Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

gerryo777

So, just to review,
I'm proposing a new tax to balance the proposed property tax.

Anyone who's renting their accommodation is to be subject to a benefit in kind tax set at the same rate as the property tax.

Fair all round, I'm sure you'll agree.

Thanks to dv for planting that little seed.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

The newspaper might have an agenda though.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Irish_Times

The paper is reporting what the EU 'Taxation Trends in the EU report' says.
You could go and read the source material if you don't believe the Irish Times.

Specifically what part of the report do you think is false?

dvpower

gerryo777 wrote: »

So, just to review,
I'm proposing a new tax to balance the proposed property tax.

Anyone who's renting their accommodation is to be subject to a benefit in kind tax set at the same rate as the property tax.

Fair all round, I'm sure you'll agree.

Thanks to dv for planting that little seed.

Now, all you need is a majority of TDs to support your position and you can implement that proposal.:pac:

trellheim

Would you like a nit with that picking ? Of course I read it. So what ? It's a saving provision in the Constitution. The taxation principle that all revenue forms a single fund is the point; sure there may be exceptions. Motor Tax is ringfenced for Local Govt offset but it doesn't cover everything.

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

Now, all you need is a majority of TDs to support your position and you can implement that proposal.:pac:

LOL.

You mean once the troika put it in a MOU, our pen-pushers can introduce it.

Don't remember anything in the MOU about only property owners having to pay a property tax.

trellheim

Anyone who's renting their accommodation

can have their rent increased by the landlord in accordance with the lease and the law if the landlord wants more. Let the market decide.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

The paper is reporting what the EU 'Taxation Trends in the EU report' says.
You could go and read the source material if you don't believe the Irish Times.

Specifically what part of the report do you think is false?

I do not see any source from this 'EU report'

IRELAND RANKS among the EU countries with the lowest tax revenues and only Slovakia has lower revenues in the euro zone, a new study has found.

In joint research, the tax and statistical divisions of the European Commission attributed the sharp drop in tax revenues from 2007 to the economic crash.

Where can I find details of this report? Googling the words, ;the tax and statistical divisions of the European Commission' brings up the Irish times website.

I want more of a source than what a 'right wing paper' tells me.

gerryo777

trellheim wrote: »

can have their rent increased by the landlord in accordance with the lease and the law if the landlord wants more. Let the market decide.

You may want to use the quotes of who your replying to a bit better.
It's not clear who your replying to sometimes.:)

Chips Lovell

gerryo777 wrote: »

Maybe if people who rent and those in LA housing had to pay for their local services they might be inclined to have a bit more pride in their community and look after their locality a bit better.

Leave them out of the loop, it'll increase their sense of entitlement even more

That's a very broad, and fairly insulting, generalisation to make.

trellheim

Quoting their own stuff back at people except for small pieces to make a point is hardly conducive. That is what I did.

darkhorse

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I mean that it makes it redundant because it's no longer a property tax and instead is a broad levy.

We have always had a progressive taxation system, whereby those who earn more and own more, pay proportionally more. You may not consider that fair and equitable, but I certainly do, so possibly there our opinions differ.

I believe the property tax ought to be no different. Those who stand to gain most from local services (i.e. their impact on their asset value) should pay proportionally more.

As a famous man once said. "It is morally unjust"

Chips Lovell

Ghandee wrote: »

I want more of a source than what a 'right wing paper' tells me.

Are you actually claiming the Irish Times has lied about that EU study in order to convince us all to pay more tax?

dxhound2005

trellheim wrote: »

Would you like a nit with that picking ? Of course I read it. So what ? It's a saving provision in the Constitution. The taxation principle that all revenue forms a single fund is the point; sure there may be exceptions. Motor Tax is ringfenced for Local Govt offset but it doesn't cover everything.

The point is that all revenue forms a single fund subject to exceptions provided by law. The Household Charge legislation provides such an exception. It is not nitpicking to point that out in this thread.

Financial Implications of the Bill
The Bill has no direct financial implications for the Exchequer as
the revenue from the €100 household charge will be lodged to the
Local Government Fund out of which funding will be provided by
the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local
Government to local authorities in the form of General-Purpose
Grants.

dvpower

trellheim wrote: »

Would you like a nit with that picking ? Of course I read it. So what ? It's a saving provision in the Constitution. The taxation principle that all revenue forms a single fund is the point; sure there may be exceptions. Motor Tax is ringfenced for Local Govt offset but it doesn't cover everything.

The HHC is also specifically ringfenced for Local Government funding in the legislation.

Chips Lovell

darkhorse wrote: »

As a famous man once said. "It is morally unjust"

It doesn't really matter whether Enda Kenny said it in 1994 or someone on Boards said it in 2012, the fact of the matter is that nobody has really managed to explain what is immoral about taxing a house.

darkhorse

trellheim wrote: »

Would you like a nit with that picking ? Of course I read it. So what ? It's a saving provision in the Constitution. The taxation principle that all revenue forms a single fund is the point; sure there may be exceptions. Motor Tax is ringfenced for Local Govt offset but it doesn't cover everything.

I was just going to say, before I read your post, about the nitpicking.:)

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

What are you on about here Tayto?
Does James Reilly really have a self supplied motor tax break? Or is this a lie?

He got a tax break on his Offaly mansion. Politicians always look after themselves and know how to get things done especially for themselves. They have influence over their Civil Servants. Remember Sean Gallagher and the Lotto grants.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

I do not see any source from this 'EU report'



Where can I find details of this report? Googling the words, ;the tax and statistical divisions of the European Commission' brings up the Irish times website.

