Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

Chips Lovell

Ghandee wrote: »

Exactly why it shouldnt be paid.

What I was asking is that should all other instances of double taxation be abolished too?

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

What I was asking is that should all other instances of double taxation be abolished too?

Probably, yes.

But at least with this 'upcoming one' we have a chance to nip it in the bud before it sees the light of day.

Incidentally, because something is wrong but still happens on one thing, does not mean its acceptable to carry it on to another.

alastair

Ray Palmer wrote: »

In fairness this is a new tax. Adding it to people who already paid a tax recently. It simply isn't the same. There should be considered in the time of transition.
Effort rivet you can have neighbours with one household paying 36 k in tax and another 1 k over a 10 year period. Not a fair equal tax system. Which is what you need for compliance.

All taxes are new at some point. Was there a transition period for the USC?

It's (property tax) never going to be an equal tax - it's specifically for house owners. Motor tax is not an equal tax either.

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

But at least with this 'upcoming one' we have a chance to nip it in the bud before it sees the light of day.

Because we don't have a deficit to bridge, or because it's not being advocated by the only viable coalition partners in the next government, or because we haven't been committed to it on the back of our bail-out terms?

Dream on.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

Because we don't have a deficit to bridge, or because it's not being advocated by the only viable coalition partners in the next government, or because we haven't been committed to it on the back of our bail-out terms?

Dream on.

How do you consider it a 'dream' for the vast majority of the population to stand up and say no to a scam of a tax?

(its already happening)

Dub XV

alastair wrote: »

Are you looking for equivalent discounts on your motor tax / TV licence / VAT etc?

Money is so tight I'll take a discount anywhere Al.

kr7

jmayo wrote: »

I just love the way that property related threads reach a point where anyone that does not agree with the property owning types end up getting labelled as whingers, begrudgers, trolls, etc.

Alastair isn't just anyone though, he is the king of the trolls.

I will sit and have a discussion with anyone regarding this proposed tax as long as it's a fair and honest discussion.

This chap just rubs everyone up the wrong way, you should read some of his other posts on different threads.

Anyway he's on my ignore list from now on so hopefully we can continue with a constructive discussion.

K.

Ray Palmer

alastair wrote: »

Ray Palmer wrote: »

In fairness this is a new tax. Adding it to people who already paid a tax recently. It simply isn't the same. There should be considered in the time of transition.
Effort rivet you can have neighbours with one household paying 36 k in tax and another 1 k over a 10 year period. Not a fair equal tax system. Which is what you need for compliance.

All taxes are new at some point. Was there a transition period for the USC?

It's (property tax) never going to be an equal tax - it's specifically for house owners. Motor tax is not an equal tax either.

Yes all taxes are new at some point. USC was applied to all with a scale for equality. There was no situation where somebody would pay more for the same income. No transition needed.

Motor tax is equal in that it has a rating system. It was transitioned in. You dont have people who paid massively more than somebody else with the same car.
At the moment you will have people paying many many times more in tax for the same things.
This being applied on the most expensive item people own makes it worse. Applied on a negative equity situation with inability to move makes it worse again.
You obviously think people should be punished as opposed to want a fair tax system. This isn't a case of double taxation it is a case of double taxation for some and not others. That is a big issue. It doesn't really effect me but I can see it as unfair.

Don't get why you can't see that. Fine if you don't care but ignoring the valid point is entirely different.

Micky Dolenz

Mod

Baiting and flaming will see you banned. It just ruins a discussion.
Please report any posts you have issue with.

Fair warning.

dvpower

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Motor tax is equal in that it has a rating system. It was transitioned in. You dont have people who paid massively more than somebody else with the same car.

The proposed property tax will also have a rating system.

I see reports that there may be a 'super' property tax for very expensive large houses.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

The proposed property tax will also have a rating system.

I see reports that there may be a 'super' property tax for very expensive large houses.

What happens if people who bought houses in better times which had 4/5 bedrooms?. Those houses are not worth nearly as much now and the owners might be struggling.
They can't sell them and are stuck with them and now are going to be hit with extra-high property tax. Not everyone with a big house should be hit with a big tax, there are those who could afford it and those who might not be able to.

Chips Lovell

Original Indo story is here. I'm not sure if this isn't old news, in that it's long been flagged the tax will relate to the value of the house.

Dub XV

dvpower wrote: »

The proposed property tax will also have a rating system.

I see reports that there may be a 'super' property tax for very expensive large houses.

What about small expensive houses? Or large but cheap ones?

They have no idea what they are doing. Just throwing the grenade into the crowd and standing back to admire the damage.

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Original Indo story is here. I'm not sure if this isn't old news, in that it's long been flagged the tax will relate to the value of the house.

Some very good comments underneath that article too.

Chips Lovell

Dub XV wrote: »

What about small expensive houses? Or large but cheap ones?

They have no idea what they are doing. Just throwing the grenade into the crowd and standing back to admire the damage.

It's value, not size, they say.

Under the proposals, the rate of tax levied would rise with the value of the property, the Irish Independent has learned.

dvpower

Dub XV wrote: »

What about small expensive houses? Or large but cheap ones?

Did you read either of the linked articles?

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It's value, not size, they say.

Who values the house?

Self evaluation, wide open to abuse.

Someone sent to value the house, bribed to under value.


The true value of any house can only accurately be decided when house is sold imo.

dvpower

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Original Indo story is here. I'm not sure if this isn't old news, in that it's long been flagged the tax will relate to the value of the house.

