Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

TheCoolWay

More likely to spend that grand on a ticket Down Under

later12

kr7 wrote: »

But what's the difference? 20 years or 1 year, the money is needed for the services they use, no?

The logic behind a property tax (in normal economies) is that householders with a long term interest in a property benefit from the improvements that local authorities make to their area. This gives the householder a more valuable property, or in the case of long term lessees, gives them 'more bang for their buck' in terms of what they are getting for the rent they pay.

It's not really fair to ask more transient lessees to pay for the infrastructural utility of living in a certain area, as their fixation to that local authority, and therefore the benefit they derive, is less permanent.

kr7

Am Chile wrote: »

Because the first case you mentioned the seller is abviousily moving house and the tax is only in its first year or test year I should say-there is a lot of people who have intention of moving or transfering property for years to come-and once again to remind the charge is only applied for a period of 12 years.

What this government should do is admit that they've messed up big time on bringing in this tax, go back to the start and think it all up again.

Phil Hogan has been a complete and utter disaster, should be sacked, and let someone come in to work out a fair and just way of imposing a charge that pays for services provided.

I have a large and varied group of friends, from doctors to accountants, from labourers to tradesmen and all of them agree that the way they're trying to bring it in will not work.

Pride comes before a fall!

lugha

kr7 wrote: »

I think everyone in the country is feeling the effects of the mess FF made of the country.

No, they are feeling some of the effect and comparatively speaking, what they have had to endure so far is mild.

kr7 wrote: »

Federalising the debt that most countries in europe are struggling under will have to happen, I don't know how that's going to work out but it'll have to be done.

My points referred to the deficit, not the debt.

kr7 wrote: »

The cost of all the cutbacks and tax hikes should be measured not just in monetary terms but in social terms as well.

We will end up with a more divided society than ever and we will reap the 'rewards' for that into the future.

We'll see then if the course of action taken now was worth it.

Not sure what you are getting at here? You seem to be under the impression that we have a choice not to address our deficit, whatever the social consequences?

dxhound20057 wrote: »

I don't think a majority of private property owners should have struggled to come up with €100

That’s the other thread! I’m addressing the speculated cost of €500 - €1,000 that the property tax will come in at.

darkhorse wrote: »

I get the feeling from several of your posts that you are, and have been talking to members here as if we are all imbeciles and we really hav'nt a clue about the failed economic state that our country is in

I don’t deny that everyone realises that we have a problem. But opinions offered by several posters on the no side clearly indicate that they don’t appreciate how big the problem is. These opinions include:

* Pay cuts for “ordinary” workers in the public sector are unnecessary, as are new taxes.

* We’ll be out of this mess in 2 or 3 years

* If we could find jobs for the ~ 10% of the unemployed who would prefer to work this would make serious inroads in out deficit problem

* If politicians / advisors / top civil servants were paid more realistic salaries, this too would make inroads in out deficit problem

* If we had better political leaders of greater integrity / honesty / ability, things would be a lot better

And one from your good self

darkhorse wrote: »

the ordinary low paid workers do not have any more to give. Its just as simple as that, no matter what you, me or anybody say. I know I have nothing left to give.

* The crisis was not the people’s fault / the ordinary worker had no more to give (i.e. the ordinary worker cannot do anything about the deficit so some other way (there isn’t one!) has to be found.)

kr7

TheCoolWay wrote: »

More likely to spend that grand on a ticket Down Under

As 5 of my friends have done in the last 3 months.:(
2 of those have moved their whole family's.

We educate and train them here, at great expense, then we force them to leave to live their lives.:mad:

View

kr7 wrote: »

Shall we start with refuse collection, GP visits,prescription charges, school books, school transport and meals?

GP visits and perscription charges are paid by central government (the NHS) so this is not related to Council Tax.

As for the others, refuse is covered. School books are - at least at primary level - essentially non-existent. School transport and school meals are covered only if you live further than a specified "walking distance" from the nearest school (circa 3 miles I think) and have an income level which falls below a specified low income threshold.

PS The cost of the Council tax (based on property valuation) plus water was just under £3k per annum where I lived in the UK.

kr7

lugha wrote: »

No, they are feeling some of the effect and comparatively speaking, what they have had to endure so far is mild.



My points referred to the deficit, not the debt.



Not sure what you are getting at here? You seem to be under the impression that we have a choice not to address our deficit, whatever the social consequences?



That’s the other thread! I’m addressing the speculated cost of €500 - €1,000 that the property tax will come in at.



I don’t deny that everyone realises that we have a problem. But opinions offered by several posters on the no side clearly indicate that they don’t appreciate how big the problem is. These opinions include:

* Pay cuts for “ordinary” workers in the public sector are unnecessary, as are new taxes.

* We’ll be out of this mess in 2 or 3 years

* If we could find jobs for the ~ 10% of the unemployed who would prefer to work this would make serious inroads in out deficit problem

* If politicians / advisors / top civil servants were paid more realistic salaries, this too would make inroads in out deficit problem

* If we had better political leaders of greater integrity / honesty / ability, things would be a lot better

And one from your good self



* The crisis was not the people’s fault / the ordinary worker had no more to give (i.e. the ordinary worker cannot do anything about the deficit so some other way (there isn’t one!) has to be found.)

Could I just say this, everyone knows that we will have to pay more tax.
I know that everyone will have to pay more to get us out of this mess.

We have to work out a way that is fair to everyone.

We would like to know that when we do get out of the mess, in 5 or 10 years that we'll get something back, ie reduced property tax etc.

Fear should not be a policy, fairness should.....

paddy147

Did "someone" from Fine Gael say something about creating 100,000 jobs by 2014??

Or is that just another pile of bullshyte talk from FG??????

FG are relying on mass emmigration of the young and jobless,so they can try and twist the figures to their own advantage,and claims their policies are a success.

View

kr7 wrote: »

We would like to know that when we do get out of the mess, in 5 or 10 years that we'll get something back, ie reduced property tax etc.

That is not going to happen.

Taxes pay for services ultimately. If you want reduced taxes that means you need to have even more reduced services (more cutbacks). So, unless we are all willing to stop constantly complaining about our existing services and opt for worse ones, taxes are going up and wil stay up.

Dub XV

Imagine how the government would look if they start cutting services whilst standing by the Croke Park agreement.

Then when they point at average Jo, working away trying to keep his/her show on the road, and try to blame them. People will see through this pile of ****e.

bhamsteve

alastair wrote: »

Your car is just as private, your salary is just as hard earned from the fruits of your labour - and yet you pay taxes on those. There's nothing special about your house that would differentiate it in terms of taxation. Houses used to be liable for rates - same thing. Go anywhere else in the world and buy a house - pay property tax or rates. Government incompetence didn't create the deficit - although it certainly didn't do much to stop it - and the deficit is still real enough - even it's entirely someone elses' fault - no-one's going to carry the can except us. Sad but true.

Your car stops being private the minute it leaves your drive and drive along public roads. Are you really too thick to see that or are you just rubbishing everything that people put forward on this thread? You are becoming tiresome.

bhamsteve

And all this talk of refuse collection is annoying me too. I can currently get away with emptying the bin once a month, costing me 120 per year, and I'd like it to stay this way. I'd rather be out the front of the house jumping up and down on the bin to get another week out of it than paying twice as much and employing a few more civil servants to oversee it.

alastair

halkar wrote: »

I do not understand this tax. Mortgage holders are not house owners. Houses are owned by the banks. They should be the ones paying the property taxes until mortgages cleared and title deeds passed. There are many clauses in the mortgage applications remind you that you do not own the house until all of the loan is paid.

You own your house the moment you sign the papers for it. You owe the bank a sum of money on which the house is used as collateral. It's a lien. There's nothing in your mortgage which says you don't own the house until the loan is paid off.

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

Shall we start with refuse collection, GP visits,prescription charges, school books, school transport and meals?

GP visits and prescription charges have nothing to do with the council charge. And what has any of this got to do with the mechanism of enforcing collection of the tax?

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

Pride comes before a fall!

Maybe your friends haven't noticed that the property charge will be quite different next year, and will be administered by the Revenue, so that should keep you happy.

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

Could I just say this, everyone knows that we will have to pay more tax.
I know that everyone will have to pay more to get us out of this mess.

We have to work out a way that is fair to everyone.

We would like to know that when we do get out of the mess, in 5 or 10 years that we'll get something back, ie reduced property tax etc.

Fear should not be a policy, fairness should.....

Fear. :rolleyes:

What we'll get out of this is a level of taxation that looks pretty much like other european countries - ie: an ongoing higher personal taxation burden. Anyone telling you otherwise is a snakeoil merchant.

alastair

bhamsteve wrote: »

Your car stops being private the minute it leaves your drive and drive along public roads. Are you really too thick to see that or are you just rubbishing everything that people put forward on this thread? You are becoming tiresome.

No it doesn't. It's your private property. Same as your house.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

No it doesn't. It's your private property. Same as your house.

Clampers are allowed to clamp my private property?

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

Clampers are allowed to clamp my private property?

And? You believe that your car isn't private property because your house can't be clamped? Your house can be seized if you break certain laws, just as your car can be if it does. They're both private property.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

And? You believe that your car isn't private property because your house can't be clamped? Your house can be seized if you break certain laws, just as your car can be if it does. They're both private property.

Fancy a pint later Al?

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

Maybe your friends haven't noticed that the property charge will be quite different next year, and will be administered by the Revenue, so that should keep you happy.

