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Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

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    #2552
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    kr7 wrote: »
    Your argument is 'we must force home owners to pay property tax'.

    I'll ask you again, as have other posters, have you any other ideas on how to bring the deficit down or is a property tax the only way?

    Talk about deflection!

    Yeah you have asked me that before and I have answered it before if you bother to remember.


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    #2553
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I don't see that happening though and believe this is just a finance collecting effort by the Govt to pay bondholders and bank debts while collecting this for services we won't get.

    http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6826/taxbill.jpg


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    #2554
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    tayto lover wrote: »
    1. People in so-called "unfinished estates" should not escape either. What is not finished about them? As far as i can see all that's unfinished are the roads and where i live the roads are brutal, so there's no difference.
    2. Renters should also pay their share as should LA tenants.
    3. If they call it a new name and not target my home then i'll even pay it too providing i'm getting the services like proper roads, water, bin collection etc. I don't see that happening though and believe this is just a finance collecting effort by the Govt to pay bondholders and bank debts while collecting this for services we won't get.
    Why not call it a Service Tax and give us the services to go with it?

    A few LA's have got rid of their bin collection services as they were making a loss so they wont be bringing them back regardless of how much property tax or tax by another name we pay. As for water we will be paying for that soon enough. And again with roads you may and i say that loosely see an improvement in the roads when the LA's have the money to fix them.

    You seem to want to receive a service before you pay for it, most places make you pay for a service and then provide you with it. You dont buy food in a shop go home cook it and eat and then go back to the shop and pay for it do you?


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    #2555
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    donalg1 wrote: »
    A few LA's have got rid of their bin collection services as they were making a loss so they wont be bringing them back regardless of how much property tax or tax by another name we pay.

    There's only two (iirc) Irish local authorities still involved in residential refuse collection - and they're both stopping soon. The only way that local authorities will get back into the refuse collection game is with the level of funding that is typical of the UK - ie: way more than will be the case here - even with the new property tax. UK local authorities themselves have been coming under pressure with refuse collection provision, and cutbacks have already started.


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    #2556
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,395 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    tayto lover wrote: »
    1. People in so-called "unfinished estates" should not escape either. What is not finished about them? As far as i can see all that's unfinished are the roads and where i live the roads are brutal, so there's no difference.


    You can't be serious?


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    #2557
    Red_Wake
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Red_Wake


    noodler wrote: »
    You can't be serious?

    If he has to pay, it's only fair that everyone has to pay:pac:


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    #2558
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    It seems €100m of the target €160m has now been collected.
    It comes as the Local Government Management Agency says it's received over €100m in payment from the 1m households who've so far registered for the charge.


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    #2559
    eth0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    alastair wrote: »
    http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6826/taxbill.jpg

    Just over 100e per month. Slightly more than the top end estimate for property tax. what a coincidence


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    #2560
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    eth0 wrote: »
    Just over 100e per month. Slightly more than the top end estimate for property tax. what a coincidence

    Yes - a remarkable coincidence, except, that's the outgoings for all households - not just the properties liable for the tax, and then there's the awkward matter of the remaining 95% of tax spend to account for.


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    #2561
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    alastair wrote: »
    The link related to child benefit in the UK - and the problem's they're having with moving away from universal provision.

    I protested payment of the poll tax - which is nothing like a property tax. The tax I was paying was closer to what we'll be getting next year.

    I've no problem with a rates/council charge type system being established here - but that's not what we're getting - we're getting a property tax - which clearly doesn't apply to those without property. Both are perfectly just systems. That you've a bee in your bonnet that local authority renters won't be stung for a tax that they're not liable for is your problem - but not one you've managed to articulate beyond base spite - and that's being honest.

    I'm not spiteful by nature, and consequently don't have a problem with being liable for a just tax that other's are not.

    Absolutely nothing to do with spite.
    Everything to do a 'just' system.

    This country has turned into a nanny/welfare state where one section of society are being asked to carry another.

    Enough is enough.

    I refuse to play that game anymore, this tax is the last straw and there's not a chance in hell of me paying it while others get a free ride.


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    #2562
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    This country has turned into a nanny/welfare state where one section of society are being asked to carry another.

    That sounds like a fairly spiteful attitude to me.


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    #2563
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    alastair wrote: »
    That sounds like a fairly spiteful attitude to me.

    You'd be wrong there.

    Are the British government being spiteful when they make renters etc. pay? or are they just a bit more fair minded and pragmatic than the government here?


