Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

howamidifferent

alastair wrote: »

None - but they get a whole bunch of privately funded landlord maintenance.

What's that got to do with a household charge?

alastair

howamidifferent wrote: »

What's that got to do with a household charge?

Why would you expect public housing tenants to pay for maintenance when private tenants don't?

howamidifferent

alastair wrote: »

Why would you expect public housing tenants to pay for maintenance when private tenants don't?

Maybe cos its maintenance on the house THEY live in? :rolleyes:

And any landlord knowing what he/she is doing will have factored in his costs into his rent.

alastair

howamidifferent wrote: »

Maybe cos its maintenance on the house THEY live in? :rolleyes:

What exactly are the private sector tenants doing then? Bunking in elsewhere?

howamidifferent

alastair wrote: »

What exactly are the private sector tenants doing then? Bunking in elsewhere?

I don't know nor care cos I'm not being asked to pay for them...:)

alastair

howamidifferent wrote: »

I don't know nor care cos I'm not being asked to pay for them...:)

Ahh. No need for any degree of rationality to be applied then.

howamidifferent

alastair wrote: »

Ahh. No need for any degree of rationality to be applied then.

Rational is user pays principal.

donalg1

kr7 wrote: »

How can donal thank this post tayto when he's on here arguing for the property tax all the time?

Because it makes sense, thats why I thanked it.

alastair

howamidifferent wrote: »

Rational is user pays principal.

Given that you're being subsidised by higher tax payers, I wouldn't shout too loud about that belief.

ART6

alastair wrote: »

That's not the reason. Once again: http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6826/taxbill.jpg

I keep on being told that the bank debt converted to sovereign is not the issue, but to me that is simply accounting spin. The fact remains that the country is insolvent and cannot meet its debts. Where those debts originated is, as I suggested, now irrelevant. They exist, and the only ones who can (must) pay them are the people. It is, surely, a simple matter: If you have financial commitments, genuinely entered into given the information available at the time, but then due to a recession you find that your income is insufficient to meet your needs, what do you do? Well, you could undertake to guarantee the debts of a number of others, irrespective of how reckless they have been, and you could borrow money to meet those debts. So now those debts have increased by the amount of whatever interest you must now pay on the loans. No-one is pursuing the original debtors since you are the guarantor. Who in the name of God would do that?

The simple fact remains that if at the end of a month your bank account has more money in it than you spent, you're fine. If it has less you are in trouble. If you budgeted to ensure the former and then someone (government) comes along to purloin your account and use the excuse of the newly invented "LAW" then you are in deep trouble because you no longer have any means of budgeting.

So how many people committed to mortgages they couldn't afford on the financial advice they were given? How many knowingly invested in pension schemes that would be later scalped by government? How many believed the politician's spin of "Sure it'll be fine!" How many ran up credit card debts because they were told that Ireland was booming and manna would rain from heaven?

So let's get down to basics. The average Joe Public is not an internationally recognised economist. He simply wants to earn a living and put bread on the table. He wants his family to have somewhere to live, and be able to afford it. He recognises that he should pay taxes for the running of the country, but he wants to know what they are and that they are fair. Upon more than one occasion he will get the whole thing wrong, because he is not an expert. He has this delusion that he actually elects experts to represent him. Yeah well...!

alastair

ART6 wrote: »

I keep on being told that the bank debt converted to sovereign is not the issue, but to me that is simply accounting spin. The fact remains that the country is insolvent and cannot meet its debts. Where those debts originated is, as I suggested, now irrelevant.

I'm having difficulty in following you. No-one is disputing that the state has taken on banking debt. There's no accounting spin in that regard. The amount that this bank debt - interest included, contributes to our overall revenue commitment is illustrated in the graph above. The bulk of our deficit is created by shortfalls on the back of the other 96.something% outgoings. Without the banking debt and all that's accrued from it - we'd 'only' be liable for finding funds for the right hand column.

kr7

donalg1 wrote: »

Because it makes sense, thats why I thanked it.

Well why don't you come over to the other side then so we can unite to defeat this tax?

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

Well why don't you come over to the other side then so we can unite to defeat this tax?

Wild leap into the dark here - but it might have something to do with supporting a property tax?

Ray Palmer

alastair wrote: »

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Income tax and prsi? Lower or higher? The property owner doesn't pay them for the tenants either.

Income tax is higher for most - lower top end rates* - fewer tax credits.
Social insurance is higher than here - between health, unemployment, and nursing care contributions**. Owners pay property tax - not tenants (though they might well pass the overhead on).