True. I'm not sure of the idea of a 'super' property tax was something new to suggest an exceptionally high rate for really expensive houses or just the Indo putting their own slant on it.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Who values the house?

Self evaluation, wide open to abuse.

Someone sent to value the house, bribed to under value.

Maybe a third way - or a hybrid.

Ghandee wrote: »

The true value of any house can only accurately be decided when house is sold imo.

Bingo - they might use the new property price database as a control.
You should apply for a job in the Dept of the Environment.

jmayo

kr7 wrote: »

Alastair isn't just anyone though, he is the king of the trolls.

I will sit and have a discussion with anyone regarding this proposed tax as long as it's a fair and honest discussion.

This chap just rubs everyone up the wrong way, you should read some of his other posts on different threads.

Anyway he's on my ignore list from now on so hopefully we can continue with a constructive discussion.

K.

I am not familiar with their work so don't know.

I do know I stand by my point that I have found a lot of people who pro property, pro property related bailouts and anti property taxes to get very tetchy with those that do not subscribe to their opinions that others should help pay for their properties.

tayto lover wrote: »

What happens if people who bought houses in better times which had 4/5 bedrooms?. Those houses are not worth nearly as much now and the owners might be struggling.
They can't sell them and are stuck with them and now are going to be hit with extra-high property tax. Not everyone with a big house should be hit with a big tax, there are those who could afford it and those who might not be able to.

Sorry, but tough.
A property tax has to be based on the property valuation not the ability of someone to pay it because they financially overstretched themselves or because they are not earning enough to cover their outgoings.

If we disregard the property valuation then this will just be another tax on income and infact will be a tax on those who didn't over stretch buying property they could not afford if the good times did not continue.

There can be breaks given for those who are old age pensioners (with portion of taxes to come out after they have passed away) or on those temporarily unemployed but that should be it.
Again note the word temporary, this break should not be used as another perk of staying on the dole.

Irish people as has been become shown on discussions shows (Radio and TV) and internet forums think that the level of tax they pay and thus their net spendable income should be determined by their outgoings and not the other way around.

I would like to ask all those who are anti property tax to state whether they have multiple properties or just a home.

I will lay my cards on the table that I do have property, but I also rent.
I expect to pay property tax on the property I own, but no way on the property I rent from someone else.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Bingo - they might use the new property price database as a control.
You should apply for a job in the Dept of the Environment.

Bah.......

I did already, they said don't call us, we'll call you (13 years ago) still waiting on that call though:cool:

Dub XV

dvpower wrote: »

Did you read either of the linked articles?

Ffs What?

I only quoted one, and made a comment on one. Did you read my post correctly.

The report I responded to started:

People with big houses could have to fork out more for the upcoming property tax.
According to the Irish Independent the government’s considering imposing a so-called ‘super property tax’ on those with large expensive homes.

Somebody else then posted the Independent link before I posted my comment.

Dub XV

jmayo wrote: »

I am not familiar with their work so don't know.

I do know I stand by my point that I have found a lot of people who pro property, pro property related bailouts and anti property taxes to get very tetchy with those that do not subscribe to their opinions that others should help pay for their properties.



Sorry, but tough.
A property tax has to be based on the property valuation not the ability of someone to pay it because they financially overstretched themselves or because they are not earning enough to cover their outgoings.

I am covering my outgoings. But I may struggle if the government apply an extra tax, at whatever level they see fit, whenever they see fit!

There is a limit to what people can pay. Somebody may have a large house because they have a large family.......It's a family tax then?

Ray Palmer

dvpower wrote: »

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Motor tax is equal in that it has a rating system. It was transitioned in. You dont have people who paid massively more than somebody else with the same car.

The proposed property tax will also have a rating system.

I see reports that there may be a 'super' property tax for very expensive large houses.

Again choosing to ignore the issue of double tax on some.
It isn't comparable mainly due to the restriction of movement involved in a property. They also transitioned in motor tax changes. No doubt you will ignore that too.

alastair

There's no double taxation - any more than any other random combo of taxation could be considered 'double taxation' - income tax and dog licence - double taxation!

Property tax will be scaled on a mechanism we haven't heard about yet - but it will be scaled.

Motor tax wasn't transitioned in btw - it just grew over time - as property taxes will too, no doubt.

dvpower

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Again choosing to ignore the issue of double tax on some.

I didn't think I was ignoring it before

dvpower

Dub XV wrote: »

Somebody may have a large house because they have a large family.......It's a family tax then?

People might a buy bigger car because they have a large family - does this make VRT or VAT a family tax?

Dub XV

alastair wrote: »

There's no double taxation - any more than any other random combo of taxation could be considered 'double taxation' - income tax and dog licence - double taxation!

Property tax will be scaled on a mechanism we haven't heard about yet - but it will be scaled.

Motor tax wasn't transitioned in btw - it just grew over time - as property taxes will too, no doubt.

Taking your analogy I could call it Triple Taxation - Stamp Duty, Property Tax and Income Tax :rolleyes:

kr7

I see the old car and motor tax arguments roll on.

The best argument that the pro-taxers can come up with to justify a tax against people who cost the state nothing to house, indeed through buying their houses during the boom paid a massive amount of stamp duty and VAT directly to the exchequer.

This tax will be defeated, the fight only starts next year.

This years HHC was only a dirty underhanded way of getting peoples details.

I haven't registered, I won't register and I won't pay ground rent to anyone.

Bring it on......

kr7

Dub XV wrote: »

Taking your analogy I could call it Triple Taxation - Stamp Duty, Property Tax and Income Tax :rolleyes:

Don't forget the VAT you paid on your home too.