Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

mikom

alastair wrote: »

Which coalition do you fantasise is going to be elected

Gianna Michaels and Nikki Rhodes.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

What exactly do you believe you'll be 'paying three times' for? Keeping in mind that you're not currently covering the costs of existing services (more so if you're not paying your household charge)?

Once again I'll tell you Alastair.

I pay income tax, I pay motor tax, I pay vat. You yourself told me ALL of this money goes indirectly to la services, right? (paid once)

We have all been told that as the income tax, vat, prsi, usc, vrt etc etc did not/is not covering all of the la services, various services needed to be paid for separately, hence why we pay for the gp, the refuse collection, fire/ambulance service etc etc etc. (paid again)

Now we're told that a property tax must be introduced to pay for the services also. At a grand a year (being speculated) yet no reductions on the numerous taxes listed above, nor the abolition of separate charges as I listed above. (expected to pay again)

How many times do they expect to be paid for the same thing










(I make it 3)

alastair

mikom wrote: »

Gianna Michaels and Nikki Rhodes.

Remarkable how quickly the bluster disappears when called out.

mikom

alastair wrote: »

Remarkable how quickly the bluster disappears when called out.

Remarkable?
Your all-seeing eye not anticipate that one?

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

Once again I'll tell you Alastair.

I pay income tax, I pay motor tax, I pay vat. You yourself told me ALL of this money goes incorrectly to la services, right? (paid once)

Partially contributed to once - sure. Paid for? No. (I never told you all general taxation went to local services - obviously).

Ghandee wrote: »

We have all been told that as the income tax, vat, prsi, usc, vrt etc etc did not/is not covering all of the la services, various services needed to be paid for separately, hence why we pay for the gp, the refuse collection, fire/ambulance service etc etc etc. (paid again)

The GP is nothing to do with local authority services. If your council doesn't collect refuse - then that's a separate payment. So that leaves us at general taxation - which again, is a partial payment. The remainder currently carried by borrowings. The call-out charge for the fire brigade is an extra charge within local authority services alright - but you would have to imagine most of those would be covered by insurance. What have your outgoings for fire engine call-outs been to date?

Ghandee wrote: »

Now we're told that a property tax must be introduced to pay for the services also. At a grand a year (being speculated) yet no reductions on the numerous taxes listed above, nor the abolition of separate charges as I listed above. (expected to pay again)

Yes - a taxation increase in the form of a property tax. Added to the partial payment mechanism of general taxation - that would be two payment mechanisms - just like they have in the UK. Owners of commercial premises are all too aware of this arrangement - they've been paying rates for years - for no additional services.

Ghandee wrote: »

How many times do they expect to be paid for the same thing
(I make it 3)

No need for confusion - they'd like services paid for just the once - through general taxation, rates, and property taxation.

bgrizzley

alastair wrote: »

No need for confusion - they'd like services paid for just the once - through general taxation, rates, and property taxation.

you should do stand up Alastair:D

alastair

bgrizzley wrote: »

you should do stand up Alastair:D

Nothing funny about it - what's really funny is those who rail on about the local authorities getting paid multiple times, while they ensure the same authorities don't get their full single resource stream by evading taxes.

mikom

alastair wrote: »

Nothing funny about it - what's really funny is those who rail on about the local authorities getting paid multiple times, while they ensure the same authorities don't get their full resourcing by evading taxes.

*said the Poll tax evader.*

alastair

mikom wrote: »

*said the Poll tax evader.*

Yep that's right - I didn't pay my poll tax - doesn't change the facts though.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

Partially contributed to once - sure. Paid for? No. (I never told you all general taxation went to local services - obviously).

With the shortfall paid for if and when its needed. (to the emergency services/school/hospital etc)

alastair wrote: »

The GP is nothing to do with local authority services.

Maybe not, but I bundled the GP under 'health'.

alastair wrote: »

If your council doesn't collect refuse - then that's a separate payment.

But its included in the UK council tax, or in the norths rates which our property tax gets continuosly compared to.

alastair wrote: »

The call-out charge for the fire brigade is an extra charge within local authority services alright - but you would have to imagine most of those would be covered by insurance. What have your outgoings for fire engine call-outs been to date?

Irrelevant tbh, even if I only needed to call them out once this year, It would be near €500 more expensive than calling them out an unlimited number of times in the UK/ six counties.

alastair wrote: »

Yes - a taxation increase in the form of a property tax. Added to the partial payment mechanism of general taxation - that would be two payment mechanisms - just like they have in the UK. Owners of commercial premises are all too aware of this arrangement - they've been paying rates for years - for no additional services.

