Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

Chips Lovell

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Who pay inheritance tax, cgt and stamp duty if they buy other people's portions.

That's their tax liability, not yours.

alastair

out da lough wrote: »

No it doesn't.

Or in pantomime language, "Oh no it doesn't."

I can go into excruciatingly boring detail as to how easy it is for people to get the benefit of "their" assets without being technically the beneficial owners of them if you wish.

A property held in trust would be liable to an annual levy - you'd be saving nothing.

http://www.oconnellbrennan.ie/storage/ITR%20Issue2%202012_SO'Connell%20%20CBrennan.pdf

out da lough

alastair wrote: »

A property held in trust would be liable to an annual levy - you'd be saving nothing.

http://www.oconnellbrennan.ie/storage/ITR%20Issue2%202012_SO'Connell%20%20CBrennan.pdf

Read the exemption clauses.

If the trust is set up as part of a pension fund then it is exempt. If the property is of historical significance, (like Minister For Health's James Reilly's house in Co. Offaly) then it too is exempt.

But there are a myriad of ways around these scams.

For instance, one could start a company, and rent a room in your house to that company. The company could then write the costs of this rent off it's annual tax bill. You could give a director's loan of ten thousand euro a year to the company in order to help the company pay it's reporting charges. The company could then hire your spouse and pay him or her €7,000 a year as an administrator.


You could register your car in the name of the company, apply for a PSV licence and call the company a taxi company. Then you could drive in the bus lanes as well, and offset all operating costs, wear and tear, depreciation and so on against corporation tax. Like Michael O' Leary does. You could even claim the VAT back on the diesel.



Shall I go on?

And on...and on...and on....


You cannot levy a tax on people who have the wherewithal to avoid it without being aware of the ways people will come up with to avoid aforementioned tax.

alastair

out da lough wrote: »

You cannot levy a tax on people who have the wherewithal to avoid it without being aware of the ways people will come up with to avoid aforementioned tax.

I can see one simple enough bit of legislation that would counter all of the above - the act that brings in next year's property tax simply doesn't allow for exemptions for discretionary trusts. The legislation has still to be drafted.

noodler

out da lough wrote: »

You cannot levy a tax on people who have the wherewithal to avoid it without being aware of the ways people will come up with to avoid aforementioned tax.

I have never heard such bullsh1t in all my life.

How do you think other OECD countries get over this?

Not implementing a tax because some legislative chnages will be required to ensure a small minority comply is insanity and no society would get anywhere if this attitude was adpoted.

Chips Lovell

There are myriads of ways to minimise your income tax liability but I don't see that as the basis for calls that it be abolished. Instead we see loopholes being progressively closed down as they are uncovered. I don't see why the Property Tax need be any different.

kr7

donalg1 wrote: »

But there is no property tax at the minute and yet the above is not happening.

So do you think that by bringing in more taxes that will effect peoples spending power at this moment in time is a good idea then?

noodler

kr7 wrote: »

So do you think that by bringing in more taxes at this moment in time is a good idea then?

15bn deficit?

It is a necessity.

tayto lover

Dub XV wrote: »

Also I couldnt care less if they smiled or not as long as they are capable of doing their jobs.

I admire these people. I don't think they decided on this career driven by money.

There are far easier ways to make it.

Yes but many of the best and most highly trained nurses have emigrated to other countries where they get far higher wages and conditions like Saudi Arabia. We want the best here and should be prepared to pay them the proper rate. BUT we need to get rid of many of the useless managers and administrators who are ruining the service and driving the cream out.

Ray Palmer

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Who pay inheritance tax, cgt and stamp duty if they buy other people's portions.

That's their tax liability, not yours.

Tax on property is tax on property. The claim was tax isn't been paid when it clearly is.
How many times should tax be paid on the same thing? I paid stamp duty which is a tax on property. Technically a transaction tax it is a tax on property. Only pendants like to say it is not.
General taxation was meant for LA funding.

Other countries have property tax but not all the other taxes and service charges too.

kr7

noodler wrote: »

15bn deficit?

It is a necessity.

How will the deficit decrease if the amount we pay in welfare continues to increase because of rising unemployment caused by the collapse in the domestic economy?

Downward spiral.

donalg1

kr7 wrote: »

So do you think that by bringing in more taxes that will effect peoples spending power at this moment in time is a good idea then?

Not bringing it in wont change anything which is the point I am making. You think that if people dont have to pay a property tax then they will spend all their money in the local economy which will create jobs and get loads of people off of welfare. I simply said there is no property tax at the minute and this is not happening.

alastair

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Tax on property is tax on property. The claim was tax isn't been paid when it clearly is.
How many times should tax be paid on the same thing? I paid stamp duty which is a tax on property. Technically a transaction tax it is a tax on property. Only pendants like to say it is not.
General taxation was meant for LA funding.

Other countries have property tax but not all the other taxes and service charges too.

They certainly do. Germany for one. Even allowing for all peripheral taxes - we're still low down on the European tax-liability charts.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-DU-09-001/EN/KS-DU-09-001-EN.PDF

tayto lover

alastair wrote: »

For what it's worth, the lord mayor of Barcelona is also paid more than the Spanish Prime Minister.

I probably earn more than you Al but I have to run a home and feed 23 children.

tayto lover

Red_Wake wrote: »

Before the recession, the people of scenario 2 would be considered the fools, tbf.

So would the people who worked in the Public Sector in fairness, but not many think of that now. The two Sectors should be uniting in the fight against wage cuts and HHC/PT instead of being divided.

out da lough

noodler wrote: »

I have never heard such bullsh1t in all my life.

How do you think other OECD countries get over this?

Not implementing a tax because some legislative chnages will be required to ensure a small minority comply is insanity and no society would get anywhere if this attitude was adpoted.

You think that's bad? How about a situation where a person owns a limited company.

He pays tax at the top rate. He then hires his stay at home partner and pays her €20,000 per annum and reduces his own salary by an equivalent amount.

Since she is below the minimum tax threshold, she pays no tax.

So as a couple they are better off by over €4,000 a year.

You can thank "individualisation" for that. It was originally designed to encourage stay at home spouses back into the workforce.

Next.

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It may be worth less than you paid for it, but it is still an asset of value. An asset that non-property owners do not possess and will not benefit from further down the line.

But all the while they have been paying a mortgage, Stamp duty etc.
The other couple have probably being saving. Their savings are their asset.

alastair

tayto lover wrote: »

So would the people who worked in the Public Sector in fairness, but not many think of that now. The two Sectors should be uniting in the fight against wage cuts and HHC/PT instead of being divided.

So - no advocacy for public sector salary cuts from this particular tax protester?

alastair

tayto lover wrote: »

But all the while they have been paying a mortgage, Stamp duty etc.
The other couple have probably being saving. Their savings are their asset.

They'll need them for all those years of paying rent in their retirement. Taxes liable on those savings too.

tayto lover

out da lough wrote: »

The main beneficiaries of this new regime will be estate agents, valuers, property management agencies, solicitors and accountants.

The main occupations listed by Fine Gael TD's are estate agents, solicitors, accountants, farmers, and teachers.

Now why does that not surprise me !!

out da lough

tayto lover wrote: »

So would the people who worked in the Public Sector in fairness, but not many think of that now. The two Sectors should be uniting in the fight against wage cuts and HHC/PT instead of being divided.

This line is regularly trotted out (mainly by those in the public sector), but security of employment is one of the main differences between most (note, I said most, not all, before we start going on about contract workers) public sector and private sector workers.

Incremental pay increases, double the amount of absenteeism, and defined benefit pensions are other differences that show up when one looks at the public sector and compares and contrasts it with the private sector.

CIE got an "emergency subvention" of €36 Million from the state last week.


Most private sector companies trying to compete with this state company would probably have gone bust.

mikom

alastair wrote: »

They'll need them for all those years of paying rent in their retirement. Taxes liable on those savings too.

Mattress tax?

Chips Lovell

tayto lover wrote: »

But all the while they have been paying a mortgage, Stamp duty etc.
The other couple have probably being saving. Their savings are their asset.

They'll also have been paying rent. Which they'll get nothing for in the end.

out da lough

What I have learned from reading this debate during the day, is that there are huge inequalities and discrepancies in the overall tax and welfare system in this country.

I believe that the lack of confidence in the equity or fairness of the taxation system in Ireland is beginning to finally dawn on many compliant tax payers who have paid their taxes and taken cuts over the past four years while other sections of society have continued to be insulated from the ravages of the recession.

I feel that the failure of the government to collect the household charge is indicative of a growing resistance amongst what may be referred to as "the coping classes" when it comes to stumping up more money.

alastair

I believe you're miles off the mark.

People have never been happy to pay taxes - and the penalty for paying this one late was pitched at comedy level, so there was precious little incentive to pay in a timely manner.

donalg1

out da lough wrote: »

This line is regularly trotted out (mainly by those in the public sector), but security of employment is one of the main differences between most (note, I said most, not all, before we start going on about contract workers) public sector and private sector workers.

Incremental pay increases, double the amount of absenteeism, and defined benefit pensions are other differences that show up when one looks at the public sector and compares and contrasts it with the private sector.

CIE got an "emergency subvention" of €36 Million from the state last week.


Most private sector companies trying to compete with this state company would probably have gone bust.

How do you know that public sector absenteeism is double that of the private sector. Yes it can be recoreded and collated in the public sector but not the private so whatever report claims this is wrong. The pensions however are something to be looked at but then you have to consider that the current workers would need to be refunded everything they have paid into the pension scheme and also the pension levy would need to be scrapped.

Look people in the private sector are now giving out about those in the public sector saying its not fair that they have a secure job, yet the same people were laughing at the people in the public sector during the boom for working in the public sector when they could be making a killing in the private sector. Also there was nothing stopping anyone in the private sector from getting a job in the public sector and getting job security.

Ray Palmer

alastair wrote: »

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Tax on property is tax on property. The claim was tax isn't been paid when it clearly is.
How many times should tax be paid on the same thing? I paid stamp duty which is a tax on property. Technically a transaction tax it is a tax on property. Only pendants like to say it is not.
General taxation was meant for LA funding.

Other countries have property tax but not all the other taxes and service charges too.

They certainly do. Germany for one. Even allowing for all peripheral taxes - we're still low down on the European tax-liability charts.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-DU-09-001/EN/KS-DU-09-001-EN.PDF

Can't open the link. Anyway I am sure it is a selective view. As I know that they charge rates to residents not just property owners.
The personal taxation is less and they get more services than we do.
Do a comparison on tax and what services you get and we do quite badly in Europe.

alastair

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Can't open the link. Anyway I am sure it is a selective view.

If you consider eurostat selective - I guess?

noodler

donalg1 wrote: »

How do you know that public sector absenteeism is double that of the private sector.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2011/1209/ireland/500m-lost-to-absenteeism-in-public-sector-176620.html

I am sure Howlin has said it publicly more recently as well.

tayto lover

alastair wrote: »

So - no advocacy for public sector salary cuts from this particular tax protester?

Only at the top Al and a big reduction in Chiefs. Leave the Indians alone.