Upcoming Irish property tax to cost 'on average' €1000 per house.(can you afford it?)

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

No spin. Just the facts. It's no accident that every other nation has figured out that property taxation is an essential component of a country's sustainable revenue stream.

When you say every other nation, what you really mean is every other government.

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

The HHC is a tax. I think that fact has been out in the open from day one. Ipso facto - you're a tax cheat.

So, which one of the three letters, HHC, stands for tax.

kr7

darkhorse wrote: »

So, which one of the three letters, HHC, stands for tax.

That would be the 'C' darkhorse, C for tax.:D

Taxes are things like the 'poll tax', the one alastair didn't pay because he thought it was unfair.

darkhorse

tayto lover wrote: »

Hope it works out for you. Sorry to hear that. Will pray for you.

So will I.

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

Yep - I was a poll tax (that was a 'charge' too!) avoider. It still leaves you as an active and current tax cheat though - and one in a sad state of denial.

'Vested interests'. Knock yourself out.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the the poll tax was introduced as a poll tax. However, the HHC was introduced as household registration charge, which was to be a precursor to the impending property tax.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, but the the poll tax was introduced as a poll tax. However, the HHC was introduced as household registration charge, which was to be a precursor to the impending property tax.

That's correct. But just becuause the word "Tax" doesn't appear in its title doesn't mean that it isn't one.

The HHC is a Tax.
Just like the USC is a Tax.
And an Apple is a Fruit.

kr7

dvpower wrote: »

That's correct. But just becuause the word "Tax" doesn't appear in its title doesn't mean that it isn't one.

The HHC is a Tax.
Just like the USC is a Tax.
And an Apple is a Fruit.

And dv is a ?????

BarackPyjama

So let's say this property tax makes sense. How were these services being paid for before? I'm assuming the tax payer was paying for them already, no? Why the need for additional taxation to pay for them suddenly?

kr7

BarackPyjama wrote: »

So let's say this property tax makes sense. How were these services being paid for before? I'm assuming the tax payer was paying for them already, no? Why the need for additional taxation to pay for them suddenly?

We need additional tax for them now because the government has reduced funding from central coffers.
They're doing this everywhere, HSE, LA's, education etc etc.

The money they are now not providing from central funds is been given to unsecured secondary bondholders.

Simple as, although the pro-taxers will deny this.

dvpower

BarackPyjama wrote: »

So let's say this property tax makes sense. How were these services being paid for before? I'm assuming the tax payer was paying for them already, no? Why the need for additional taxation to pay for them suddenly?

There were being funded from central government before, which was overly dependant of transaction based property taxes (e.g. Stamp Duty). These revenue sources have fallen off the cliff due to the crash, so a new, more sustainable, revenue stream is required.


Edit: Or the bondholders, if you want the populist, but inaccurate, answer.

BarackPyjama

kr7 wrote: »

We need additional tax for them now because the government has reduced funding from central coffers.
They're doing this everywhere, HSE, LA's, education etc etc.

The money they are now not providing from central funds is been given to unsecured secondary bondholders.

Precisely. Nice to see the government are implementing a permanent tax that can (probably will) increase year-on-year to solve a temporary problem. So essentially they can continue to bail themselves out of their ongoing incompetence.

BarackPyjama

dvpower wrote: »

There were being funded from central government before, which was overly dependant of transaction based property taxes (e.g. Stamp Duty). These revenue sources have fallen off the cliff due to the crash the government's economic incompetence, so a new, more sustainable, revenue stream permanent form of double taxation is required.

FYP

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

I presume by “we” you mean the people, collectively in the state? Well, to say we don’t have it, or can’t afford it is unfortunately irrelevant. We have to find it somehow, the only question is how much each of us should contribute. Not addressing our deficit is not just ill advised, it is simply not an option.

It is analogous to a situation where someone with a family, large mortgage etc. is about to be made redundant resulting in his net income being reduced by maybe a half or three quarters. Some one (and there are many) in such a dreadful predicament might quite reasonably argue that he simply can not afford to be made redundant. But ultimately he has to face a rather bleak reality. As do we.

(And if you consider that the budget deficit equates to about €10k per worker per year, this redundancy analogy is not a million miles off the mark!)