Oh, so we'll start to see the abolishment of at least some of the charges then so? Obviously if its expected to be paid for now through a property tax system (where it wasnt previously) surely the savings will be passed on to the end user, or as previously suggested, done away with completely?

alastair wrote: »

No need for confusion - they'd like services paid for just the once - through general taxation, rates, and property taxation.

You seem to be the one confused Alastair, continuos comparison to how things work in other countries, and taxes paid there compared to here, but when presented with examples of how we already pay for various things (like the GP or Refuse collection) suddenly their 'not part of an LA's service anyway'

It has to be one of the other.

mikom

alastair wrote: »

Yep that's right - I didn't pay my poll tax - doesn't change the facts though.

Yep, that you were a tax evader who now likes to lecture others on how they should pay tax.

Up next on the alastair channel........... Supernanny, with guest host Gary Glitter.

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

With the shortfall paid for if and when its needed.

By borrowings.

Ghandee wrote: »

Maybe not, but I bundled the GP under 'health'.

Still nothing to do with your local authority.

Ghandee wrote: »

But its included in the UK council tax, or in the norths rates which our property tax gets continuosly compared to.

And again - they pay higher rates of taxation for that service. You pay more taxes - you might get local authority refuse collection back - it'll be lots more taxes though.

Ghandee wrote: »

Irrelevant tbh, even if I only needed to call them out once this year, It would be near €500 more expensive than calling them out an unlimited number of times in the UK/ six counties.

And it would probably be covered by your insurance - costing you precisely zilch.

Ghandee wrote: »

Oh, so we'll start to see the abolishment of at least some of the charges then so? Obviously if its expected to be paid for now through a property tax system (where it wasnt previously) surely the savings will be passed on to the end user, or as previously suggested, done away with completely?

You'll see no charges abolished - it's an increase in taxation to cover a shortfall - not juggling.

Ghandee wrote: »

You seem to be the one confused Alastair, continuos comparison to how things work in other countries, and taxes paid there compared to here, but when presented with examples of how we already pay for various things (like the GP or Refuse collection) suddenly their 'not part of an LA's service anyway'

It has to be one of the other.

Again the GP is, and was never anything to do with your local authority. Local Authorities are not in the refuse collection game any more - so they won't be asking anything from you in that regard. I'm sure you could add 'car insurance' to that list and it would look great in terms of your personal overhead - but it equally has nothing to do with local authority services.

alastair

mikom wrote: »

Yep, that you were a tax evader who now likes to lecture others on how they should pay tax.

Up next on the alastair channel........... Supernanny, with guest host Gary Glitter.

No lecture - just bringing a bit of clarity to the bluster of others. I note you're not arguing the facts.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

By borrowings.



Still nothing to do with your local authority.




And again - they pay higher rates of taxation for that service. You pay more taxes - you might get local authority refuse collection back - it'll be lots more taxes though.



And it would probably be covered by your insurance - costing you precisely zilch.



You'll see no charges abolished - it's an increase in taxation to cover a shortfall - not juggling.




Again the GP is, and was never anything to do with your local authority. Local Authorities are not in the refuse collection game any more - so they won't be asking anything from you in that regard. I'm sure you could add 'car insurance' to that list and it would look great in terms of your personal overhead - but it equally has nothing to do with local authority services.

What do rates pay for?

http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/rates/money.asp

bin collections and recycling
leisure centres
parks
events
council venues
street cleaning
economic indicatives
building control

And

education
health
personal social services
housing
roads
sewerage
water.

Now, will that please stop you comparing what rates gets the payers in the north, with what the property tax will get us?

mikom

alastair wrote: »

No lecture - just bringing a bit of clarity to the bluster of others. I note you're not arguing the facts.

Facts?
Like the fact that you evaded the poll tax in the UK?
A tax that you were told at the time was vital for the running of the country.

Look familiar........... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/PollTaxLeaflet.png/286px-PollTaxLeaflet.png

ilovesleep

ilovesleep wrote: »

The UK has the NHS/free healthcare
Also free childcare
They also have the opting out from their tv license. They could have a tv used for example dvds or gaming. They also have two rates for the tv license 1) colour 2) black and white (cheaper).
They get refuse and other services for their council tax.
Medicines and foods are cheaper.

Trouble is we spend as much per person on the HSE as the Brits do on the NHS. Either spending has to come down or taxes have to go up.

emo72

how does the ignore button work? if someone is put on it will i not see their posts any more?

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

What do rates pay for?

http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/rates/money.asp

Now, will that please stop you comparing what rates gets the payers in the north, with what the property tax will get us?