I want more of a source than what a 'right wing paper' tells me.

Where might you find an EU Commission report?

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Are you actually claiming the Irish Times has lied about that EU study in order to convince us all to pay more tax?

No, not claiming that at all.

Still cant see the source of the study though.

But here is something I do claim.

The Govt are openly and publicly lying on the 'official' figures on how many have paid the HHC.

It makes no sense, none whatsoever, that they claim that '60%+' have paid.

If that was the case, surely to God, more than half (more than 50%?) of people I spoke with/to about whether or not they paid this charge, I would not get the constant NO as a reply?

Radio polls/Phone ins, the overwhelming response from the public was a big NO.
RTE Late Late show, the vast majority of members of the public were opposed, and would not pay it.
The polls on this site have shown an overwhelming NO by posters/voters.

Taking all this aside, I still base my theory on the Govt being 'careless with the truth' is the amount of Joe Soap public, ordinary men and women, from working class home owners, right up to (I'd imagine some are millionares) wealthy home owners, the vast majority (at least claim) have not paid the HHC, nor intend to pay the upcoming tax.

I'm sorry, call me sceptical if you wish, but the figures from Lab/FG do not make sense, not in my eyes.

dvpower

gerryo777 wrote: »

Don't remember anything in the MOU about only property owners having to pay a property tax.

In that case theres nothing to stop you. Lets see if you can get 84 TDs to support your proposals. :pac:

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It doesn't really matter whether Enda Kenny said it in 1994 or someone on Boards said it in 2012, the fact of the matter is that nobody has really managed to explain what is immoral about taxing a house.

It is a dedicated attack on that sector of the population who bothered their A*** working and trying to make things better for their families. Unlike many who never worked but get everything for nothing and spend all their time in the pub or bookie office while their children run wild.
To punish one and reward the other is morally wrong to me and that makes this tax morally wrong.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Where might you find an EU Commission report?

Thanks for that.

Wont get a chance to read all 247 pages this evening though.

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

My house is obviously accessible but i pay my road tax unlike Reilly who gets his self supplied tax breaks.

tayto lover wrote: »

He got a tax break on his Offaly mansion.

You said he didn't pay his 'road' tax. You're changing your tune now.
What tax break did he get on his 'road' tax?

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Wont get a chance to read all 247 pages this evening though.

Don't forget the 20 odd pages in the spreadsheet.:)

Interesting reading actually. It shows how little we actually pay in tax compared to other European countries.

Chips Lovell

Ghandee wrote: »

No, not claiming that at all.

Still cant see the source of the study though.

It's on the European Commission website. It's worth reading actually:

From 1999 to 2002, Ireland reduced the total tax burden across the board from 31.5 % to just 28.3 % of GDP. Since 2002, however, the total tax ratio has increased every year, reaching 32.0 % in 2006, in large part due to a surge in VAT receipts, capital gains tax and stamp duties. This upward trend was interrupted in 2007 when the total tax ratio decreased by almost one percentage point. In 2009, total tax revenue to GDP reached the lowest value and remained at the same level in 2010. This decrease was mainly driven by lower ratios of VAT, PIT, other taxes on products (incl. import duties), and corporate income taxes to GDP, caused by the worsening economic situation in
Ireland.

Ghandee wrote: »

But here is something I do claim.

The Govt are openly and publicly lying on the 'official' figures on how many have paid the HHC.

It makes no sense, none whatsoever, that they claim that '60%+' have paid.

If that was the case, surely to God, more than half (more than 50%?) of people I spoke with/to about whether or not they paid this charge, I would not get the constant NO as a reply?

Radio polls/Phone ins, the overwhelming response from the public was a big NO.
RTE Late Late show, the vast majority of members of the public were opposed, and would not pay it.
The polls on this site have shown an overwhelming NO by posters/voters.

All of that is anecdotal evidence though. For example, pretty much everyone I know has paid it, at least that's what they're telling me. What does that tell me about the overall payment rate? Not much really.

If they're lying about compliance, what are they going to do when preparing the national accounts? Sooner or later they're going to have to explain where the missing money is.

Chips Lovell

tayto lover wrote: »

IUnlike many who never worked but get everything for nothing and spend all their time in the pub or bookie office while their children run wild.To punish one and reward the other is morally wrong to me and that makes this tax morally wrong.

Yep, everyone who isn't a homeowner is like this. Shocking, isn't it?

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

You said he didn't pay his 'road' tax. You're changing your tune now.
What tax break did he get on his 'road' tax?

You know exactly what i meant. Is there even such a thing as a tax break on a car, i don't think so. Why do you always try to divert from the point. You knew what i meant but decided to muddy the water. Typical.

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Yep, everyone who isn't a homeowner is like this. Shocking, isn't it?

No they are not ALL like that but the home owners are ALL being targeted.

Chips Lovell

Ghandee wrote: »

Wont get a chance to read all 247 pages this evening though.

All the info mentioned in the Times story is in the section on Ireland (the three pages in the link I posted).

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

You know exactly what i meant. Is there even such a thing as a tax break on a car, i don't think so. Why do you always try to divert from the point. You knew what i meant but decided to muddy the water. Typical.

I'm muddying the water :pac:?

Here you are, as plain as day, lying that James Reilly doesn't pay 'road tax'.

tayto lover wrote: »

My house is obviously accessible but i pay my road tax unlike Reilly who gets his self supplied tax breaks.

You're some chancer.

In the same post you go on to say...

tayto lover wrote: »

Nice to be in power you get to know people who can do the little favours for you, like the tax break.

... and you say I'm muddying the waters?