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    #2564
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    You'd be wrong there.

    I think you'll find most people don't have a problem with the notion of a welfare state - UK included.


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    #2565
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    alastair wrote: »
    I think you'll find most people don't have a problem with the notion of a welfare state - UK included.

    Do people on welfare in the UK pay council tax in the UK?


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    #2566
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    Do people on welfare in the UK pay council tax in the UK?

    It depends what kind of welfare they're claiming. 6 million people claimed Council Tax Benefit last year.


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    #2567
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    It seems €100m of the target €160m has now been collected.

    Does not add up.

    More propaganda me thinks.
    The agency responsible for collecting the household charge says it will send a second round of reminder letters to those yet to pay the charge.

    It comes as the Local Government Management Agency says it's received over €100m in payment from the 1m households who've so far registered for the charge.

    The LGMA will for the first time warn recipients that legal action may be taken if they fail to

    Firstly, it has collected over 100million from the 1 million (at 100€ per house?)

    Secondly, it does say, and I quote 'who've so far registered' how many registerd to claim expemtion?

    Sorry FG/Lab.
    I've still to meet more people that have paid than the 2 I've already met.

    Doesnt wash with me, nope.


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    #2568
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Does not add up.

    More propaganda me thinks.



    Firstly, it has collected over 100million from the 1 million (at 100€ per house?)

    Secondly, it does say, and I quote 'who've so far registered' how many registerd to claim expemtion?

    Sorry FG/Lab.
    I've still to meet more people that have paid than the 2 I've already met.

    Doesnt wash with me, nope.

    You're not allowing for late penalty charges. 200,000 paid an extra 20 euro or whatever.


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    #2569
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    alastair wrote: »
    You're not allowing for late penalty charges. 200,000 paid an extra 20 euro or whatever.

    On the ball!

    Dam pesky late fees :(


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    #2570
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    Can anyone get a figure on how much it cost to collect?

    Isn't it mad, all the hassle, all the fighting, all the bad press for the government, all the pitting people against each other, and for what? €100 million?

    Loose change in the overall scheme of things.

    The government would be better off using their energy trying to secure a debt restructuring programme or better still a debt write off.


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    #2571
    Red_Wake
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Red_Wake


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Does not add up.

    More propaganda me thinks.



    Firstly, it has collected over 100million from the 1 million (at 100€ per house?)

    Secondly, it does say, and I quote 'who've so far registered' how many registerd to claim expemtion?

    Sorry FG/Lab.
    I've still to meet more people that have paid than the 2 I've already met.

    Doesnt wash with me, nope.

    Who would you consider an impartial source for the amount collected by the HHC?


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    #2572
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    Can anyone get a figure on how much it cost to collect?

    Isn't it mad, all the hassle, all the fighting, all the bad press for the government, all the pitting people against each other, and for what? €100 million?

    Loose change in the overall scheme of things.

    Yeah - a mere €100 million plus penalties this for the roll-out year - a multiple of that for each year thereafter. I'm not sure who's been pitted against each other though. It's just another tax that you have to pay - at a time when it's more needed than ever.


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    #2573
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    alastair wrote: »
    Yeah - a mere €100 million plus penalties this for the roll-out year - a multiple of that for each year thereafter. I'm not sure who's been pitted against each other though. It's just another tax that you have to pay - at a time when it's more needed than ever.

    A pittance in the overall scheme of things.
    We borrow €300 million a week.

    A bullsh1te tax brought in by a government devoid of any real ideas on how to tackle our problems.

    Almost 18 months in power and the economy is still in a death spiral.

    I won't be helping them to screw the people of this country for more and they won't get a property tax out of me.

    They can put me up with Sean Quinn's son in that holiday camp!

    BTW,
    How much did that other great tax, the 'septic tank tax' bring in?
    A couple of hundred euro's? LOL.


  • Options
    #2574
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    kr7 wrote: »
    Have you ever heard the expression 'enough is enough'? or 'the straw that broke the camel's back'?

    But why then is there no great calls for a review of all aspects of social welfare? Why are you, and others, focused on one specific benefit available in a welfare state? Surely if there was a groundswell of opinion that favoured a curbing of our welfare state, the battle would be on a much broader front? Why not refuse to pay income tax (you are self employed, are you not?) unless the dole is abolished for example?

