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Sean Quinn - A man more sinned against than sinning?
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Wow. The pair of them are making a show of themselves :rolleyes:0
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I'll say it again - they were paying debts contrary to what you say, including a €200m distribution that went to the banks and bondholders.Interest ROLL UP is different and suggests at some point during 2009 the Quinn Group stopped repaying its debts.
I know what a roll up is - my point in listing the interest rate at less than 1% was to point out that there is no way that amount would have been enough to cover the entire interest, so even your figures are demonstrating that interest was paid.
DB were not a potential investor.Did you read it?
The potential investors were Travelers and Liberty. Why would any company hire a potential investor to do the consultancy work on which the investment would be made?
Of course, and if they wanted to increase reserves by 2bn that'd be ok too, yes? The reserves were THE critical issue in the sale of the company, to say that that process wasn't completed in full prior to the sale is complete nonsense. If it wasn't, GT made a balls of it. If it was and they got it that wrong they made a balls of it anyway.Liberty manage the UK business and are not underwriting any new business at present due the reckless underwriting practices undertaken by Quinn in the UK. Big difference. They have an option to buy the UK entity by year end. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0224/1224312304118.html
The Claims reserve was understated !!!! Under Quinn control!!!!! Grant Thornton made a balls of nothing. The fact it took Grant Thornton 2 years to bed down what the actual outstanding claims were tells me a lot about the way Quinn Insurance operated during the years it was in operation and the business it was underwriting. Also, under the Liberty deal Anglo stumped up €100 mil to recap Quinn Insurance and guaranteed it's entire liabilities. Says a lot about how strong Quinn Insurance was.....
Quinn direct was a massively profitable company. Even allowing for any underreserving, it made huge profits every year it was in operation. The fact that you're arguing that the company is performing better now reflects your ignorance of the facts.0 -
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I'll say it again - they were paying debts contrary to what you say, including a €200m distribution that went to the banks and bondholders.
I know what a roll up is - my point in listing the interest rate at less than 1% was to point out that there is no way that amount would have been enough to cover the entire interest, so even your figures are demonstrating that interest was paid.
I'll quote again. That was in 2009.Interest ROLL UP is different and suggests at some point during 2009 the Quinn Group stopped repaying its debts.
Do you have any evidence to show that a distribution was made?DB were not a potential investor.
The article states otherwise. DB Private Equity is clearly mentioned.Of course, and if they wanted to increase reserves by 2bn that'd be ok too, yes? The reserves were THE critical issue in the sale of the company, to say that that process wasn't completed in full prior to the sale is complete nonsense. If it wasn't, GT made a balls of it. If it was and they got it that wrong they made a balls of it anyway.
Quinn direct was a massively profitable company. Even allowing for any underreserving, it made huge profits every year it was in operation. The fact that you're arguing that the company is performing better now reflects your ignorance of the facts.
Quinn Direct was loss making in 2009 & 2010 and is likely to be loss making in 2011. Liberty is predicting a profit in 2012. That's what I'm saying. Basically what you are saying is that it's OK to overstate profit and understate reserves. Doesn't work like that in insurance. Any insurance company could make a **** load of profit if they were not adequately provisioning against claims. The blame for understating reserves does not lie with Grant Thornton. They came in to clean up the mess. The blame lies with the previous management at Quinn Insurance and the wider Quinn Group.0 -
You said the company made losses in 2007, 2009 and 2010 and wasn't paying it's debts (you didn't stipulate 2009 til I called you on it).I'll quote again. That was in 2009.
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The were fully paid up in 2007, I presume you're now accepting that they did pay in 2009. 2010 showed almost 1bn in impairments: "The balance sheet net assets of the group at year end were in deficit to the tune of €249 million. The figure takes into account provisions of €957 million against related party loan balances."
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0511/1224315906378.html
So when exactly were these trading losses?
Yep.Do you have any evidence to show that a distribution was made?
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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1102/1224257903340.html
No it doesn't. It states that in April 2010, straight after the administrators were appointed Quinn Group were reported to be looking at financing to take on some of the Quinn insurance exposure and DB was one of the ones mentioned.The article states otherwise. DB Private Equity is clearly mentioned.
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The report they did, was much later in the year and was in relation to the Quinn/ Anglo bid to take over Quinn Insurance when it was decided the company should be sold. Only insurance companies were in the running. Couple of articles listing the front runners below
Can you show me an article showing that they were in the bidding process to take over Quinn Insurance in line with the report they produced much later in that year? You can believe that just because a bank produces a positive report on the debt restructuring of a company that automatically means they'll want to invest, but that doesn't make sense
http://actuarialopinions.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/liberty-travelers-anglo-irish-bank-are-quinn-finalists/
http://www.insuranceage.co.uk/insurance-age/news/2023859/zurich-joint-anglo-liberty-bid-leading-race-quinnQuinn Direct was loss making in 2009 & 2010 and is likely to be loss making in 2011. Liberty is predicting a profit in 2012. That's what I'm saying. Basically what you are saying is that it's OK to overstate profit and understate reserves. Doesn't work like that in insurance. Any insurance company could make a **** load of profit if they were not adequately provisioning against claims. The blame for understating reserves does not lie with Grant Thornton. They came in to clean up the mess. The blame lies with the previous management at Quinn Insurance and the wider Quinn Group.
And again I'll say every insurance company in Ireland made underwriting losses in 2009. Grant Thornton were in charge for most of 2010 so it's a moot point. The reality, whether you like it or not, Quinn Insurance was very profitable even allowing for the under-reserved claims. To such an extent that all of the other companies operating in Ireland have copied their claims model to varying degrees.
