Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

donalg1

noodler wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2011/1209/ireland/500m-lost-to-absenteeism-in-public-sector-176620.html

I am sure Howlin has said it publicly more recently as well.

But how did they come up with the figures for the private sector I know I wasnt asked or anyone in my workplace for that matter.

daenerysstormborn3

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0719/breaking25.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/public-sector-sick-leave-to-be-halved-but-not-for-another-year-3174218.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/sick-leave-a-bigger-problem-in-public-sector-200951.html

noodler

donalg1 wrote: »

But how did they come up with the figures for the private sector I know I wasnt asked or anyone in my workplace for that matter.

CSO?
Survey?

The same way we get most statistics from the Private Sector.

Same way we get figures on average weekly pay rates for the Quarterly 'Hourly Earnings and Labour Costs" release from the CSO I would wager.

donalg1

noodler wrote: »

CSO?
Survey?

The same way get get most statistics from the Private Sector.

Same way we get figures on average weekly pay rates for the Quarterly 'Hourly Earnings and Labour Costs" release from the CSO I would wager.

So they dont actually have any figures for the private sector then, the article you posted doesnt show this, I was just wondering if there were some around, I remember this discussion from when that article was published and someone asked the same question but it wasnt answered Im just curious if anything else has come out about it.

alastair

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Can't open the link. Anyway I am sure it is a selective view. As I know that they charge rates to residents not just property owners.
The personal taxation is less and they get more services than we do.
Do a comparison on tax and what services you get and we do quite badly in Europe.

Germans pay similar personal taxation to here
They pay for obligatory health insurance
They pay water charges
They pay sewage charges
They pay refuse collection charges
They pay property tax
and they've a stamp duty equivalent at 3.5%

donalg1

pixiebean22 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0719/breaking25.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/public-sector-sick-leave-to-be-halved-but-not-for-another-year-3174218.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/sick-leave-a-bigger-problem-in-public-sector-200951.html

3 articles quoted and not one shows that sick leave in the public sector is twice that of the private sector. I simply asked where they got their figures for the private sector from. Comparing them sector by sector would mean taking the whole of the private sector and getting the average sick leave of all its employees 1.5m according to another poster here and comparing this to the 300k employees in the public sector.

noodler

donalg1 wrote: »

So they dont actually have any figures for the private sector then, the article you posted doesnt show this, I was just wondering if there were some around, I remember this discussion from when that article was published and someone asked the same question but it wasnt answered Im just curious if anything else has come out about it.

The Secretary General and Minister for PER are hardly lieing.

EDIT: Here, IBEC did the research for the private sector.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=Employee+Absenteeism:+A+guide+to+managing+absence&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibec.ie%2FIBEC%2FPublications.nsf%2FvPages%2FResearch_and_Survey_Reports~employee-absenteeism---a-guide-to-managing-absence%3FOpenDocument&ei=dqAaUPGTEYXNhAfftIHoDg&usg=AFQjCNE2kYEjTijB00edvDqikvH6D1sdNg&cad=rja

donalg1

noodler wrote: »

The Secretary General and Minister for PER are hardly lieing.

EDIT: Here, IBEC did the research for the private sector.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=Employee+Absenteeism:+A+guide+to+managing+absence&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibec.ie%2FIBEC%2FPublications.nsf%2FvPages%2FResearch_and_Survey_Reports~employee-absenteeism---a-guide-to-managing-absence%3FOpenDocument&ei=dqAaUPGTEYXNhAfftIHoDg&usg=AFQjCNE2kYEjTijB00edvDqikvH6D1sdNg&cad=rja

Where does it say anything about sick leave in the public sector being twice that of the public sector, I am on my phone so maybe am missing something on a desktop version looks to me like a few lines on a website.

I am not saying anyone is lying about the figures I am only asking those that shout the figures around here to provide a link to substantiate their claims thats all.

noodler

donalg1 wrote: »

Where does it say anything about sick leave in the public sector being twice that of the public sector, I am on my phone so maybe am missing something on a desktop version looks to me like a few lines on a website.

I am not saying anyone is lying about the figures I am only asking those that shout the figures around here to provide a link to substantiate their claims thats all.

??

It gives the rate for the private sector.

One of the FOUR Howling/Watt articles you have been provided shows the rate for the public sector.

