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Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

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    #1832
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    If people want to donate part of their income to subsidise those who have no interest in working and are only interested in milking the system it should be their choice. I see no reason why we should all agree to that. The left seem very fond of spending other people's money on wasters.


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    #1833
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    No but I believe he would have been steered towards applying for the tax break and as a politician would have had the assistance of Civil Servants in obtaining it. Not illegally now but who was ever going to object to him getting one. I am of the opinion that his position favoured him in that.

    What happened to 'self supplied' tax breaks then? Reality-check. Anyone in a listed property, willing to open it up to public visits, is entitled to the same tax breaks - that's anyone. No need for the 'assistance of Civil Servants'. :rolleyes:


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    #1834
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    What's the benefit?
    alastair wrote: »
    Cars with lower carbon emissions are cheaper, or older cars with lower cubic capacity are cheaper. Buy a nice new diesel Dacia Duster if you're not wealthy and want a new tax-efficient car.



    Yes I do. They pay it already - it's a mixture of income tax, motor tax, VAT, etc etc. In fact the gamut of taxes - bar property tax - since they don't actually own a property - or get the benefit of owning property.


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    #1835
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    What's the benefit?

    A valuable asset that provides wealth at sale, and/or years of rent-free accommodation post-mortgage.


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    #1836
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    No, the pro-taxers believe renters get no benefit from having a roof over their head or from using the local services.

    Another thing,
    If I rented a car from hertz say, part of the rental charge would be to cover the motor tax for the year.
    These car rental company's aren't stupid you know, if that car cost's you €200 a week to rent you can be guaranteed that around €10 of that €200 is for the motor tax.
    Car renters pay motor tax.

    Bye bye motor tax argument.


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    #1837
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    I don't recall any referendum? Infact there is no democracy in the decision to introduce a property tax. It's part of an agreement made by the previous bunch of gangsters and the IMF/EU. We got no vote. Plus FG/Labour gave no indication that they would be introducing a property tax. They also said no more money would be given to Anglo. Those gangsters lied.

    You recall a general election? FG/Labour didn't introduce a property tax - FF did, prior to the current lot coming into power. And the 'not a cent more' thing is widely quoted without the context - "beyond what was committed" - which by all accounts is still the case.


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    #1838
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    alastair wrote: »
    A valuable asset that provides wealth at sale, and/or years of rent-free accommodation post-mortgage.

    And will essential maintenance of said assit be tax deductible? Someone in the accommodation section of the forum did calculations that suggest that the money saved by renting equates to a similar figure made on the sale of a property so renting does have its advantages.

    There is also alot of assumptions in the value of an assit when and if you pay off the mortgage. Many will default, S&P estimate up to 25% of people will default so they won't have any asset to sell and will still have a huge bill to pay off.

    Rent free is also an assumption that you will have the health to live in your own home and also that you will have a long retirement. I'm sure by the time I retire the age will be 70 and the old age pension may not even exist.


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    #1839
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    No, the pro-taxers believe renters get no benefit from having a roof over their head or from using the local services.

    They certainly don't get the benefit of property ownership, no.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Another thing,
    If I rented a car from hertz say, part of the rental charge would be to cover the motor tax for the year.
    These car rental company's aren't stupid you know, if that car cost's you €200 a week to rent you can be guaranteed that around €10 of that €200 is for the motor tax.
    Renters pay motor tax.

    Bye bye motor tax argument.

    Landlords will pass on the overhead of property taxation, just as Hertz pass on motor tax overheads. How does that undermine the comparable nature of selective taxation?


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    #1840
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »

    Another thing,
    If I rented a car from hertz say, part of the rental charge would be to cover the motor tax for the year.
    These car rental company's aren't stupid you know, if that car cost's you €200 a week to rent you can be guaranteed that around €10 of that €200 is for the motor tax.
    Car renters pay motor tax.

    Bye bye motor tax argument.

    If I rented a house, part of the rental charge will be to cover the property tax for the year.
    These landlords aren't stupid you know, if that house costs you €200 a week to rent you can be guaranteed that around €10 of that €200 is for the property tax.

    Bye bye renters argument.


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    #1841
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    alastair wrote: »
    They certainly don't get the benefit of property ownership, no.



    Landlords will pass on the overhead of property taxation, just as Hertz pass on motor tax overheads. How does that undermine the comparable nature of selective taxation?

    I'll engage with you for a moment.

    Do you agree now that car renters pay motor tax?


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    #1842
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    alastair wrote: »
    You recall a general election? FG/Labour didn't introduce a property tax - FF did, prior to the current lot coming into power. And the 'not a cent more' thing is widely quoted without the context - "beyond what was committed" - which by all accounts is still the case.

    My post clearly states the previous gangsters and not the curent lot of gangsters. "Not a single more cent" seems pretty straight forward comment even for someone with a fork tongue. How many times has that snake announced infrastructural projects getting the green light? Same projects getting announced every three-four months. They must think we really have short memories.


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    #1843
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    tayto lover wrote: »
    No but I believe he would have been steered towards applying for the tax break and as a politician would have had the assistance of Civil Servants in obtaining it. Not illegally now but who was ever going to object to him getting one. I am of the opinion that his position favoured him in that.

    There's no such thing as applying for tax reliefs or some civil servant rubber stamping them. If you're eligible, you claim them, end of story.
    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    What exactly have they to gain? Most will have paid more money than the assit is worth. And if they get to sell it in the future they will most likely have made a loss. Why should your neighbour who is renting not contribute to the upkeep of libraries, footpaths etc? They also have use but are exempt from paying. How is that fair and equitable?

    Even if it's worth less than you paid for it, it's still worth something. Your neighbour renting has nothing to show for their investment in accommodation. So if you buy for €250,000 and sell for €200,000, you've still got €200,000 more in assets than the neighbour.

    And nobody is saying non-property owners aren't contributing. The property tax is only going to be a proportion of local authority budgets. The rest comes from other taxation.

    In short, everyone pays, but property owners pay more.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    They may own nothing but that's because they have paid very little to keep the roof over their head.

    They certainly benefit from the local services though.

    We have different views on how society should be and that's ok.
    Doesn't make either of us right, I suppose.

    I believe everyone should pay and therefore have a stake in their local area, your's is a different view.

    I should stress that everyone is paying, just that property owners are being asked to pay proportionally more (as outlined above)

    I think it's apparent we do have different views on it and that's fine. I do think a property tax is a good idea and that we wouldn't be in as much of a mess as we are now if we'd had one 10 or 15 years ago. But I can appreciate others think the taxation system should be organised differently. Ultimately, the ballot box will decide.


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    #1844
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    And will essential maintenance of said assit be tax deductible?
    Why should it be?
    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Someone in the accommodation section of the forum did calculations that suggest that the money saved by renting equates to a similar figure made on the sale of a property so renting does have its advantages.
    'Someone' on a forum eh? I'm convinced.
    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    There is also alot of assumptions in the value of an assit when and if you pay off the mortgage. Many will default, S&P estimate up to 25% of people will default so they won't have any asset to sell and will still have a huge bill to pay off.
    Then they won't be a property owner - will they?
    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Rent free is also an assumption that you will have the health to live in your own home and also that you will have a long retirement. I'm sure by the time I retire the age will be 70 and the old age pension may not even exist.
    You sound like a cheery sod. Most people will live decades in their home post-mortgage.


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    #1845
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Do you agree now that car renters pay motor tax?

    Of course they don't. Rental companies pay motor tax.


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    #1846
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    My post clearly states the previous gangsters and not the curent lot of gangsters. "Not a single more cent" seems pretty straight forward comment even for someone with a fork tongue. How many times has that snake announced infrastructural projects getting the green light? Same projects getting announced every three-four months. They must think we really have short memories.

    "Not a cent more".

    You clearly do have a short memory. I posted only a minute or two ago.


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    #1847
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    There's no such thing as applying for tax reliefs or some civil servant rubber stamping them. If you're eligible, you claim them, end of story.



    Even if it's worth less than you paid for it, it's still worth something. Your neighbour renting has nothing to show for their investment in accommodation. So if you buy for €250,000 and sell for €200,000, you've still got €200,000 more in assets than the neighbour.

    And nobody is saying non-property owners aren't contributing. The property tax is only going to be a proportion of local authority budgets. The rest comes from other taxation.

    In short, everyone pays, but property owners pay more.



    I should stress that everyone is paying, just that property owners are being asked to pay proportionally more (as outlined above)

    I think it's apparent we do have different views on it and that's fine. I do think a property tax is a good idea and that we wouldn't be in as much of a mess as we are now if we'd had one 10 or 15 years ago. But I can appreciate others think the taxation system should be organised differently. Ultimately, the ballot box will decide.

    My only point is that regarding property, I believe that if you own or rent, you should pay for the benefits associated with living in that property.


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    #1848
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    I'll engage with you for a moment.

    Do you agree now that car renters pay motor tax?

    No they don't. The overhead of a motor tax might be passed on to someone hiring a car, but equally commercial rates are passed on to shop customers - who don't pay commercial rents. You do grasp the cyclical nature of the economic system?


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    #1849
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    alastair wrote: »
    "Not a cent more".

    You clearly do have a short memory. I posted only a minute or two ago.

    You referred to context. The context was clear even from the forked tongue.


