Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

SM35

kr7 wrote: »

SM35 wrote: »

If services are not funded, you get sh!te services. Only the rich can afford to pay privately for services, and the poor suffer. I am well off and do not mind paying council tax as it supports services for less well off.

I wouldn't describe myself as rich.

But I do pay for my own refuse collection (about €550 per year), I pay for my own sewage treatment system (€10,000 to install & €350 per year service charge) I pay for my kids schoolbooks/school transport, I pay €50 to see a doctor and extortionate prices for prescriptions, the list goes on and on.

I'm expected to pay the same as your council taxes on top of these.

Things that your council taxes pay for in the UK.

Well that is where people at home need to demand proper local services as part of tax reform... Lets say you forked out two grand a year BUT sewage water waste schooling libraries gym swimming pools for kids etc etc covered by this tax. I think more people would be in favour. Needs some joined up thinking and long term vision at political level...

alastair

pixiebean22 wrote: »

It's very simple for the government so, confirm that the HHC and the new property tax will be used to pay for "schooling water sewage waste collection preschool places for kids libraries public parks swimming pools etc etc." and that we will no longer have to pay for all of this separately as well and you might get a few more people in favour of it.

You want additional services for no additional funding? Property taxes are an attempt to get us to levels of funding that will be below what used to have.

cynder

kr7 wrote: »

SM35 wrote: »

If services are not funded, you get sh!te services. Only the rich can afford to pay privately for services, and the poor suffer. I am well off and do not mind paying council tax as it supports services for less well off.

I wouldn't describe myself as rich.

But I do pay for my own refuse collection (about €550 per year), I pay for my own sewage treatment system (€10,000 to install & €350 per year service charge) I pay for my kids schoolbooks/school transport, I pay €50 to see a doctor and extortionate prices for prescriptions, the list goes on and on.

I'm expected to pay the same as your council taxes on top of these.

Things that your council taxes pay for in the UK.

Don't forget UK get free health care and. 15 for any paper work the gp has to fill out like a sick cert, discounted prescriptions,

We pay for health insurance if we can afford it. We pay 60 to see a gp, up to 130 for meds, 15 for a prescription, 30 for blood work, 100 a&e charge even if it's just for 4 stitches.

Then there is overnight hospital fees. For a family of 5 it's a lot if money,

In the UK if you have a chronic illness prescriptions are free. Over here we still have to pay for thyroid meds and bp / heart meds and inhalers.

kr7

SM35 wrote: »

Well that is where people at home need to demand proper local services as part of tax reform... Lets say you forked out two grand a year BUT sewage water waste schooling libraries gym swimming pools for kids etc etc covered by this tax. I think more people would be in favour. Needs some joined up thinking and long term vision at political level...

I may have got you wrong at the start.

This is what me and a lot of the others against the household charge / property tax have been saying for a long time.

Another thing is the amount of people who won't have to pay.

Joined up thinking and long term vision a seriously scarce in this little country of ours.

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

When it's €1,000 and they lose their homes the LA's will have to re-house them.

How is anyone is going 'to lose their home' on the back of property taxes that are tied to the property?

The process in the UK:

Unpaid Council Tax

What if you still don't pay?

If you are unable to come to a payment arrangement with the council or if you make arrangements to pay but don’t, your council can ask the Magistrates’ Court for a ‘Liability Order’ (a demand for you to pay the full amount you owe, plus costs).

You have the right to attend the court and offer evidence as to why you are not liable for the debt. Even if you decide not to attend court, you should speak to the council or, if you prefer, your Local Citizens Advice Bureau. The council will try to come to a reasonable arrangement with you for payment but they cannot do that unless you contact them.
The consequences of ignoring a Liability Order

If the court makes a Liability Order against you, your council can take enforcement action against you in order to recover the debt. This will usually mean either deductions from wages and benefits or the use of bailiffs, although bankruptcy and charging orders are other options.
Deductions from wages

Your council can order your employer to deduct a regular amount from your wages toward your unpaid Council Tax. If this causes you financial hardship, you can ask your council if they're willing to accept smaller payments.

Deduction from benefits

Your council may be able to apply for deductions if you are receiving Jobseekers’ Allowance, Income Support or Pension Credit.
Bailiffs

Your council can send bailiffs to your home to seize property to sell. The money raised goes towards paying your debt, plus costs. The billing authority must send a letter two weeks before the bailiff’s first visit stating how much money you owe under the Liability Order.

You can contact the Council and the bailiffs and offer to come to an agreement on payments. It’s important to do this straight away, because if the bailiffs make a visit their costs could be added to your bill.
Court hearing

If your council has tried using bailiffs but your Council Tax still isn’t paid in full, they may apply to the Magistate’s Court for a warrant committing you to prison. The council will only take this step when other efforts have failed.

Before issuing a warrant of commitment the court must hold a means enquiry with you present. A warrant will only be issued if the court is satisfied that the failure to pay is the result of wilful refusal or culpable neglect. The maximum period of imprisonment is three months.

The court may decide to postpone the period of imprisonment on certain conditions, normally relating to payment of the debt over a period of time. The court also has the power to remit all or part of the debt.

daenerysstormborn3

alastair wrote: »

You want additional services for no additional funding? Property taxes are an attempt to get us to levels of funding that will be below what used to have.

No I don't want additional service for no additional funding. "schooling water sewage waste collection preschool places for kids libraries public parks swimming pools etc etc." - these services already exist and are paid for separately (as I already said), are we suddenly going to have to stop paying for these separately and just pay one amount through this property tax?

And as I already said, what about people who paid to install their own water pumps and their own septic tanks, will they pay less because they already provide themselves with these services?

cynder wrote: »

Don't forget UK get free health care and. 15 for any paper work the gp has to fill out like a sick cert, discounted prescriptions,

We pay for health insurance if we can afford it. We pay 60 to see a gp, up to 130 for meds, 15 for a prescription, 30 for blood work, 100 a&e charge even if it's just for 4 stitches.

Then there is overnight hospital fees. For a family of 5 it's a lot if money,

In the UK if you have a chronic illness prescriptions are free. Over here we still have to pay for thyroid meds and bp / heart meds and inhalers.

Exactly. I think the main question that posters in this thread are asking, that nobody seems able to answer, is "are we still going to have to pay for these services separately in addition to this new tax or is this new tax going to replace all of these separate payments"?

dxhound2005

kr7 wrote: »

When it's €1,000 and they lose their homes the LA's will have to re-house them.

Clever, real clever!

In a country which has €120 billion in private savings accounts, in which people spend €5 billion on foreign holidays and which has 1 million people paying the likes of Sky for TV I don't think too many will allow themselves to be moved into public housing for the sake of a few hundred Euro (speculative just like the €1000 figure). The citizens of nearly every other country in the world reconcile themselves to paying property taxes and it hasn't resulted in mass disposal of private property as far as I know.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

How is anyone is going 'to lose their home' on the back of property taxes that are tied to the property?

The process in the UK:

Deductions from source, bailiffs, sounds like a barrel of laughs for not paying ground rent on your own private property.

alastair

cynder wrote: »

Don't forget UK get free health care and. 15 for any paper work the gp has to fill out like a sick cert, discounted prescriptions,

We pay for health insurance if we can afford it. We pay 60 to see a gp, up to 130 for meds, 15 for a prescription, 30 for blood work, 100 a&e charge even if it's just for 4 stitches.

Then there is overnight hospital fees. For a family of 5 it's a lot if money,

In the UK if you have a chronic illness prescriptions are free. Over here we still have to pay for thyroid meds and bp / heart meds and inhalers.

The NHS has nothing to do with the Council Tax, property taxation, or local authorities.

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

Deductions from source, bailiffs, sounds like a barrel of laughs for not paying ground rent on your own private property.

It's not ground rent - it's property tax. And yes - bad ****e happens if you don't pay your taxes.

golden lane

cynder wrote: »

Don't forget UK get free health care and. 15 for any paper work the gp has to fill out like a sick cert, discounted prescriptions,

We pay for health insurance if we can afford it. We pay 60 to see a gp, up to 130 for meds, 15 for a prescription, 30 for blood work, 100 a&e charge even if it's just for 4 stitches.

Then there is overnight hospital fees. For a family of 5 it's a lot if money,

In the UK if you have a chronic illness prescriptions are free. Over here we still have to pay for thyroid meds and bp / heart meds and inhalers.

it is really not a good idea to compare both systems......the differences are too widespread..

councils vary across the uk....

kr7

Because the extra €1,000 per year could be the last straw for people who can hardly pay their mortgages as it is.

Home repossessions will go through the roof and the LA's will have to house / pay for the housing needs of these people.

Don't let that little detail bother you though.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

It's not ground rent - it's property tax. And yes - bad ****e happens if you don't pay your taxes.

What befell you for avoiding the poll tax?

bgrizzley

alastair wrote: »

How is anyone is going 'to lose their home' on the back of property taxes that are tied to the property?

The process in the UK:

this is the process in the usa, another bastion of those fine property taxes

http://money.cnn.com/2012/07/10/real_estate/tax-liens/index.htm

kr7

Ghandee wrote: »

What befell you for avoiding the poll tax?

Plane ticket and GTFO.....:D

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

The NHS has nothing to do with the Council Tax, property taxation, or local authorities.

Its covered by rates in the six counties though. (as in health care) ask dx if you doubt me

dxhound2005

kr7 wrote: »

Because the extra €1,000 per year could be the last straw for people who can hardly pay their mortgages as it is.

Home repossessions will go through the roof and the LA's will have to house / pay for the housing needs of these people.

Don't let that little detail bother you though.

Have your heard of Mortgage Interest Supplement? People getting that can apply for a waiver from the Household Charge.

cynder

alastair wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

Don't forget UK get free health care and. 15 for any paper work the gp has to fill out like a sick cert, discounted prescriptions,

We pay for health insurance if we can afford it. We pay 60 to see a gp, up to 130 for meds, 15 for a prescription, 30 for blood work, 100 a&e charge even if it's just for 4 stitches.

Then there is overnight hospital fees. For a family of 5 it's a lot if money,

In the UK if you have a chronic illness prescriptions are free. Over here we still have to pay for thyroid meds and bp / heart meds and inhalers.

The NHS has nothing to do with the Council Tax, property taxation, or local authorities.

I'm well aware of that but it's one less fee the UK citizens have to fork out...

We Irish have to pay it or we would die.

We spend 4k on medical bills a year. Because we don't get a medical card...

Or free health care.

You see just because we don't pay 2800 council tax we pay for our health care, now they want us to pay more property tax....

alastair

pixiebean22 wrote: »

No I don't want additional service for no additional funding. "schooling water sewage waste collection preschool places for kids libraries public parks swimming pools etc etc." - these services already exist and are paid for separately (as I already said), are we suddenly going to have to stop paying for these separately and just pay one amount through this property tax?

You pay a private firm for refuse collection. If there's a main sewage system in your area, then it's paid for in your taxes, schooling isn't a local authority function, most people are on a main water supply, local authorities don't supply preschools, iibraries are part of local authority services, as are parks, and in some cases; pools. If you want services that aren't currently covered, that would be 'additional' and 'for no additional funding'.

pixiebean22 wrote: »

And as I already said, what about people who paid to install their own water pumps and their own septic tanks, will they pay less because they already provide themselves with these services?

There are state subsidies for group water schemes aren't there?

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Exactly. I think the main question that posters in this thread are asking, that nobody seems able to answer, is "are we still going to have to pay for these services separately in addition to this new tax or is this new tax going to replace all of these separate payments"?

The new tax supplements the inadequate tax funding for existing services.

daenerysstormborn3

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Have your heard of Mortgage Interest Supplement? People getting that can apply for a waiver from the Household Charge.

What about people who never even had a mortgage, should they not be entitled to a waiver also?

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

Its covered by rates in the six counties though. (as in health care) ask dx if you doubt me

NI council health services aren't much different to what local authorities get involved in here - any real health services beyond information provision are NHS operated/funded.

kr7

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Have your heard of Mortgage Interest Supplement? People getting that can apply for a waiver from the Household Charge.

What's the point?

So people on the dole are buried even more into the unemployment trap?

Joined up thinking is needed here.

The whole taxation and welfare system needs to be dismantled and rebuilt.

