Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

Dub XV

dvpower wrote: »

The figures have been laid out in front of Ghandee many many times now, bit he's picked his spot on the wall. Its all about the bankers for him.

So......

The bank bailouts have nothing to do with the deficit?

alastair

Dub XV wrote: »

So......

The bank bailouts have nothing to do with the deficit?

Aaaaand again: http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6826/taxbill.jpg

Yes the bank bailouts have something to do with the deficit - there's the degree that your tax is covering them. Within the overall deficit - it's pretty small potatoes.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

Aaaaand again: http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6826/taxbill.jpg

Yes the bank bailouts have something to do with the deficit - there's the degree that your tax is covering them. Within the overall deficit - it's pretty small potatoes.

Have a word with your mates who gloss over the facts so Ali.

then tell us why the government paid out 500,000,000 to an anonymous secret unsecured bondholder last week, (which we obviously can't afford to do) while we ask our own citizens to step up to the plate and pay their way.

500million paid to a gambler who lost his bet.

3 years worth of hhc payments and a cool 20million left over.

Dub XV

alastair wrote: »

Aaaaand again: http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6826/taxbill.jpg

Yes the bank bailouts have something to do with the deficit - there's the degree that your tax is covering them. Within the overall deficit - it's pretty small potatoes.

That's lovely, did you make it yourself?

Dub XV

alastair wrote: »

Yes the bank bailouts have something to do with the deficit.

Sound.

dvpower

Dub XV wrote: »

So......

The bank bailouts have nothing to do with the deficit?

Of course they have something to do with it. Just not very much.

Dub XV

dvpower wrote: »

Of course they have something to do with it.

Sound.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

500million paid to a gambler who lost his bet.

It looks to me like he won his bet.

Ghandee

I like this letter from Ray Heffernan in the indo.

Madam -- I was amazed to read in your paper that the "fat cats" who caused the collapse of our economy are to be allowed live the lifestyle that they are "used to". People who are suffering because of these greedy fat cats are not just losing their jobs, homes, enduring the break-up of families through emigration but are carrying the burden of the debts these fat cats caused. To add insult to injury I read that these greedy people are to be allowed buy back some of the assets Nama took from them, but at a lower rate. This brought me to quickly scan what is happening in Dail Eireann. And it reads like the Mad Hatter's Tea Party. We have Dr Reilly being registered in Stubbs Gazette for owing money, as his party colleague Alan Shatter tells people who owe money that they should sell their jewellery to pay off their debts. We have ordinary business people going to jail for not meeting their obligation on VAT. Meanwhile Mick Wallace sits in the Dail. Then along comes Minister Phil Hogan and his entourage with a bill of €9,000 for a one-day trip abroad, the man who tells us we must raise extra cash through new septic tank charges, water and household charges. Have I missed anything? Then the icing on the cake: we read that Sean Quinn's family want €2,000 a week each to live on. I suggest we give them, and the other fat cats, the same as what the people on social welfare get to live on. Then just to make sure we are all doing as we are told, the Taoiseach has been flying in the Government jet, 26 times from July 2011 to June 2012, at a cost of €3,790 an hour. That is one very expensive cherry to finish this sorry tale off. The only people who have suffered from all the greed are the people who did not cause it, and those that did, walked away with big pensions, and the other greedy fats cats have been given a second chance, while poverty and fear is the diet of the ordinary citizen who played no part is this economic treason. Ray Heffernan, Raheny, Dublin 5

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/greed-of-fat-cats-making-us-suffer-3190005.html


Sums it up quite well.

Dub XV

dvpower wrote: »

It looks to me like he won his bet.

Indeed. But WE seem to have lost HIS bet.

Feels great to be a mug I'd imagine?

dvpower

Dub XV wrote: »

Indeed. But WE seem to have lost HIS bet.

Feels great to be a mug I'd imagine?

I know. If only we didn't have THE DEFICIT. Then we wouldn't need the bailout and we'ed be in a better position to burn some of those bondholders.

gerryo777

If only our domestic economy could improve.
If only we could get people back spending instead of saving.
If only more jobs were created if we encouraged this to happen.
If only this joke of a government would stop putting fear into people by bringing in new taxes & charges.
If only we could tax our way out of the recession.

If only we weren't so stupid to elect FF lite to govern....

alastair

gerryo777 wrote: »

If only our domestic economy could improve.
If only we could get people back spending instead of saving.
If only more jobs were created if we encouraged this to happen.
If only this joke of a government would stop putting fear into people by bringing in new taxes & charges.
If only we could tax our way out of the recession.