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    #1850
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    alastair wrote: »
    No they don't. The overhead of a motor tax might be passed on to someone hiring a car, but equally commercial rates are passed on to shop customers - who don't pay commercial rents. You do grasp the cyclical nature of the economic system?

    "The overhead of a motor tax might be passed on to someone hiring a car", but they don't pay it?

    Goodnight!


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    #1851
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    We have always had a progressive taxation system, whereby those who earn more and own more, pay proportionally more. You may not consider that fair and equitable, but I certainly do, so possibly there our opinions differ.


    not really Vladimir

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/superwealthy-only-pay-tiny-fraction-in-tax-3182624.html

    The richest 450 people in Ireland -- who are worth at least €22.5bn between them -- paid an average tax bill of about €1.25m last year.


    what will a property tax mean to them? couple of grand out of how many multi millions? what percentage of their disposable incomes will they have to pay?

    what will E500 mean to someone who can now save E40 per week? 25% of their disposable income.
    or save E20 per week? 50% of their disposable income.

    and if you cant save anything? you will have some condecending politician tell you to sell your wedding ring...

    heres another piece from the article...
    Earlier this year, Finance Minister Michael Noonan told the Dail that nearly half of Irish millionaires pay less than 30 per cent tax. In total, 291 of the 620 people earning over €1m pay under the 30 per cent tax level. About one in five workers pays tax at the higher rate of 41 per cent.

    and finally from Brian keegan...
    Because of the volatility of the property market and stock market, it's hard to draw a straight line between someone's net worth and their capacity to earn enough to pay tax bills.

    i never hear anyone saying that about the ordinary man in the street when they are talking about a house being a wealth asset...


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    #1852
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    You referred to context. The context was clear even from the forked tongue.

    Yes - "not another cent", "not a cent more".

    Has there been a cent more? Not so far.


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    #1853
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Your sounding like him.


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    #1854
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    "The overhead of a motor tax might be passed on to someone hiring a car", but they don't pay it?
    So - you don't understand the cyclical nature of economics?


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    #1855
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    dvpower wrote: »
    You can't even tell the truth from a lie - or have the decency to even admit the lie when challenged on it.

    Didn't pay his 'road tax'. Lie.
    Got self supplied tax breaks? Lie.
    Got people to do little favours for him, like the tax break. Lie.

    A poor education is the least of your problems.

    I think some of you should try to hold a mature discussion and don't be always nitpicking. Of course you know, and I know, that James Reilly got tax breaks on the nursing home.
    Reilly availed of lucrative tax breaks on nursing homes.


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    #1856
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    darkhorse wrote: »
    I think some of you should try to hold a mature discussion and don't be always nitpicking. Of course you know, and I know, that James Reilly got tax breaks on the nursing home.
    Reilly availed of lucrative tax breaks on nursing homes.

    Every nursing home gets/got tax breaks. 450 odd of them. Reilly wasn't even a TD when he got those tax breaks.


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    #1857
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    alastair wrote: »
    A valuable asset that provides wealth at sale, and/or years of rent-free accommodation post-mortgage.

    But how can it be free from any payment if you will be paying property tax. You say in your post years of rent free accommodation post mortgage, but in reality one may as well be paying rent on it-not much difference.


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    #1858
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    darkhorse wrote: »
    But how can it be free from any payment if you will be paying property tax. You say in your post years of rent free accommodation post mortgage, but in reality one may as well be paying rent on it-not much difference.

    You find a house that you can rent for a grand a year, and get back to me.


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    #1859
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    alastair wrote: »
    You recall a general election? FG/Labour didn't introduce a property tax - FF did, prior to the current lot coming into power. And the 'not a cent more' thing is widely quoted without the context - "beyond what was committed" - which by all accounts is still the case.

    If you were doing accountancy and you discovered that you made a mistake in the first line of, for example, a price list, do ya keep going and carry on the mistake or do ya go back to the start and put it right, bearing in mind that the total is going to be wrong otherwise. By the way, you forgot to mention Labour's way or Frankfurt's way. These men knew exactly what they were saying during the election, which was anything to maximize votes. They also had choices. Oh, btw, we have heard all the arguements as to why they did'nt follow up on their promises, so don't even go there.


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    #1860
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    alastair wrote: »
    A valuable asset that provides wealth at sale, and/or years of rent-free accommodation post-mortgage.

    Just as a matter of interest, do please explain to me, how can something be an asset if you have to sell it at a loss because the bank want you out in order to sell it to try and get their money back. I think a lot of us common folk would know someone in such a position.


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    #1861
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    You find a house that you can rent for a grand a year, and get back to me.

    So you admit this is a groundrent on my home? we are finally on the same page Al:D


This discussion has been closed.
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