    The truth is that this unfairness argument was never really a reason for the objection to the HHC / property tax despite it’s appeal (being able to argue that something is unfair is always a good card to be able to play).
    kr7 wrote: »
    It's quite hard to believe in this day and age and with things the way they are that numerous posters on here think it's ok for a vast section of society to be exempt from contributing to the cost of the local services they avail of.

    And people are exempt from the cost of primary health care if they hold medical cards, exempt from the cost of living if the receive the dole, exempt from the cost (much of it) of their home if they are housed by a LA, exempt from the cost (much of it) of educating their children etc. etc. etc. And all in this day and age too!!!

    But somehow, despite all of these injustices against the oppressed private sector workers, who pay for all of this, you are only stirred to rebellious action to fight against one of the more trivial ones? This “discriminatory tax” sound bite sounds good but it doesn’t really stand up to much scrutiny.
    kr7 wrote: »
    Why should private renters be exempt?
    They choose to live in private rented homes, that's their choice.
    They still use the exact same services as everyone else.

    The owner of the properties will not be exempt. They may or may not pass the costs on to their tenants. It doesn’t concern me one way or another if they do or not and I am not sure why you should care either?


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    #2575
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    A pittance in the overall scheme of things.
    We borrow €300 million a week.
    Glad you acknowledge the severity of the problem - every little helps.
    kr7 wrote: »
    A bullsh1te tax brought in by a government devoid of any real ideas on how to tackle our problems.
    Sez you. An additional source of revenue in a context of a massive taxation shortfall to most.
    kr7 wrote: »
    Almost 18 months in power and the economy is still in a death spiral.
    You wanted instant results? You looked beyond our borders to see how everyone else is faring?
    kr7 wrote: »
    I won't be helping them to screw the people of this country for more and they won't get a property tax out of me.
    Oh yes they will.
    kr7 wrote: »
    They can put me up with Sean Quinn's son in that holiday camp!
    No need.
    kr7 wrote: »
    BTW,
    How much did that other great tax, the 'septic tank tax' bring in?
    A couple of hundred euro's? LOL.
    You think registering septic tanks is a tax?


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    #2576
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    lugha wrote: »
    But why then is there no great calls for a review of all aspects of social welfare? Why are you, and others, focused on one specific benefit available in a welfare state? Surely if there was a groundswell of opinion that favoured a curbing of our welfare state, the battle would be on a much broader front? Why not refuse to pay income tax (you are self employed, are you not?) unless the dole is abolished for example?

    The truth is that this unfairness argument was never really a reason for the objection to the HHC / property tax despite it’s appeal (being able to argue that something is unfair is always a good card to be able to play).



    And people are exempt from the cost of primary health care if they hold medical cards, exempt from the cost of living if the receive the dole, exempt from the cost (much of it) of their home if they are housed by a LA, exempt from the cost (much of it) of educating their children etc. etc. etc. And all in this day and age too!!!

    But somehow, despite all of these injustices against the oppressed private sector workers, who pay for all of this, you are only stirred to rebellious action to fight against one of the more trivial ones? This “discriminatory tax” sound bite sounds good but it doesn’t really stand up to much scrutiny.



    The owner of the properties will not be exempt. They may or may not pass the costs on to their tenants. It doesn’t concern me one way or another if they do or not and I am not sure why you should care either?

    I've told you 3 or 4 times now that I will pay a tax similar to the 'council tax' in the UK if the make everyone liable for it, including renters and LA tenants.

    That's my position, it won't change.


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    #2577
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    alastair wrote: »

    You think registering septic tanks is a tax?

    You think 'registering' for a household charge is a tax?


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    #2578
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    I've told you 3 or 4 times now that I will pay a tax similar to the 'council tax' in the UK if the make everyone liable for it, including renters and LA tenants.

    That's my position, it won't change.

    Thing is - you don't get to choose. Even if you had a case to make - which you clearly haven't. Your 'position' isn't really going to matter to the Revenue.


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    #2579
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    You think 'registering' for a household charge is a tax?

    It's year one of the property tax - Don't know how many times you need to hear this? The septic tank registration is a one-off arrangement.


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    #2580
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    alastair wrote: »
    Thing is - you don't get to choose. Even if you had a case to make - which you clearly haven't. Your 'position' isn't really going to matter to the Revenue.

    You'd think that, wouldn't you. ;)


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    #2581
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    alastair wrote: »
    It's year one of the property tax - Don't know how many times you need to hear this?

    I could get you definitions of a 'charge' and a 'tax' and put them up here but I can't be arsed.
    You'll still tell me that black is white.:rolleyes:


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