Middle class Ireland is getting it from all directions while the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting buried in the unemployment trap.

Corben Dallas

No cant afford, therefore not paying.

Main issue about the property change,
ie 'we charge you for privilege of living in your own house tax' is that the Government is basically lying to us, " ....its essential so we can pay for local authority services..." BULL!!!

Your tax pays for this, PAYE, VAT, VRT etc etc etc always has done (how did the LA ever manage before??? >> cause Govn paid them to run councils /LA's/services from the national tax take)

The Property Charge is being forced upon us by us by IMF/Troika Etc to pay for bailout money received. Please stop lying to the Irish People and stop trying to dress this up as it pays for LA/ housing services.

None of this money will be 'ring-fenced' for services, it will go straight to ECB/IMF and EU vaults. End of.

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

What befell you for avoiding the poll tax?

I went back to paying council tax - and subsequently NI rates. That's because the poll tax was acknowledged as an actual unjust system of taxation.

daenerysstormborn3

alastair wrote: »

You pay a private firm for refuse collection. If there's a main sewage system in your area, then it's paid for in your taxes, schooling isn't a local authority function, most people are on a main water supply, local authorities don't supply preschools, iibraries are part of local authority services, as are parks, and in some cases; pools. If you want services that aren't currently covered, that would be 'additional' and 'for no additional funding'.

There are state subsidies for group water schemes aren't there?

The new tax supplements the inadequate tax funding for existing services.

I don't pay a private firm for refuse collection. I have a septic tank. I didn't say that schooling, preschools is a local authority function, I quoted someone else who suggested that because they get x and y for the amount they pay then we should be happy to pay whatever amount the government come up with regardless of what services they intend providing.

I'm not part of a group water scheme.

alastair

Corben Dallas wrote: »

No cant afford, therefore not paying.

Main issue about the property change,
ie 'we charge you for privilege of living in your own house tax' is that the Government is basically lying to us, " ....its essential so we can pay for local authority services..." BULL!!!

Your tax pays for this, VAT, VRT etc etc etc always has done (how did the LA ever manage before??? >> cause Govn paid them to run councils /LA's/services from the national tax take)

The Property Charge is being forced upon us by us by IMF/Troika Etc to pay for bailout money received. Please stop lying to the Irish People and stop trying to dress this up as it pays for LA/ housing services.

None of this money will be 'ring-fenced' for services, it will go straight to ECB/IMF and EU vaults. End of.

End of - except that the money is ringfenced for local authorities, and we're not paying enough taxes to cover local authority services.

kr7

That's not what he meant alastair.

alastair

pixiebean22 wrote: »

I don't pay a private firm for refuse collection. I have a septic tank. I didn't say that schooling, preschools is a local authority function, I quoted someone else who suggested that because they get x and y for the amount they pay then we should be happy to pay whatever amount the government come up with regardless of what services they intend providing.

I'm not part of a group water scheme.

Where's your refuse going then?

We won't be asked to pay UK levels of taxation for local authority services, so you wouldn't expect UK levels of service provision.

dxhound2005

kr7 wrote: »

What's the point?

So people on the dole are buried even more into the unemployment trap?

Joined up thinking is needed here.

The whole taxation system needs to be dismantled and rebuilt.

Middle class Ireland is getting it from all directions while the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting buried in the unemployment trap.

You'll be waiting for a while to see the whole taxation system rebuilt. In the meantime we can make it a bit more like other developed countries by adding property tax to the mix.

Significant strides have been made by the Revenue Commissioners to recover unpaid tax from the likes of the holders of undeclared offshore accounts. They take in about €120 million quarterly from this exercise and publish the names of the worst offenders.

daenerysstormborn3

alastair wrote: »

Where's your refuse going then?

We won't be asked to pay UK levels of taxation for local authority services, so you wouldn't expect UK levels of service provision.

How do you know we won't be asked to pay UK levels of taxation? I don't expect UK levels of service provision, however, I do object to people who use it as a prop for their argument that we should pay whatever tax the government throws at us. There are posters here saying they live in the UK and that they pay x amount and get various things in return so therefore we should just suck it up regardless of the information we've been provided it with so far.