*oops! no -]

no that is not true

No income tax is charged on the basic allowance, which is €8,004 for unmarried persons and €16,008 for jointly assessed married couples. Beyond this threshold, the marginal tax rate increases linearly from 14% to 24% for a taxable income of €13,469 (€26,938 for married couples). In the subsequent interval up to a taxable income of €52,881 (€105,762 for married couples), the marginal tax rate increases linearly from 24% to 42%. The last change of rates occurs at a taxable income of €250,730 (€501,460 for married couples) when the marginal tax rate jumps from 42% to 45%. The course of the marginal tax rate and the resulting average tax rate are depicted in the graph to the right.

lugha

kr7 wrote: »

Well why don't you come over to the other side then so we can unite to defeat this tax?

Possibly because the "no" side have failed completely to make a coherent, consistent argument specifically against a property tax? :P

You have done marginally better, paradoxically, with your no new tax argument though the fundamental argument here (taking money out of the economy is not a good idea) seems to me to have a bit of a flaw in that the obvious alternative is to cut PS wages, which surely would have the same negative effect?

bgrizzley

ART6 wrote: »

In this and other threads on this subject a number of posts have stated that the country is effectively insolvent, and that taxes must rise accordingly since the government cannot meet it's bills. The causes for that insolvency (converting bank debt to sovereign debt etc) are irrelevant now since the debts exists and cannot be simply cancelled. However, there is only a certain amount of money that can be drained from family incomes before the economy begins to suffer. This is the point where taxation levels become unsustainable: People progressively spend less because they simply don't have the money after tax. The economy then begins to decline, and taxation from other sources (stamp duty, excise duty, VAT, corporation tax, etc.) also starts to decline. Taxation increases steadily buy revenue income reduces.

The economy needs growth to have any chance of escaping from the recession, and increasing taxes to pay for growth initiatives is madness of the nature beloved of politicians. Ministers telling people to get out and buy things when they have given a large part of their incomes to government is downright insulting.

I believe that we are now at the point where tax levels will become unsustainable if they aren't already, and piling on more and more stealth and other taxes will only accelerate the decline. There must be another solution, and ones I can immediately think of are:

Eliminate all but absolutely essential quangos, and return responsibilities to ministerial departments, carrying out detailed studies of what all of the remaining quangos actually do and be ruthless about whether any of it is necessary (quangos were reported as costing €13 billions in 2006 -- Irish Independent).

If tax levels are to be compared with those in other countries (a favourite government tactic) then look at civil service numbers and costs on a per-capita basis in Ireland and other countries. Carry out the same exercise for TD and ministerial salaries, expenses, and pensions, and reduce them as necessary to conform to the EU average for the size of population. Do the same thing for the number of TDs and ministers (including the ranks of junior ministers), and adjust those numbers to the EU average.

Instead of increasing spending from increased taxation to fund jobs and growth initiatives, consider that perhaps people, commerce, and industry have a better idea of how to manage their finances and spending than any politician will ever have. So no more pointless and unsuccessful initiatives and no more tax increases. Let the economy grow by its own efforts without the interference of incompetent ministers.

Where unions insist upon being intransigent in the face of reality, confront them and get the fight over and done with instead of agreeing to maintain the status quo in supposed return for some nebulous efficiency savings that never seem to actually arise.

Take a long, cold look at all of the services supplied by central and local government, and be rid of any that are not essential. So no more overseas aid payments to foreign states, at least until such time as the economy recovers. Let the charities worry about humanitarian aid -- they are much better at it than governments, and they spend money from voluntary donations, not from tax.

I am sure there are many other initiatives that should be entertained, but finally I would suggest that the politicians in government should consider abandoning the policies of lies and spin, start defending their own people as they are paid to do, and try leadership for a change:mad:

this post deserves a bump in case anyone missed it...

alastair

Ray Palmer wrote: »

no that is not true

Single tax payer - Germany v Ireland (social insurance/PRSI/USC included)

base salary: €25000 - Annual Net Income: Germany €13.849,51 Ireland €21,495.00
base salary: €35000 - Annual Net Income: Germany €19.102,01 Ireland €27,933.00
base salary: €45000 - Annual Net Income: Germany €24.354,51 Ireland €32,733.00
base salary: €55000 - Annual Net Income: Germany €29.607,01 Ireland €37,533.00
base salary: €80000 - Annual Net Income: Germany €42.738,26 Ireland €49,533.00

Suggests most people pay more income tax in Germany I'd say.

dissed doc

alastair wrote: »

Single tax payer - Germany v Ireland (social insurance/PRSI/USC included)

base salary: €25000 - Annual Net Income: Germany €13.849,51 Ireland €21,495.00
base salary: €35000 - Annual Net Income: Germany €19.102,01 Ireland €27,933.00
base salary: €45000 - Annual Net Income: Germany €24.354,51 Ireland €32,733.00
base salary: €55000 - Annual Net Income: Germany €29.607,01 Ireland €37,533.00
base salary: €80000 - Annual Net Income: Germany €42.738,26 Ireland €49,533.00

Suggests most people pay more income tax in Germany I'd say.