You're arguing that GT are doing a better job with no basis for that - the fact that they're looking for more money is as bad an indictment on their performance as you could get (administrators generally overstate requirements to make themselves look better when it's not all needed, so they clearly got it very very wrong). There's also no way that they didn't know the reserves situation - the vast majority of open Quinn claims relate to Ireland, so if they could get through that book in a matter of months prior to the closing of bids, there's no way it took 2 years to go through the UK book.
You're clearly not going to accept that SQ was better at running his businesses than his successors, but the reality is you can't put people with no experience in an industry, little experience with running successful businesses, very little staff buy-in, spooked suppliers, millions on millions in additional consultancy fees and expect a company to do well.
A lot of the criticism against Quinn is justified, but to argue that he didn't know how to run profitable businesses better than the pen pushers who replaced him is complete nonsense.0 -
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I'll quote again. That was in 2009.
.You said the company made losses in 2007, 2009 and 2010 and wasn't paying it's debts (you didn't stipulate 2009 til I called you on it). The were fully paid up in 2007, I presume you're now accepting that they did pay in 2009. 2010 showed almost 1bn in impairments: "The balance sheet net assets of the group at year end were in deficit to the tune of €249 million. The figure takes into account provisions of €957 million against related party loan balances."
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0511/1224315906378.html
So when exactly were these trading losses?
Look back on my original post - 2009 was clearly mentioned.. Also - http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1020537.shtml
Yep.Do you have any evidence to show that a distribution was made?
.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1102/1224257903340.html
€200 mil paid out to the Quinn children....
No it doesn't. It states that in April 2010, straight after the administrators were appointed Quinn Group were reported to be looking at financing to take on some of the Quinn insurance exposure and DB was one of the ones mentioned.The article states otherwise. DB Private Equity is clearly mentioned.
.
The report they did, was much later in the year and was in relation to the Quinn/ Anglo bid to take over Quinn Insurance when it was decided the company should be sold. Only insurance companies were in the running. Couple of articles listing the front runners below
Can you show me an article showing that they were in the bidding process to take over Quinn Insurance in line with the report they produced much later in that year? You can believe that just because a bank produces a positive report on the debt restructuring of a company that automatically means they'll want to invest, but that doesn't make sense
http://actuarialopinions.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/liberty-travelers-anglo-irish-bank-are-quinn-finalists/
http://www.insuranceage.co.uk/insurance-age/news/2023859/zurich-joint-anglo-liberty-bid-leading-race-quinn
Do you really want me to quote the article?Quinn Direct was loss making in 2009 & 2010 and is likely to be loss making in 2011. Liberty is predicting a profit in 2012. That's what I'm saying. Basically what you are saying is that it's OK to overstate profit and understate reserves. Doesn't work like that in insurance. Any insurance company could make a **** load of profit if they were not adequately provisioning against claims. The blame for understating reserves does not lie with Grant Thornton. They came in to clean up the mess. The blame lies with the previous management at Quinn Insurance and the wider Quinn Group.
And again I'll say every insurance company in Ireland made underwriting losses in 2009. Grant Thornton were in charge for most of 2010 so it's a moot point. The reality, whether you like it or not, Quinn Insurance was very profitable even allowing for the under-reserved claims. To such an extent that all of the other companies operating in Ireland have copied their claims model to varying degrees.
You're arguing that GT are doing a better job with no basis for that - the fact that they're looking for more money is as bad an indictment on their performance as you could get (administrators generally overstate requirements to make themselves look better when it's not all needed, so they clearly got it very very wrong). There's also no way that they didn't know the reserves situation - the vast majority of open Quinn claims relate to Ireland, so if they could get through that book in a matter of months prior to the closing of bids, there's no way it took 2 years to go through the UK book.
You're clearly not going to accept that SQ was better at running his businesses than his successors, but the reality is you can't put people with no experience in an industry, little experience with running successful businesses, very little staff buy-in, spooked suppliers, millions on millions in additional consultancy fees and expect a company to do well.
A lot of the criticism against Quinn is justified, but to argue that he didn't know how to run profitable businesses better than the pen pushers who replaced him is complete nonsense.
More nonsence. You clearly do not understand how an insurance company SHOULD operate.0 -
It was indeed. Along with 2007 and 2010, inflated by the interest repayments which you disagreed were being paid.Look back on my original post - 2009 was clearly mentioned.. Also - http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancen..._1020537.shtml
Of course not. Your understanding of the insurance industry and finance in general is quite impressive based on your inferences to date.More nonsence. You clearly do not understand how an insurance company SHOULD operate.
So what have we established so far:
Quinns weren't paying their loans. They made losses in 3 years. A consultancy firm would never approve a plan without investing the underlying company. Actuaries are responsible for claims reserves. DB providing financing to meet solvency requirements would have been the same as them taking over Quinn Insurance. Aiming for a profit at the start of the year is a wonderful wonderful thing. The quinn bankers "took a bath" when anglo took over (presumably a literal one).0 -
I just viewed the- Tonight with Vincent Browne show and I can not understand a word those two women are saying. How were they allowed to appear on this show ?.
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I can honestly say the noise the two women produced sounded like a bunch of farmyard chickens squabbling, not adult humans speaking.0
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I think Anglo would have went down anyway but Quinn defo had a major role to play...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-190634190 -
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I think Anglo would have went down anyway but Quinn defo had a major role to play...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-190634190
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