I don't know how many times this needs to be stated, but here's a handy crib sheet:

UK Taxation supporting local services > Irish taxation supporting local services.
UK scope of local services > Irish scope of local services.
UK local services supported by general taxation, rates, council tax
Irish local services supported by general taxation, rates, property tax

What bonus services does anyone get for paying through the mechanisms above? None - bar the satisfaction of not borrowing for same services.

alastair

mikom wrote: »

Facts?
Like the fact that you evaded the poll tax in the UK?
A tax that you were told at the time was vital for the running of the country.

I was thinking more of the fact that the outcome of the next election is not going to be a coalition opposed to property taxation.

Seems rather more relevant to the subject to hand.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

I don't know how many times this needs to be stated, but here's a handy crib sheet:

UK Taxation supporting local services > Irish taxation supporting local services.
UK scope of local services > Irish scope of local services.
UK local services supported by general taxation, rates, council tax (but do not have to pay seperately for education/health/emergency services etc etc etc)
Irish local services supported by general taxation, rates, property tax (but will have to pay seperately for education/health/emergency services etc etc etc)

What bonus services does anyone get for paying through the mechanisms above? None - bar the satisfaction of not borrowing for same services.

FYP

tayto lover

alastair wrote: »

Yep that's right - I didn't pay my poll tax - doesn't change the facts though.

You have a neck lecturing other people. You above all. You'd make a good F.G. politician, "do not as I do, do as I say".

mikom

alastair wrote: »

I was thinking more of the fact that the outcome of the next election is not going to be a coalition opposed to property taxation.

Seems rather more relevant to the subject to hand.

Labour or conservative........... or possibly UKIP...

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

FYP

What part of greater range of services for greater taxation passed you by?

And have you seen what third level education costs in the UK these days?

alastair

tayto lover wrote: »

You have a neck lecturing other people. You above all. You'd make a good F.G. politician, "do not as I do, do as I say".

Not interested in engaging with the facts then? Typical.

H2UMrsRobinson

I actually disagree with posters who think tenants should pay too. But I'm a private tenant so no surprise there.
I don't object to paying this tax per se, but I do object to paying it INSTEAD of my landlord. Rents are overinflated and ridiculously high as it is compared to the price of property at the moment. Say I'm a landlord with x5 two bedroom flats in Dublin charging €1000 per month for each. Should I pay nothing towards LA services out of my 60k whilst my tenants are paying the equivalent of 13 months rent every year. No - that's unfair IMO.
If I don't have a car, I don't pay car tax.
If I don't have an income, I don't pay income tax.
So I'll be damned if I'm paying someone else's property tax. SEEING AS I DON'T HAVE A PROPERTY.
And yes I know the landlord is only going to pass this cost onto me eventually - not a lot I can do about that, except take my business elsewhere - but it's ultimately his responsibility to pay the initial outlay and be responsible for any non-payment/arrears of this tax. I don't want the hassle of it. That's why I rent - for a relatively hassle free life."

P.s Don't want this to sound like an "all landlords are fatcat slumlords" rant. I know most are just normal people renting out one or two propertys and I do get how this is an added expense. Especially if your house is not rented out. (it's just mine thats a cnut )

alastair

H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »

I know the landlord is only going to pass this cost onto me eventually - not a lot I can do about that, except take my business elsewhere - but it's ultimately his responsibility to pay the initial outlay and be responsible for any non-payment/arrears of this tax. I don't want the hassle of it. That's why I rent - for a relatively hassle free life.

They will be responsible for any arrears etc. You'll probably just have to subsidise them!

tayto lover

alastair wrote: »

Not interested in engaging with the facts then? Typical.

You refused to pay your Poll Tax on principle but criticize others who refuse to pay their Home Tax on principle. There's facts for you.

alastair

tayto lover wrote: »

You refused to pay your Poll Tax on principle but criticize others who refuse to pay their Home Tax on principle. There's facts for you.

Exactly what principle are you refusing to pay for. Spit it out.

H2UMrsRobinson

alastair wrote: »

They will be responsible for any arrears etc. You'll probably just have to subsidise them!

Probably - what can you do though, except rant your little heart out on boards and just keep swimming...!

kr7

Ghandee wrote: »

Once again I'll tell you Alastair.

I pay income tax, I pay motor tax, I pay vat. You yourself told me ALL of this money goes indirectly to la services, right? (paid once)

We have all been told that as the income tax, vat, prsi, usc, vrt etc etc did not/is not covering all of the la services, various services needed to be paid for separately, hence why we pay for the gp, the refuse collection, fire/ambulance service etc etc etc. (paid again)

Now we're told that a property tax must be introduced to pay for the services also. At a grand a year (being speculated) yet no reductions on the numerous taxes listed above, nor the abolition of separate charges as I listed above. (expected to pay again)

How many times do they expect to be paid for the same thing










(I make it 3)

Jesus Ghandee, It didn't take him long to find us!

Shall I do the same as on the HHC thread??;)