Mostly it's that people in Germany at incomes of 20-30k for example pay a lot more for the sevrices/taxes than in Ireland. Up until 2 years ago, someone on 20k in Ireland paid virtually zero taxes, whereas in Germany it would be 20-30%.

This is why the public services struggle, because the income groups at 20-30k need to pay more as there are simply not enough people at even 60K+ to keep supporting public services.

donalg1

kr7 wrote: »

Well why don't you come over to the other side then so we can unite to defeat this tax?

Because thats never going to happen, and if I did go to the other side I would end up paying fines and late penalties which I would much prefer to avoid. Now if someone on your side wishes to give me a few grand to cover the tax and late fees attached I will happily wait and see, and of course if the tax is scrapped (which it wont be) I will release their money to them.

kr7

donalg1 wrote: »

Because thats never going to happen, and if I did go to the other side I would end up paying fines and late penalties which I would much prefer to avoid. Now if someone on your side wishes to give me a few grand to cover the tax and late fees attached I will happily wait and see, and of course if the tax is scrapped (which it wont be) I will release their money to them.

The more people who refuse to pay, the better the chance of defeating this unjust tax.
The real battle will start when they try to enforce the tax proper.
It's one thing trying to get people to part with €100, it's something quite different if that €100 turns into €1000.

You seem happy enough to pay up, going by the amount of posts you have here dismissing anyone who refuses to pay.

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

It's one thing trying to get people to part with €100, it's something quite different if that €100 turns into €1000.

You seem happy enough to pay up, going by the amount of posts you have here dismissing anyone who refuses to pay.

Enjoy the penalties!

Property tax is here to stay. Welcome to a taxation model the rest of the world realised shouldn't be dumped for votes in the '70's.

donalg1

kr7 wrote: »

The more people who refuse to pay, the better the chance of defeating this unjust tax.
The real battle will start when they try to enforce the tax proper.
It's one thing trying to get people to part with €100, it's something quite different if that €100 turns into €1000.

You seem happy enough to pay up, going by the amount of posts you have here dismissing anyone who refuses to pay.

How do I dismiss anyone who refuses to pay, I have always maintained the opinion that what someone else does with their money is their business. However, I have asked why they dont want to pay the property tax or why they would pay a tax of a different name if it equated to the same amount as the property tax.

alastair

donalg1 wrote: »

However, I have asked why they dont want to pay the property tax or why they would pay a tax of a different name if it equated to the same amount as the property tax.

Because it's usually bluster. They just don't want to pay any extra taxation, or want it shifted into a source that impacts less on them.

Dub XV

alastair wrote: »

Because it's usually bluster. They just don't want to pay any extra taxation, or want it shifted into a source that impacts less on them.

Now I know you were just blindly waffling on without reading properly.

You make sweeping generalising statements all the time but then try and nit pick other posts. All when it suits of course.

Are you a politician

alastair

Dub XV wrote: »

Now I know you were just blindly waffling on without reading properly.

I seem to recall you're in camp 1 yourself - no more taxes. Because you've reached the 'tipping point'. Have I read properly?

Dub XV

alastair wrote: »

I seem to recall you're in camp 1 yourself - no more taxes. Because you've reached the 'tipping point'. Have I read properly?

Nope.

Dub XV

This thread relates to PROPERTY TAX.


I never said I won't pay ANY other new tax etc.

Can you show me otherwise?

alastair

Dub XV wrote: »

This thread relates to PROPERTY TAX.


I never said I won't pay ANY other new tax etc.

Can you show me otherwise?

No mention of the nature of the tax here:

I am covering my outgoings. But I may struggle if the government apply an extra tax, at whatever level they see fit, whenever they see fit!

There is a limit to what people can pay.

Ghandee

What is ali's thoughts in an FG senator evading her taxes?

Dub XV

alastair wrote: »

No mention of the nature of the tax here:

"at whatever level they see fit, whenever they see fit!"

Meaning, as I seem to have to spell it out for you, It's at the governments discretion. You don't know what the charge will be. You don't know how far it could escalate. You don't know if they will lob in a few more taxes down the line......Do you?


Pay more attention in future.