By the way, kr, ring all your friends that emigrated and I will ring all mine and we will tell them all to come back, cause the Revenue is gonna be collecting the property tax. That really should make them feel a whole lot better, they'll be back in a shot.

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

By the way, kr, ring all your friends that emigrated and I will ring all mine and we will tell them all to come back, cause the Revenue is gonna be collecting the property tax. That really should make them feel a whole lot better, they'll be back in a shot.

Maybe what was attracting so many people to come to live here was the absence of a property tax and they will all go home now.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0330/1224314100736.html

The number of people born outside Ireland but living here increased by 25 per cent to 766,770 in the period 2006-2011. This occurred despite the decline in the economy which when expanding attracted many thousands here.

Meanwhile all the Irish overseas are no doubt organising protests against unfair and unjust property taxes.

darkhorse

later12 wrote: »

The logic behind a property tax (in normal economies) is that householders with a long term interest in a property benefit from the improvements that local authorities make to their area. This gives the householder a more valuable property, or in the case of long term lessees, gives them 'more bang for their buck' in terms of what they are getting for the rent they pay.

It's not really fair to ask more transient lessees to pay for the infrastructural utility of living in a certain area, as their fixation to that local authority, and therefore the benefit they derive, is less permanent.

Also if this methodology was employed, whats to stop people who rent, whether from LA or from landlords, from transferring houses every couples of years within the same area.
Let me tell ya, I am receiving the same services today as I was five years ago where I live and I guarantee you that I will be receiving the same services this time next year when they will be looking for more money. In other words, it is much easier for someone renting to up stakes and move than it is for a house owner. I am living here a long, long time, but the reason I gave five years as an example was because that was the last time that I got any rise in wages, but cost of living did'nt stay static in the meantime. So I for one have much less disposable income, but they keep expecting me to pay more in all different kinds of taxes, does not matter what heading that you put on them. I am sure that there are a lot of people in the same position. Now, you dont have to be an economist to suss that this is a recipe for disaster. Anyway, as I said on another post recently, whether I want to pay or not, I just havent got it to pay.

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Maybe what was attracting so many people to come to live here was the absence of a property tax and they will all go home now.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0330/1224314100736.html

The number of people born outside Ireland but living here increased by 25 per cent to 766,770 in the period 2006-2011. This occurred despite the decline in the economy which when expanding attracted many thousands here.

Meanwhile all the Irish overseas are no doubt organising protests against unfair and unjust property taxes.

Or maybe, just maybe it was the generous welfare system.

kr7

View wrote: »

GP visits and perscription charges are paid by central government (the NHS) so this is not related to Council Tax.

As for the others, refuse is covered. School books are - at least at primary level - essentially non-existent. School transport and school meals are covered only if you live further than a specified "walking distance" from the nearest school (circa 3 miles I think) and have an income level which falls below a specified low income threshold.

PS The cost of the Council tax (based on property valuation) plus water was just under £3k per annum where I lived in the UK.

And do you mind me asking who was liable for that tax where you lived?
Did LA tenants have to pay it?
Did private renters have to pay it too?
Was it based on income?

GP and perscription charges taken care of too?

What do we get?

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

So I for one have much less disposable income, but they keep expecting me to pay more in all different kinds of taxes, does not matter what heading that you put on them. I am sure that there are a lot of people in the same position. Now, you dont have to be an economist to suss that this is a recipe for disaster. Anyway, as I said on another post recently, whether I want to pay or not, I just havent got it to pay.

There aren't that many with the same disposable income they had five years ago. That's not really the point. The overheads on keeping the country running, and dealing with the deficit - are a reality regardless. The fact is that we have been paying insufficient personal taxation for a long time. Compare our rates to any other european state and see where we sit. The economic position we are in requires two remedies: reduction in spend, and increase in revenues. Our scope for fiscal stimulus to boost employment and consequent revenue are hugely constrained because we can't access more loans.

So - if we all have to contribute more to dig ourselves out of this hole (and the reality is we do), there really isn't a painless means of doing that. Pretending that you can't afford it doesn't really wash when regular Joes with similar incomes manage it in neighbouring states.

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

Or maybe, just maybe it was the generous welfare system.

It's not particularly generous on european terms.

http://www.eapn.ie/documents/1_Social%20Welfare%20How%20Ireland%20Compares%20in%20Europe.pdf

kr7

bhamsteve wrote: »

Your car stops being private the minute it leaves your drive and drive along public roads. Are you really too thick to see that or are you just rubbishing everything that people put forward on this thread? You are becoming tiresome.

He loves his car tax....LOL

kr7

alastair wrote: »

Maybe your friends haven't noticed that the property charge will be quite different next year, and will be administered by the Revenue, so that should keep you happy.

Your funny :rolleyes:
Just as well nobody takes you seriously!

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

GP and perscription charges taken care of too?

Nothing to do with council charges - like the man clearly stated.