Scepticism is one thing but its not really fair to ask everybody to do your own research for you.

alastair

There was an IBEC report which -presumably based on the 600 private sector companies and the civil service (not the public sector - just the civil service) came up with the following:

Private sector employers have invested significantly in reducing absenteeism rates in the last few years. A report published by IBEC last year ‘Employee Absenteeism: A guide to managing absence’ found that absenteeism rates in the private sector had reduced from an average of 7.8 days (3.38%) in 2004 to just 5.98 days (2.58%) in 2010.

This is compared to absenteeism rates of 11.3 days (4.9%) per employee in the civil service, which costs the State between €400m-€500m per year. More effective management of this issue should be a priority for Government.

The recent changes introduced for sick days in the public sector would seem to be what IBEC were seeking - and got.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0719/breaking25.html

What's not so clear to me is whether maternity leave is included in the absentee figures - because the IBEC preamble suggests they might include it. And the general make-up of the civil service would rather more young woman orientated than most employment sectors.

out da lough

donalg1 wrote: »

Where does it say anything about sick leave in the public sector being twice that of the public sector, I am on my phone so maybe am missing something on a desktop version looks to me like a few lines on a website.

I am not saying anyone is lying about the figures I am only asking those that shout the figures around here to provide a link to substantiate their claims thats all.

The original assessment was about absenteeism, not sick leave.

Ray Palmer

alastair wrote: »

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Can't open the link. Anyway I am sure it is a selective view.

If you consider eurostat selective - I guess?

Yes it is very selective. I used to work on it and it is all about the question being asked. For example if you say you are catholic you are charged a tax for the local church. How do they include that tax and relate it to irish tax?
Stamp duty on property purchase would be ignored as a property tax.
Some taxes are brought in specifically as to not show up in reports. Douching the stats is what gets done.

donalg1

alastair wrote: »

There was an IBEC report which -presumably based on the 600 private sector companies and the civil service (not the public sector - just the civil service) came up with the following:



The recent changes introduced for sick days in the public sector would seem to be what IBEC were seeking - and got.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0719/breaking25.html

What's not so clear to me is whether maternity leave is included in the absentee figures - because the IBEC preamble suggests they might include it. And the general make-up of the civil service would rather more young woman orientated than most employment sectors.

Thanks Alastair finally someone posting a proper link, I still need to question the fact that there are more than 600 companies in the private sector, and like you said the civil service only and not the public sector.

alastair

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Yes it is very selective. I used to work on it and it is all about the question being asked. For example if you say you are catholic you are charged a tax for the local church. How do they include that tax and relate it to irish tax?
Stamp duty on property purchase would be ignored as a property tax.
Some taxes are brought in specifically as to not show up in reports. Douching the stats is what gets done.

Why not open the (working) link and read for yourself? - it's not a questionnare - it's a comprehensive review of the state of play regarding taxation across all the EU. Church taxes and whether they're obligitory or not are indicated as discreet taxes.

kr7

tayto lover wrote: »

So would the people who worked in the Public Sector in fairness, but not many think of that now. The two Sectors should be uniting in the fight against wage cuts and HHC/PT instead of being divided.

How can donal thank this post tayto when he's on here arguing for the property tax all the time?

alastair

out da lough wrote: »

The original assessment was about absenteeism, not sick leave.

There's no real difference - absenteeism is normally apportioned to sickness by the absentees. 'Couldn't be bothered' doesn't arise that often!

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

How can donal thank this post tayto when he's on here arguing for the property tax all the time?

That's a mighty black and white world you must live in.

kr7

out da lough wrote: »

What I have learned from reading this debate during the day, is that there are huge inequalities and discrepancies in the overall tax and welfare system in this country.

I believe that the lack of confidence in the equity or fairness of the taxation system in Ireland is beginning to finally dawn on many compliant tax payers who have paid their taxes and taken cuts over the past four years while other sections of society have continued to be insulated from the ravages of the recession.

I feel that the failure of the government to collect the household charge is indicative of a growing resistance amongst what may be referred to as "the coping classes" when it comes to stumping up more money.

The defiance shown so has been mild, after all it's (the HHC) only a registration charge.

The real battle will start when they try to collect the property tax proper.

Bring it on.....I can't wait.

Ray Palmer

alastair wrote: »

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Can't open the link. Anyway I am sure it is a selective view. As I know that they charge rates to residents not just property owners.
The personal taxation is less and they get more services than we do.
Do a comparison on tax and what services you get and we do quite badly in Europe.