And the ubiquitous claim that “I cannot afford it” is very vague. Pretty much everyone CAN afford to pay it but will have to sacrifice something in lieu. Having to cancel your Sky contract or home broadband is plainly a different type of “can’t afford” that one that requires you to cancel say your health insurance or turn off your central heating.

But they all get piled in together under the one “can’t afford it umbrella”

Funny that you should bring this up. I did cancel my Sky contract last year, having had it for many years, but like you state here, its a matter of sarcrice, as I could no longer afford it, what with all the cuts in wages and the rising cost of living. Oh, by the way, I am only enjoying having this discussion with you and the other Boardsies, because our Son, who incidentally does'nt live here, is paying our broadband subscription.

kr7

dvpower wrote: »

There were being funded from central government before, which was overly dependant of transaction based property taxes (e.g. Stamp Duty). These revenue sources have fallen off the cliff due to the crash, so a new, more sustainable, revenue stream is required.


Edit: Or the bondholders, if you want the populist, but inaccurate, answer.

So unsecured secondary bondholders are not being paid from central government funds?

dvpower

kr7 wrote: »

So unsecured secondary bondholders are not being paid from central government funds

Mostly bailout money - 'though the interest payments will come from central funds.

kr7

dvpower wrote: »

Mostly bailout money - 'though the interest payments will come from central funds.

That's ok then, here's me thinking it was our tax money.... silly me!

Monty Burnz

kr7 wrote: »

We need additional tax for them now because the government has reduced funding from central coffers.
They're doing this everywhere, HSE, LA's, education etc etc.

The money they are now not providing from central funds is been given to unsecured secondary bondholders.

Simple as, although the pro-taxers will deny this.

We are running a primary fiscal deficit even without the bank bailout money. This is fact. Obviously the banking stuff is piled up on top of that.

dvpower

kr7 wrote: »

That's ok then, here's me thinking it was our tax money.... silly me!

Its mostly borrowed money - not tax money.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

Its mostly borrowed money - not tax money.

Same difference -- we're expected to pay it for those poor old rich friends of FG.

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

Will you quote to me, what tax did kr7 not pay.

The HHC.

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

You have hit the nail on the head there. So, is the solution really to push them over the breadline.

So - you are of the opinion that some special circumstances pertain in Ireland, which means that we're unable to ay the same level taxation that apply in other european states - some of which have levels of salaries below those that apply here? What would that be exactly?

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

Its mostly borrowed money - not tax money.

Must be really confusing for the people who are employed to distribute the money. All the billions, bailout money and money collected from taxes, thrown in a big hat. How do they know which money to take out for to pay for various items.

alastair

tayto lover wrote: »

I paid into my pension scheme for many years ...

Some of it in the public sector, no?

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

Must be really confusing for the people who are employed to distribute the money. All the billions, bailout money and money collected from taxes, thrown in a big hat. How do they know which money to take out for to pay for various items.

What the hell are you on about?

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

When you say every other nation, what you really mean is every other government.

Yep - governments elected by the people to run those nations. It's generally states that apply taxation in nations.

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

So, which one of the three letters, HHC, stands for tax.

Which of the letters USC stands for tax?

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, but the the poll tax was introduced as a poll tax. However, the HHC was introduced as household registration charge, which was to be a precursor to the impending property tax.

Strictly speaking the correct title for the Poll Tax was the 'Community Charge' - it's just that no-one played silly buggers in pretending it wasn't a tax.

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

So unsecured secondary bondholders are not being paid from central government funds?

Your taxes go more than 95% to expenditure unrelated to the bank bailouts. If you want to focus on the portion of that 5% that goes to bondholders on account of an obligation to our lenders, then you'd be missing the bigger picture somewhat.

kr7

alastair wrote: »

Which of the letters USC stands for tax?

Well the USC is taken from your income, which makes it an income tax.

A property tax is only for people with property, property they pay for with what remains of their income.

At the moment we have a charge, a registration fee if you like, that's all.

Select the bit which suits your agenda from the above.

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

That would be the 'C' darkhorse, C for tax.:D

Taxes are things like the 'poll tax', the one alastair didn't pay because he thought it was unfair.

The Community Charge you mean? Like the Universal Social Charge, and the Household Charge - taxes all.