If only we weren't so stupid to elect FF lite to govern....

Those who declare with infinite certainty that spending cuts and tax increases cannot work, or that there is no example of an economy cutting its way out of recession should take a closer look at the Baltics.

Dan O'Brien
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0406/1224314438685.html

Dub XV

alastair wrote: »

Dan O'Brien
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0406/1224314438685.html

Then later states that this isn't a given referencing Greece?

alastair

Dub XV wrote: »

Then later states that this isn't a given referencing Greece?

So? The point is that those who say you can't tax your way out of a recession clearly are being selective with he truth. The ratio between cuts and tax increases to date here has been around 3:1. We don't have the facility to throw expenditure at the problem - regardless of how Keynesian you might be inclined, so our solution is bound to require taxes and cuts. property taxation is an obvious component of all modern sustainable tax models, and we certainly need a sustainable tax base for any sort of recovery.

noodler

This year we are spending about 70bn
We will take in 55bn.

This year we aren't even paying the 3.1bn promissory note payment so that won't be part of the expenditure.

Lets nitpick and say that 1-2bn of the interest we pay this year is related to banking debts though.

If you don't believe me then just familarise with the DoF's own documents (Stability Programme Update - April 2012 edition).

gerryo777

noodler wrote: »

This year we are spending about 70bn
We will take in 55bn.

This year we aren't even paying the 3.1bn promissory note payment so that won't be part of the expenditure.

Lets nitpick and say that 1-2bn of the interest we pay this year is related to banking debts though.

If you don't believe me then just familarise with the DoF's own documents (Stability Programme Update - April 2012 edition).

So what?

We're running a deficit, we have no choice but to run a deficit.
Our economy is on it's knees and until that changes we'll run a deficit no matter what the EU/IMF want.

There's only so much that can be taken out of an economy before it collapses totally.

FG/Labour are set on destroying the country. Unless your one of their cronies and you've just got a pay rise.

noodler

Wow.

Ok, lets pretend you are interested in a serious debate and I'll take each point one at a time.

gerryo777 wrote: »

So what?

We're running a deficit, we have no choice but to run a deficit.
Our economy is on it's knees and until that changes we'll run a deficit no matter what the EU/IMF want.

You seem to think of a deficit as some magical accounting trick. It is not.

The money has to be borrowed. The markets won't lend it to us at anything like acceptable rates and the EU/IMF will only lend it to us if we show some ambition to reduce it over time.

gerryo777 wrote: »

There's only so much that can be taken out of an economy before it collapses totally.

We will have to learn to get our economy working at a lower deficit, it is pretty much undisputed. Even the likes of SF etc advocate closing the deficit (albeit over a longer time frame and with more measures they reckon will hit the rich).

gerryo777 wrote: »

FG/Labour are set on destroying the country. Unless your one of their cronies and you've just got a pay rise.

I don't know what to say to that other than it is a fairly desperate line of argument highlighting you don't really understand where we are.

gerryo777

gerryo777 wrote: »

So what?

We're running a deficit, we have no choice but to run a deficit.
Our economy is on it's knees and until that changes we'll run a deficit no matter what the EU/IMF want.

There's only so much that can be taken out of an economy before it collapses totally.

FG/Labour are set on destroying the country. Unless your one of their cronies and you've just got a pay rise.

No point in blaming the current government or even recent ones, the main reason we're in this mess is because we have an economic system that requires infinite growth to function and more importantly to feed the parasitic financial sector (which in fact has little benefit to the real economy).

Remove the parasite, and much of the financial crisis will be resolved.

A more serious video discussing the banksters.

dvpower

I knew it was the vampire squids all along

gerryo777

noodler wrote: »

Wow.

Ok, lets pretend you are interested in a serious debate and I'll take each point one at a time.




You seem to think of a deficit as some magical accounting trick. It is not.

The money has to be borrowed. The markets won't lend it to us at anything like acceptable rates and the EU/IMF will only lend it to us if we show some ambition to reduce it over time.




We will have to learn to get our economy working at a lower deficit, it is pretty much undisputed. Even the likes of SF etc advocate closing the deficit (albeit over a longer time frame and with more measures they reckon will hit the rich).



I don't know what to say to that other than it is a fairly desperate line of argument highlighting you don't really understand where we are.

I understand quite well where we are.

Every country has to borrow money from time to time, that's the way of the world.
Only difference this time is that were shut out of the bondmarkets.

What do you suggest we do?

Keep cutting back, thus increasing unemployment?

Keep on taxing, thus reducing the amount of disposable income people have to spend in the domestic economy and increasing unemployment?

We have to try and grow our way out of this mess not cut and tax our way out.

BTW, any thoughts on the fact that our PS are still getting pay rises?

Any thoughts on the government 'special advisors' getting pay rises.

Any thoughts on the extra quangos set up since this government took power?

Just wondering as we don't really need another FG stooge on here, there's enough of them.

senordingdong

Another positive reason to rent for the rest of my life.

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

So? The point is that those who say you can't tax your way out of a recession clearly are being selective with he truth. The ratio between cuts and tax increases to date here has been around 3:1. We don't have the facility to throw expenditure at the problem - regardless of how Keynesian you might be inclined, so our solution is bound to require taxes and cuts. property taxation is an obvious component of all modern sustainable tax models, and we certainly need a sustainable tax base for any sort of recovery.

But we have the facility to throw expenditure at advisors, civil servants etc, strangely enough, hey. Ironic, don't ya think, that the people in absolute dire straits are the last people in this country to get any such rises.:mad::mad:

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

But we have the facility to throw expenditure at advisors, civil servants etc, strangely enough, hey. Ironic, don't ya think, that the people in absolute dire straits are the last people in this country to get any such rises.:mad::mad:

Strangely enough - despite all the hoo-hah about overpaid advisors etc - public service expenditure is committed (to the IMF/EU again) to a reduction of €3.8 billion for 2015. That's reduced expenditure. Not a particularly compelling context to claim that the govt can throw money at the recession to cure it.

And if you reckoned it could - you should be applauding the big pay packets for advisers/civil servants etc - lovely money to slosh around the economy etc?

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

Strangely enough - despite all the hoo-hah about overpaid advisors etc - public service expenditure is committed (to the IMF/EU again) to a reduction of €3.8 billion for 2015. That's reduced expenditure. Not a particularly compelling context to claim that the govt can throw money at the recession to cure it.

And if you reckoned it could - you should be applauding the big pay packets for advisers/civil servants etc - lovely money to slosh around the economy etc?

I really don't care in the least which way you may choose to explain it away, but there is really something insidious in the way that the poorest in our society are stamped upon and are seen to be stamped upon, end of.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

I really don't care in the least which way you may choose to explain it away, but there is really something insidious in the way that the poorest in our society are stamped upon and are seen to be stamped upon, end of.

Who are the poorest, who is stamping upon them and how is this stamping manifesting itself?

emo72

I read an interesting article in wired magazine last month about certain governments setting up departments of IT people to infiltrate forums, gather info and subvert opinion.

Didn't pay much heed to it, but after reading a few threads in here im a little more sceptical.

Some of the posters here fit the profile. Just food for thought.

emo72

emo72 wrote: »

I read an interesting article in wired magazine last month about certain governments setting up departments of IT people to infiltrate forums, gather info and subvert opinion.

Didn't pay much heed to it, but after reading a few threads in here im a little more sceptical.

Some of the posters here fit the profile. Just food for thought.

Tinfoil hat stuff tbh

lugha

gerryo777 wrote: »

We're running a deficit, we have no choice but to run a deficit.

Surely the truth is that we have no choice but to make an effort (higher taxes / spending cuts) to try and reduce our deficit. If you disagree, can you tell us who you think will continue to give us money to fund this deficit?

BTW, are you opposed to spending cuts as well as higher taxes?

gerryo777 wrote: »

FG/Labour are set on destroying the country.

Of course they are :rolleyes:. Despite the suggestion of someone on the “no” side, we will not be out of the mess we are in 1-3 years! I estimate it will be closer to 10 times this time period, and in that time we will likely to through a dozen or more governments, some containing parties that possibly don’t yet exist. And I expect that there will be little real difference between then in terms of how they tackle the crisis.

It is a nice fairytale notion that there might be some wondrous political party out there that could plot a painless route our of this crisis for us. Alas, there is not; the total pain (and it will be considerable) to be endured by the people, one way of the other, is pretty constant, no matter who is governing.

Of course many like to curse out bad luck that we happen to get those horrid blue shirts and smoked salmon socialists just at the time in our history when we really needed great leaders / parties. Some of us though won’t have to wait 10-15 years to learn that who “leads us” is largely irrelevant.

alastair

emo72 wrote: »

I read an interesting article in wired magazine last month about certain governments setting up departments of IT people to infiltrate forums, gather info and subvert opinion.

Didn't pay much heed to it, but after reading a few threads in here im a little more sceptical.

Some of the posters here fit the profile. Just food for thought.

The tinfoil section is two aisles down.