Germans pay similar personal taxation to here
They pay for obligatory health insurance
They pay water charges
They pay sewage charges
They pay refuse collection charges
They pay property tax
and they've a stamp duty equivalent at 3.5%

Income tax and prsi? Lower or higher? The property owner doesn't pay them for the tenants either.

kr7

donalg1 wrote: »

3 articles quoted and not one shows that sick leave in the public sector is twice that of the private sector. I simply asked where they got their figures for the private sector from. Comparing them sector by sector would mean taking the whole of the private sector and getting the average sick leave of all its employees 1.5m according to another poster here and comparing this to the 300k employees in the public sector.

What about the private sector.

The taxpayer doesn't pay the private sector.

alastair

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Income tax and prsi? Lower or higher? The property owner doesn't pay them for the tenants either.

Income tax is higher for most - lower top end rates* - fewer tax credits.
Social insurance is higher than here - between health, unemployment, and nursing care contributions**. Owners pay property tax - not tenants (though they might well pass the overhead on).

*oops! no - higher top end too - 45%

**

Contributions have to be made to pension insurance (19.9%) and unemployment insurance (3.0%) on salary up to EUR 5’600 per month (employer and employee pay half each), nursing care insurance on salary up to EUR 3’825 (1.95% for employer and employee and an extra 0.25% paid by a childless employee).

Health insurance is obligatory for employees with a salary of less than EUR 45'900 per year. The rate is 15.5%, with the employer paying 7.3% and the employee 8.2%. Employees whose income exceeds EUR 45’900 per year are entitled to elect whether to be insured by public or private health insurance.

Chips Lovell

Thread over in Politics now about Galway CC withdrawing services on the back of high non-payment levels

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056717402

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Thread over in Politics now about Galway CC withdrawing services on the back of high non-payment levels

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056717402

Well, Galway will look like something from a mad max movie next year when even more people refuse to pay a lot more than the hundred euro 'registration fee' this year.

Well done Galway!

Don't register, don't pay!

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

Well, Galway will look like something from a mad max movie next year when even more people refuse to pay a lot more than the hundred euro 'registration fee' this year.

Well done Galway!

Don't register, don't pay!

Yeah - it should be great!

Thank goodness the money goes to 'no services'*.


*
'no services' may include:

Suspension of housing grants to older people and people with disabilities
Withholding grants for various community initiatives including, burial ground maintenance, amenity grants, community and enterprise grants
Suspension of expenditure on library books
Reduction in resources across a broad range of front-line service areas including:
Litter control
Housing Maintenance
Road maintenance including pothole repairs and verge trimming
Bridge maintenance
Maintenance of public conveniences
Suspension of land drainage works
Funding for tourism projects
Funding to community projects (RAPID) in Tuam and Ballinasloe
Potential delay in recently announced Major Capital Water Services projects.
Fire Service

howamidifferent

Let those in local authority housing getting all the local services cough up for their housing maintenance.

alastair

howamidifferent wrote: »

Let those in local authority housing getting all the local services cough up for their housing maintenance.

Like those tenants in the private sector do?

howamidifferent

alastair wrote: »

Like those tenants in the private sector do?

What publicly funded housing maintenance do tenants in the private sector get?

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

Yeah - it should be great!

Thank goodness the money goes to 'no services'*.


*
'no services' may include:

Suspension of housing grants to older people and people with disabilities
Withholding grants for various community initiatives including, burial ground maintenance, amenity grants, community and enterprise grants
Suspension of expenditure on library books
Reduction in resources across a broad range of front-line service areas including:
Litter control
Housing Maintenance
Road maintenance including pothole repairs and verge trimming
Bridge maintenance
Maintenance of public conveniences
Suspension of land drainage works
Funding for tourism projects
Funding to community projects (RAPID) in Tuam and Ballinasloe
Potential delay in recently announced Major Capital Water Services projects.
Fire Service

The letter received from the Department of Environment, Community & Local Government does however suggest that local authorities may progressively regain their original level of funding if those households who have not yet paid their Household Charge do so.

carrot on a stick:pac:

How do we know that even if Galway reported 100% Compliance they wouldnt have gotten cuts to services anyway, due to 'the times we're in?

The Council acknowledges that more than 56% of the Householders in Galway have paid the charge, which is much appreciated and urges those householders who have not yet paid, to do so immediately, in order that the impact of the cuts on local services and communities can be minimised.

Sounds like a bribe request tbh.

Interesting to see the fire service is affected (they musnt be charging in Galway?)

alastair

howamidifferent wrote: »

What publicly funded housing maintenance do tenants in the private sector get?

None - but they get a whole bunch of privately funded landlord maintenance.

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

Interesting to see the fire service is affected (they musnt be charging in Galway?)

You think that callout charges for fire engines would pay for the service - anywhere!? :eek: