this a lot on this thread, the taxpayer owns Anglo now, so we must go after quinn for everything. Do you know the government has pumped 63 billion into banks? People are taking the get quinn line from the likes of the irish independant and getting very vocal about it. And completely forgetting about the vastly bigger, more important picture.

Quinn would have repaid his debts completely. But instead the asset strippers got to work, to the ultimate benefit of foreign companies

What evidence have you to suggest he would have paid any of his debts? That "big picture" you talk of is made up of people like Quinn who borrowed at unsustainable levels for dodgy or stupid schemes and projects.

Ellis Dee

What's all this BS about "sinning". There is no such thing as sinning, because the sky fairy doesn't exist, no matter how much Sean Quinn may invoke it and, like so many others who take on the law and lose, try to put on a pious front.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

No, it is not sin that is involved here, but possible fraud - which is a CRIME.:eek:

Quinn gambled unsuccessfully with others' money in a bid to become even richer and he and members of his extended family are now accused of attempting to conceal substantial amounts of assets that belong rightfully to others, not least the Irish taxpayer. One of his co-accused is even on the run and probably out of the jurisdiction by now. Who is the offender here?

The place to answer those charges is a court of law, not a confessional.:cool:

hardCopy

M three wrote: »

Remember to say that if you get stranded someplace and you get rescued by one.
Owning a helicopter does not automatically equal extravagance.

However pointing out that someone who does own one is extravagant may be evidence of begrudgery, something thats never in short supply in ireland

The Northwest must really miss his Quinn Rescue Helicopter, such a philanthropist.

MagicSean

M three wrote: »

Remember to say that if you get stranded someplace and you get rescued by one.
Owning a helicopter does not automatically equal extravagance.

However pointing out that someone who does own one is extravagant may be evidence of begrudgery, something thats never in short supply in ireland

Are you suggesting Sean Quinn bought a helicopter to rescue people?

M three

SocSocPol wrote: »

That one word best describes your post.
Quinn his wife, kids, and nephew should be in Jail, and hopefully some day soon they will.
The Constitution of the country should be changed to allow us to strip them and their ilk of citizenship.

Pretty spiteful stuff there soc, have you actually given that much thought? Quinn paid tens of millions in taxes as a citizen of this country. Compared to the off shore bunch of people who claim to be irish, but live abroad so they dont have to pay tax here.

afterburn1

hardCopy wrote: »

Owning a helicopter = extravagant

Helicopter my backside. A lear jet my friend, he had long since progressed from the helicopter. When you have such a vast business empire why would you not have one anyway?;)

mikom

M three wrote: »

Remember to say that if you get stranded someplace and you get rescued by one.

Quinns helicopter?

M three wrote: »

Owning a helicopter does not automatically equal extravagance.

Possibly, if you are the state and use it for search and rescue purpose like you vainly tried to link it to

M three wrote: »

However pointing out that someone who does own one is extravagant may be evidence of begrudgery, something thats never in short supply in ireland

I suppose people begrudged Bertie as well.

Wudyaquit

SocSocPol wrote: »

That one word best describes your post.
Quinn his wife, kids, and nephew should be in Jail, and hopefully some day soon they will.
The Constitution of the country should be changed to allow us to strip them and their ilk of citizenship.

With the exception of my subjective opinion that the companies aren't being run well by the receivers, my post was objectively factual.
Your post reflects the opinions you've swallowed from the media - "This is our money he's stealing etc. etc." Unwilling and no doubt unable to argue on any particular issue, but just give a blanket thanks whore comment. Completely ill-informed. And no doubt patting yourself on the back for being able to understand these issues unlike the half-wits that can't see Quinn for what he is.

MagicSean wrote: »

What evidence have you to suggest he would have paid any of his debts?

No, we should assume they wouldn't pay their debts. And throw everyone with a mortgage out on the assumption that they won't pay theirs either

MagicSean

Wudyaquit wrote: »

With the exception of my subjective opinion that the companies aren't being run well by the receivers, my post was objectively factual.
Your post reflects the opinions you've swallowed from the media - "This is our money he's stealing etc. etc." Unwilling and no doubt unable to argue on any particular issue, but just give a blanket thanks whore comment. Completely ill-informed. And no doubt patting yourself on the back for being able to understand these issues unlike the half-wits that can't see Quinn for what he is.


No, we should assume they wouldn't pay their debts. And throw everyone with a mortgage out on the assumption that they won't pay theirs either

We don't have to assume anything. The courts have done that. He was transferring assets to avoid them being held against his debts. He is fighting tooth and nail to hold on to his money in the courts.

Hotblack Desiato

Wudyaquit wrote: »

And throw everyone with a mortgage out on the assumption that they won't pay theirs either

Everyone with a mortgage who is shifting their assets overseas to avoid paying their debts here, yeah...

Wudyaquit

MagicSean wrote: »

We don't have to assume anything. The courts have done that. He was transferring assets to avoid them being held against his debts. He is fighting tooth and nail to hold on to his money in the courts.

M three's point was that he would have paid his debts had Anglo not taken over - you somehow feel he should provide evidence to support this point. Where is your evidence that he wouldn't have in light of the fact that he hadn't missed a payment up to the point when Anglo took over?
To say he's not going to pay the debts now (if the courts decide that the debts are even enforceable) is stating the obvious - Anglo's ousting of him made sure he will never be able to should the debts be valid - but that clearly wasn't the point M three was making.

SocSoc Liked your post tho, God bless him.

ninja900 wrote: »

Everyone with a mortgage who is shifting their assets overseas to avoid paying their debts here, yeah...

Again, M three's point was that Quinn would have paid his debts if Anglo hadn't moved in. Which exact assets were shifted overseas at that point?

And more to the point, which debts has Quinn not paid? There is only €500m of undisputed debt which has already been paid a couple of times over. But hey, we only care about the legal position when it works against the Quinns.

stepbar

Wudyaquit wrote: »

.

The guys now running the companies are goldfish swimming with sharks. Anyone who thinks they are better able to negotiate and run these companies than Quinn are beyond deluded.

What nonsence :rolleyes:

The Quinn Group was loss making in 2007, 2009 and 2010. Quinn was in still in charge during those years. In 2011, the Quinn Group narrowed it's loss to €44.3 mil (after giving it's bankers a bath).

Deutche Bank disagreed with you. In fact Anglo even supported the plan, but the financial regulator, (who had no prescribed role in deciding who took over) went against it.

Regardless of what happened with Anglo, Sean Quinn of his own free will invested personal funds in Anglo shares (purchased by CFD's). He didn't even put up the full cost of same shares. Anglo was nationalised and because of Sean Quinn's reckless actions, he lost his company. You can argue that until the cows come home; that is fact. The boys in Anglo will have their day in court for their recklessness.

If Deutsche bank believed in the plan they would have bailed the Quinn Group out. It ended up costing €200 mil to bail out Quinn Insurance (€100 mil than the Quinns had estimated). And furthermore, Grant Thornton have estimated that a further €800 mil - €1 bil will be needed to plug the deficit within Quinn Insurance (aka Liberty Insurance). It's very convenient for Sean Quinn to have people believe that the Financial Regulator wanted him out. Very convenient.

Finally, during the Quinn Direct years; the company didn't even have an actuary!!! Sean Quinn is some man to be talking about solvency ratios....

joseph brand

musings wrote: »

You mean the bill that Anglo stuck him my husband with and that he's paying?

FYP

joseph brand

M three wrote: »

Remember to say that if you get stranded someplace and you get rescued by one.
Owning a helicopter does not automatically equal extravagance.

Dr Dre and Scoopy Dogg Dog rescued me in the snow, in the Wicklow mountains in their helicopter. Salt of the earth they were. Helicopter was full of b*tches. Fo Realz.

Wudyaquit

stepbar wrote: »

What nonsence :rolleyes:

The Quinn Group was loss making in 2007, 2009 and 2010. Quinn was in still in charge during those years. In 2011, the Quinn Group narrowed it's loss to €44.3 mil (after giving it's bankers a bath).

Those figures are what's nonsense - Group losses were down to servicing of the debt. Even if the new crowd were this dream team you clearly think they are, do you really think they could turn around a company this size in 6 months, amidst turmoil and an initial exodus of customers?
How did the bankers take a bath exactly? What is for sure, if there was any chance of Quinn Group failing the bond holders would have taken a cut in order to get something back. Instead they rubbed their hands together as Anglo took over and proceeded to pay them every cent.

stepbar wrote: »

Regardless of what happened with Anglo, Sean Quinn of his own free will invested personal funds in Anglo shares (purchased by CFD's). He didn't even put up the full cost of same shares. Anglo was nationalised and because of Sean Quinn's reckless actions, he lost his company. You can argue that until the cows come home; that is fact. The boys in Anglo will have their day in court for their recklessness.

If Deutsche bank believed in the plan they would have bailed the Quinn Group out. It ended up costing €200 mil to bail out Quinn Insurance (€100 mil than the Quinns had estimated). And furthermore, Grant Thornton have estimated that a further €800 mil - €1 bil will be needed to plug the deficit within Quinn Insurance (aka Liberty Insurance). It's very convenient for Sean Quinn to have people believe that the Financial Regulator wanted him out. Very convenient.

What the hell are you on about, DB investing in the company? They were independent consultants who don't even operate in insurance. Why on earth would they invest in a company where they would be bottom of the creditors list without a hope of seeing 1 cent back in 7 years? They were advising on the Quinn/Anglo plan's chances of success. I guess they should invest in every company on the planet who they don't think is going out of business. Or maybe they should ask you before making a recommendation since you're clearly so au fait with corporate financing. Ridiculous.

How are the accounts of Liberty doing now that Quinns are gone by the way? Grant Thornton increased the reserves by over €100 in December 2010 in order to reflect poorer performance in the company. Even allowing for this bit of creative accounting, the disastorous performance in the interim has lead to a massive reduction in written premium, with Liberty refusing to confirm if there'll be additional redundancies.
But you will still, no doubt, believe that Grant Thronton with mainly non-insurance professionals working for them, spending literally millions on consultants, have managed to turn around that loss making dog, Quinn Insurance. It took them TWO YEARS to say, "Oh wait, we need another half a billion to sort this out, silly us, but that's nothing to do with what were doing - we're doing a great job". And lo and behold in a year's time they'll come back saying, "Actually we did a really good job and only needed 250m aren't we great". They simply are out of their depth in a highly competitive industry. And before you crack out the one that Quinn Insurance made a loss in 2008 - every insurance company in Ireland made an underwriting loss that year - the company was and should still be one of the most profitable companies in Ireland.

I have no argument with the contempt case, but what is getting my goat most on all of this is the Anti-Quinn camp shouting the odds about how dumb those who support Quinn are, but invariably have no clue what they're talking about. Your posts are a good case in point.

stepbar

Wudyaquit wrote: »

Those figures are what's nonsense - Group losses were down to servicing of the debt. Even if the new crowd were this dream team you clearly think they are, do you really think they could turn around a company this size in 6 months, amidst turmoil and an initial exodus of customers?
How did the bankers take a bath exactly? What is for sure, if there was any chance of Quinn Group failing the bond holders would have taken a cut in order to get something back. Instead they rubbed their hands together as Anglo took over and proceeded to pay them every cent

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1202/breaking13.html

The banks spent 2 years trying to restructure the Quinn Group. The company wasn't even repaying its debt - Anglo provided an interest roll up facility of €26 mil to the Quinn Group in 2009 - http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bank-admits-anglo-had-to-save-quinn-3147534.html

What the hell are you on about, DB investing in the company? They were independent consultants who don't even operate in insurance. Why on earth would they invest in a company where they would be bottom of the creditors list without a hope of seeing 1 cent back in 7 years? They were advising on the Quinn/Anglo plan's chances of success. I guess they should invest in every company on the planet who they don't think is going out of business. Or maybe they should ask you before making a recommendation since you're clearly so au fait with corporate financing. Ridiculous.

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2010/04/21/3996560-regulator-set-to-restore-quinns-uk-business/print

DB Private Equity was widely reported as a potential investor.

How are the accounts of Liberty doing now that Quinns are gone by the way? Grant Thornton increased the reserves by over €100 in December 2010 in order to reflect poorer performance in the company. Even allowing for this bit of creative accounting, the disastorous performance in the interim has lead to a massive reduction in written premium, with Liberty refusing to confirm if there'll be additional redundancies.
But you will still, no doubt, believe that Grant Thronton with mainly non-insurance professionals working for them, spending literally millions on consultants, have managed to turn around that loss making dog, Quinn Insurance. It took them TWO YEARS to say, "Oh wait, we need another half a billion to sort this out, silly us, but that's nothing to do with what were doing - we're doing a great job". And lo and behold in a year's time they'll come back saying, "Actually we did a really good job and only needed 250m aren't we great". They simply are out of their depth in a highly competitive industry. And before you crack out the one that Quinn Insurance made a loss in 2008 - every insurance company in Ireland made an underwriting loss that year - the company was and should still be one of the most profitable companies in Ireland.

Liberty is aiming for a profit in 2012 - http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/quinn-direct-name-dies-as-new-owners-unveil-liberty-insurance-3021679.html

Quinn Insurance didn't even have an actuary working in the company before same was put into administration. No wonder it took so long for Grant Thornton to pick through the hubris with the sort of underwriting risks Quinn Insurance was taking.

Conor30

fran17 wrote: »

i feel alot of sympathy for him,the guy started out with a loan for £100 and built everything from the bottom up.the day when sean fitzpatrick is brought to book is when real justice is served.but with his political ties and knowledge surrounding the bank guarantee i fear that day will never come.bastard

You condone his breaking a court order to steal the remaining assets and defraud the tax payer?

Wudyaquit

stepbar wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1202/breaking13.html

The banks spent 2 years trying to restructure the Quinn Group. The company wasn't even repaying its debt - Anglo provided an interest roll up facility of €26 mil to the Quinn Group in 2009 - http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bank-admits-anglo-had-to-save-quinn-3147534.html

Yes it was repaying. There was a distributiion of €200m that was used to service the debt and bondholders were paid off. Beyond that the profits and losses over the period were largely affected by write-downs on property assets. €26 mil on a debt of 2.8bn would be an interest rate of less than 1%.

stepbar wrote: »

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2010/04/21/3996560-regulator-set-to-restore-quinns-uk-business/print

DB Private Equity was widely reported as a potential investor.

Did you even bother to read that article? It was regarding potential investors in Quinn Group - completely unrelated to who would take over Quinn Insurance.

stepbar wrote: »

Liberty is aiming for a profit in 2012 - http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/quinn-direct-name-dies-as-new-owners-unveil-liberty-insurance-3021679.html

That article's from Feb. I think most companies would generally aim for a profit at the start of the year. Besides which Liberty only currently manages the Irish business - they have an option on the UK business which no doubt they'll be walking away from despite the move being largely regarded as being their entry into Europe.

stepbar wrote: »

Quinn Insurance didn't even have an actuary working in the company before same was put into administration. No wonder it took so long for Grant Thornton to pick through the hubris with the sort of underwriting risks Quinn Insurance was taking.

Maybe have a look and see what the role of an actuary is before making out that the lack of one had any influence in the speed with which Grant Thornton could analyse the claims reserves.
Regardless of the non-sensical comment regarding actuaries, the claims book was no doubt analysed by all the potential insurance companies, so Grant Thornton coming back saying they were 50% off 2 years later is a clear demonstration that they've made a balls of the whole thing.

I won't in any way be surprised if Liberty or some of the other ex Quinn companies are downsized, and when it happens, that too will be Quinn's fault because of the original investment. Never mind the wreckless moves of Anglo and the Government in the interim.

evolving_doors

Whats this whole 'more sinned against than sinning' BS.

this aint shakespere.. people often try to portray these guys as if it is some leaving cert question on Othello. Same auld media 'discussion' on mick wallace..

just remember it was Charlie Haughty who started all this "I've done the state some service" shakespere BS, but at the end of the day he was riding us all taking us for fools.

Now here's a question..

Would we have heard about these developer/quinn guys if their dodgy deals had come good.. ya but only in the back of the Sunday Indo society rag rubbing our faces in it.. not the courts.

Do not pass go Sean, Do not collect £200..

Although he'll gladly do a few months jail time if it means being reunited with his and his families squirreled millions after.. same as those anglo boys ..over 3 years have passed since it all went belly up, what do you think they've been doing since... talking to a priest or some accountant in the Bahamas?

Suckas

stepbar

Wudyaquit wrote: »

Yes it was repaying. There was a distributiion of €200m that was used to service the debt and bondholders were paid off. Beyond that the profits and losses over the period were largely affected by write-downs on property assets. €26 mil on a debt of 2.8bn would be an interest rate of less than 1%.

Interest ROLL UP is different and suggests at some point during 2009 the Quinn Group stopped repaying its debts.

Did you even bother to read that article? It was regarding potential investors in Quinn Group - completely unrelated to who would take over Quinn Insurance.

Did you read it?

There are reports that private equity would put up the €150m of capital required to help the insurer meet its solvency obligations.

That article's from Feb. I think most companies would generally aim for a profit at the start of the year. Besides which Liberty only currently manages the Irish business - they have an option on the UK business which no doubt they'll be walking away from despite the move being largely regarded as being their entry into Europe.

Liberty manage the UK business and are not underwriting any new business at present due the reckless underwriting practices undertaken by Quinn in the UK. Big difference. They have an option to buy the UK entity by year end. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0224/1224312304118.html

Maybe have a look and see what the role of an actuary is before making out that the lack of one had any influence in the speed with which Grant Thornton could analyse the claims reserves.
Regardless of the non-sensical comment regarding actuaries, the claims book was no doubt analysed by all the potential insurance companies, so Grant Thornton coming back saying they were 50% off 2 years later is a clear demonstration that they've made a balls of the whole thing.

The Claims reserve was understated !!!! Under Quinn control!!!!! Grant Thornton made a balls of nothing. The fact it took Grant Thornton 2 years to bed down what the actual outstanding claims were tells me a lot about the way Quinn Insurance operated during the years it was in operation and the business it was underwriting. Also, under the Liberty deal Anglo stumped up €100 mil to recap Quinn Insurance and guaranteed it's entire liabilities. Says a lot about how strong Quinn Insurance was.....

Happyman42

Friends of the Quinn Family on Vincent Browne now. No swearing at the TV now!:D

coolhull

just how much does he need to salt away to ''protect his family''?

Mardy Bum

There was a point in the past (before all the evidence came out) when Quinn could be defended and rightly so, now however there is overwhelming evidence provided for the criminal activities which occurred in order to save himself and his fortune.

It takes an enormous amount of greed and ruthlessness to find yourself in Sean Quinn's shoes now. No doubt a large part of his charitable works in West Cavan were carried out because of a deep shame and emptiness.

He is an extraordinary individual all the same and a good example for the virtues and vices of capitalism.

stepbar

Wudyaquit wrote: »

I have no argument with the contempt case, but what is getting my goat most on all of this is the Anti-Quinn camp shouting the odds about how dumb those who support Quinn are, but invariably have no clue what they're talking about. Your posts are a good case in point.

:rolleyes:

The Very Hungry Catterpillar

Quinn Family Vincent Browne Special on now - TV3 make up dept playing a blinder