career advice

Boulger

Well, I'm 23 now and I've been working in retail all my life, and to be honest It's killing my soul, recently I've been working A LOT of hours, did 15 days in a row there in two different shops there over the last two weeks. Hard work is not the problem, but i am getting very little in return for my efforts and all the favors I'm doing, minium wage and hefty tax when I do get extra hours, no chance of promotion etc.
My question is do tattoo shops openly advertise when they want an apprentice, as I have never seen this,

At the moment I have two big tattoos so I am not a total newbie, big Japanese tiger on mychest qnd shoulder and two koi on my upper leg.

I haven't had much time to draw over the last few konths but have been drawing all my life and did very well in school with it, I have an online portfolio which can be viewed here

http://boulger.deviantart.com/

Any words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated as I really don't know what to be doing with myself and drawing is the only skill I ever really had.

finality

I wouldn't be able to help you on that, but I think your drawings look great.

Atavan-Halen

Be prepared to earn probably less than minumum wage should you seek a tattoo apprenticeship. It's not really a highly paying job unless you're very talented and have a big customer base. Also it's a very tough industry to get into, also be prepared to be waiting months, possibly years to get an apprenticeship. Sometimes places will advertise online but it's not that common. Best bet is to go around to some studios and see if they're looking. Make sure you have your portfolio and that there's lots of content in it.

Boulger

Update on this, went with my portfolio to one tattoo shop as I heard by chance there apprentice was let go, got offered the apprenticeship, but turned it down.
Cant afford to work for free right now for an unknown amount of time

I'm working one job now anyway full time so its not as bad as before
Saving now and will try again next year with a better portfolio.

D3PO

Boulger wrote: »

Update on this, went with my portfolio to one tattoo shop as I heard by chance there apprentice was let go, got offered the apprenticeship, but turned it down.
Cant afford to work for free right now for an unknown amount of time.

Sorry to be blunt but with your attitude I don't think becoming a tattoo apprentice is for you. If you want to be one you have to work long and hard for little or nothing.

If your not prepared to do that you will never get one. Given how hard it is to get an apprentiship in the industry you probably made one of the worst decision you could have by saying no.

Star Lord

Boulger wrote: »

Cant afford to work for free right now for an unknown amount of time

This is what you'll have to do on any apprenticeship, if you can't do it, you're going to have to think of a different career.

Boulger

D3PO wrote: »

Sorry to be blunt but with your attitude I don't think becoming a tattoo apprentice is for you. If you want to be one you have to work long and hard for little or nothing.

If your not prepared to do that you will never get one. Given how hard it is to get an apprentiship in the industry you probably made one of the worst decision you could have by saying no.

What would you know about my attitude?
It was literally the hardest decision I ever made

I know you have to work for nothing, I would be prepared to do that

When I said I cant afford it, I literally cant, I have bills to pay and I'm on my own when it comes to money, I cant just quit my full time job with no savings, I wouldn't even get the dole for straight away either.

And if I did that I wouldn't be able to even get transport to the shop

Then I would have no job, no income, and more than likely have to leave the apprenticeship, so I don't think it was the worst decision I could have made.

Like I said in my post, I'm saving now so I can try again next year with an even better portfolio.

Boulger

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

This is what you'll have to do on any apprenticeship, if you can't do it, you're going to have to think of a different career.

I'll be able to try again next year when I have money saved
I'm not thinking of a different career, it just happened at the wrong time.

Its not as simple as it sounds "oh just do an apprenticeship"

I need to eat...

D3PO

Boulger wrote: »

I'll be able to try again next year when I have money saved
I'm not thinking of a different career, it just happened at the wrong time.

Its not as simple as it sounds "oh just do an apprenticeship"

I need to eat...

why did you go in looking for the apprenticeship then if you knew you couldn't do it ? All you have done is cut out at least one place who will never give you one.

And studio owners do talk to each other so don't be surprised if you have actually damaged your chances in multiple studios by doing what you did.

all seems a bit silly to go in looking for one , be offered one and then turn it down especially as you say you knew you would have to do it for free. (which everything points to you not actually knowing)

Boulger

D3PO wrote: »

why did you go in looking for the apprenticeship then if you knew you couldn't do it ? All you have done is cut out at least one place who will never give you one.

And studio owners do talk to each other so don't be surprised if you have actually damaged your chances in multiple studios by doing what you did.

all seems a bit silly to go in looking for one , be offered one and then turn it down especially as you say you knew you would have to do it for free. (which everything points to you not actually knowing)

There are other factors to consider, I tried to go part time in my job but there is no chance of that.

I didn't know about the time delay of getting the dole, because I was never on it, I was only advised on this by the owners after

There no harm going in and talking to these people, getting information from the horses mouth, building relationships, drawing on the spot to show you can

It was good for my confidence as I never thought I was good enough, but like I said, I'm giving myself a year so I will have a way to support myself and better content in my portfolio by then too.

Have you got a problem with that?

D3PO

Boulger wrote: »

Have you got a problem with that?

I've no problem at all. Just pointing out how foolish your hap hazard approach was, you need to chill out and be able for criticism.

Weather you like reading what I'm saying or not it doesn't change the reality that what you have done has don't more to harm your chances than it has to help them.

Don't believe me if you don't want to but some of the artists that frequent in here will I'm sure agree with what I've said when they get round to posting.

Boulger

D3PO wrote: »

I've no problem at all. Just pointing out how foolish your hap hazard approach was, you need to chill out and be able for criticism.

Weather you like reading what I'm saying or not it doesn't change the reality that what you have done has don't more to harm your chances than it has to help them.

Don't believe me if you don't want to but some of the artists that frequent in here will I'm sure agree with what I've said when they get round to posting.

I came here looking for advice, If you read the original post

Looks like I upset you by actively going looking for information and looking for a job

How would that damage my chances?

I was apologetic when they asked me to start, I said I was grateful for the opportunity but I just couldn't do it financially.
I wasn't fully informed about the dole before I asked, I just assumed you get it straight away, but you don't

You make it sound like I was messing them around, I wasnt

Star Lord

Boulger I think you're taking D3PO up wrong.
They're not having a go at you, they're simply stating that you will most likely have damaged your chances.
Also, you will NOT be able to claim the dole while on your apprenticeship, simple as that. If you're doing an apprenticeship, then you are not 'available for/looking for' jobs, and so are not eligible for the dole. If you're saving for it, you'll need to save enough to do you for the duration of the apprenticeship, or have another form of income that won't interfere with your apprenticeship.

Boulger

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

Boulger I think you're taking D3PO up wrong.
They're not having a go at you, they're simply stating that you will most likely have damaged your chances.
Also, you will NOT be able to claim the dole while on your apprenticeship, simple as that. If you're doing an apprenticeship, then you are not 'available for/looking for' jobs, and so are not eligible for the dole. If you're saving for it, you'll need to save enough to do you for the duration of the apprenticeship, or have another form of income that won't interfere with your apprenticeship.

I just can't see how it would damage my chances, I can't see why a shop would turn me away (for that reason) fair enough if they didn't like my artwork or whatever.

P_1

Boulger wrote: »

I just can't see how it would damage my chances, I can't see why a shop would turn me away (for that reason) fair enough if they didn't like my artwork or whatever.

But it's not just the quality of your artwork they'd be looking at. They'd also be looking at your reliability and to be honest, pulling out of an apprenticeship when it was offered to you can be seen as a massive black mark against your reliability.

Star Lord

Boulger wrote: »

I just can't see how it would damage my chances, I can't see why a shop would turn me away (for that reason) fair enough if they didn't like my artwork or whatever.

For a shop to take on someone and to train them as an apprentice takes a lot of work and a lot of time for them. By turning it down, it may show that you're not committed enough for them to invest the time in you, as they will have lingering doubt that they could start training you, only to have you drop out again for the same/similar reasons.

Boulger

P_1 wrote: »

But it's not just the quality of your artwork they'd be looking at. They'd also be looking at your reliability and to be honest, pulling out of an apprenticeship when it was offered to you can be seen as a massive black mark against your reliability.

Turning down a job that was offered does not make a person unreliable.
There was plenty of notice on both sides and I said no as soon as it was offered, it's not like they gave me a start date and I just didn't show.

I am reliable and I have references to confirm that when I go for a job.

Boulger

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

For a shop to take on someone and to train them as an apprentice takes a lot of work and a lot of time for them. By turning it down, it may show that you're not committed enough for them to invest the time in you, as they will have lingering doubt that they could start training you, only to have you drop out again for the same/similar reasons.

I wouldn't drop out if I was to start.
That's why there was no point in me starting with no money behind me, that would be a recipe for disaster.
Does nobody understand what I'm saying?

Boulger

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

For a shop to take on someone and to train them as an apprentice takes a lot of work and a lot of time for them. By turning it down, it may show that you're not committed enough for them to invest the time in you, as they will have lingering doubt that they could start training you, only to have you drop out again for the same/similar reasons.

I wouldn't drop out if I was to start.
That's why there was no point in me starting with no money behind me, that would be a recipe for disaster.
Does nobody understand what I'm saying?

Arawn

It's more the fact you don't realise how this industry works. It's a small place, people wait ****ing years to get an apprenticeship and you turn it down. bodice ripper afaik worked nights full time while doing her apprenticeship.

It's a very small closed grouo that you were offered into on yer first try and turned it down.

bodice ripper

Arawn wrote: »

It's more the fact you don't realise how this industry works. It's a small place, people wait ****ing years to get an apprenticeship and you turn it down. bodice ripper afaik worked nights full time while doing her apprenticeship.

It's a very small closed grouo that you were offered into on yer first try and turned it down.

I did. I worked 40 hours night shift and 37 hours apprenticing in the same week some times. It was emotionally, physically and mentally crushing. I never earned a cent from being an apprentice, and nor should anyone.

However, I did get my ducks in a row before taking the apprenticeship. I was in no rush, I had a big portfolio in a variety of media, a degree in art, and 4 years experience as a desk jockey in a parlor.

23, I have worked retail and am sick of it, and here is a bunch of drawings of flash is not enough in my opinion. It might get you the apprenticeship, but you won't be decently prepared. Work on developing yourself and your portfolio, then chase an apprenticeship with the RIGHT person/shop, rather than the first/nearest place.

Boulger

bodice ripper wrote: »

I did. I worked 40 hours night shift and 37 hours apprenticing in the same week some times. It was emotionally, physically and mentally crushing. I never earned a cent from being an apprentice, and nor should anyone.

However, I did get my ducks in a row before taking the apprenticeship. I was in no rush, I had a big portfolio in a variety of media, a degree in art, and 4 years experience as a desk jockey in a parlor.

23, I have worked retail and am sick of it, and here is a bunch of drawings of flash is not enough in my opinion. It might get you the apprenticeship, but you won't be decently prepared. Work on developing yourself and your portfolio, then chase an apprenticeship with the RIGHT person/shop, rather than the first/nearest place.

That cant have been easy, but you were lucky to be able to work around your apprenticeship
That chance just came at the wrong time for me
Everybody seems to be jumping on me here but they just don't get the point not everyone gets their ducks in a row like you said

I cant quit my job and just cross my fingers and hope to get another night job that fits perfectly around an apprenticeship

People are saying I don't know how the industry works, I know well that apprenticeships are few and far between

I had two options after the offer

1)Turn it down, save money, work more on my portfolio
2)Take it, then call them a few weeks later, sorry lads I cant come in today, or ever, cant afford bus fare.

That was the only time I ever actually chased up an apprenticeship, my original post was 15 months ago

I'm in no rush either

I would rather be able to give it my all, then just a few weeks in a shop then run out of money - and let myself and the shop down, and thats what would have happened.

bodice ripper

Boulger wrote: »

That cant have been easy, but you were lucky to be able to work around your apprenticeship
.

I wasn't lucky, I worked like a ****ing dog.


I am not giving you any grief about not taking it. You shouldn't take it. You also shouldn't have gone asking anywhere yet, since the time is not right. Anywhere that is willing to take a random guy who just walked in as they were losing an apprentice is somewhere that doesn't take apprentices very seriously.

Orim

Boulger wrote: »

Everybody seems to be jumping on me here but they just don't get the point not everyone gets their ducks in a row like you said

But they can. And if you haven't got everything ready then you don't go for an apprenticeship. This is the main point people are trying to make. Nothing changed for you (at least from what you've told us) between going for the apprenticeship and getting the offer.

If you want to do it then you need to know what you're getting into before you start the process.

Star Lord

Boulger wrote: »

Everybody seems to be jumping on me here but they just don't get the point not everyone gets their ducks in a row like you said

Honestly, nobody is jumping on you or having a go at you, simply pointing out that by going for one when you were not in a position to take the offer will have ruined your chances in some ways. Yes you were right not to take it when you couldn't have done it, but the mistake was going for it in the first place when you were not ready to do so.

Being somewhat blunt here, but I think you may still not be prepared, as you seem to believe that you will still be able to claim the dole while being on your apprenticeship, and that this is part of your plan. This is not possible, and will not work. You WILL have to be prepared to take on a second job as that will enable you to continue to live and to do your apprenticeship, should you get one. You may think I'm being harsh, or that it's unfair to say this, but the fact of the matter is that this is the only way that it's possible to do so, unless you have a massive pool of cash to draw on that will see you through an apprenticeship!

Marty McFly

Aren't there ways to make money whilst doing you're apprenticeship though?

I'm not saying they all do this but I remember Danny Duggan whilst doing his apprenticeship in Skin City used to do paintings to sell sometimes through the Skin City facebook page to help him earn some money one of which I bought just a possible idea should you get one in the future.

I also think apprentices really should be paid but I'm not getting into that as it's a whole other bag of worms that has been discussed here before.

innad

I see a lot of apprentices on instagram etc. selling prints, t-shirts, paintings and so on. I've bought some of them as well!
[edit: bought the prints and t-shirts I mean, not the apprentices!]

I think doing an apprenticeship is kind of like going back to college full-time - you either have to have enough money saved up to support yourself or be able to work nights or on your days off. It's worth doing, but you wouldn't go applying for a course without knowing how you're going to support yourself while doing it.

Boulger

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

Honestly, nobody is jumping on you or having a go at you, simply pointing out that by going for one when you were not in a position to take the offer will have ruined your chances in some ways. Yes you were right not to take it when you couldn't have done it, but the mistake was going for it in the first place when you were not ready to do so.

Being somewhat blunt here, but I think you may still not be prepared, as you seem to believe that you will still be able to claim the dole while being on your apprenticeship, and that this is part of your plan. This is not possible, and will not work. You WILL have to be prepared to take on a second job as that will enable you to continue to live and to do your apprenticeship, should you get one. You may think I'm being harsh, or that it's unfair to say this, but the fact of the matter is that this is the only way that it's possible to do so, unless you have a massive pool of cash to draw on that will see you through an apprenticeship!

I was prepared to work and apprentice, I asked to go part time in my place but they just don't do that, I'm not afraid of hard work, I'm not lazy, I have a manual job and do 50-60 hours a week, Its evening / night shift but it just doesn't fit around the opening hours of a shop.

Tattoo apprentices, even artists do go on the dole, thats a fact

Marty McFly wrote: »

Aren't there ways to make money whilst doing you're apprenticeship though?

I'm not saying they all do this but I remember Danny Duggan whilst doing his apprenticeship in Skin City used to do paintings to sell sometimes through the Skin City facebook page to help him earn some money one of which I bought just a possible idea should you get one in the future.

I also think apprentices really should be paid but I'm not getting into that as it's a whole other bag of worms that has been discussed here before.

They should be paid, every other trade apprentice is paid,
They are doing a job after all, there are no laws to protect apprentices getting shafted, and I imagine that happens quite a lot

I also think there should be FAS involvment, tattooing is a trade after all
Phase learning, practical in the shop, theory with FAS

I personally think that would cut out lads getting used as cleaners.

innad wrote: »

I see a lot of apprentices on instagram etc. selling prints, t-shirts, paintings and so on. I've bought some of them as well!
[edit: bought the prints and t-shirts I mean, not the apprentices!]

I think doing an apprenticeship is kind of like going back to college full-time - you either have to have enough money saved up to support yourself or be able to work nights or on your days off. It's worth doing, but you wouldn't go applying for a course without knowing how you're going to support yourself while doing it.

There are an array of college grants available, Full time college isn't "Full Time" So if you were lucky and got a job to work, its a hell of a lot easier to work around as you never have a full day, possibly never even a full week.






Why is self leaning so frowned upon, once you are clean and smart about it I don't see the problem?

(When it's done wrong, ok, I get that, I saw pictures on facebook yesterday of a "callout tattoo artist" tattooing a girl on her bed, I know thats wrong, but thats the person doing things wrong, the choice of self learning is not wrong)

It's also wrong to assume the worst in everyone

Its like its the worst thing ever, even to mention it, right up until the artist has a waiting list, then its like, "Yeah hes self taught, hes amazing"

So many closed minded people with one fixed idea of how one thing should be done, its not the 1950's anymore

Where does the bandwagon stop?

innad

Boulger wrote: »

There are an array of college grants available, Full time college isn't "Full Time" So if you were lucky and got a job to work, its a hell of a lot easier to work around as you never have a full day, possibly never even a full week.

A full-time masters is full-time, nearly impossible to work around it and still do well. Most undergrad science courses tend to be 9-5 every day. Also not a lot grants around for taught courses, and they would never be enough to cover your living costs.

Luckily enough I was able to do my masters part-time, so I still worked full-time. I know that's not an option for apprentices.

(sorry for going off topic with this, wasn't my intention!)

P_1

Doing it on the dole is possible provided that you don't get caught. Now it is illegal and that's an ethical call you'd have to make yourself. Things could get quite messy for you if you were to be caught though so be careful and all that

niallam

firstly 15 days in a row in your current job is illegal -

"(a) You are entitled to 11 consecutive hours rest in any period of 24 hours. In addition you should get 24 consecutive hours rest in any period of 7 days and this should normally follow on from one of the 11-hour rest periods already mentioned, or
(b) As an alternative your employer can give you two 24-hour rest periods in the week that follows one in which you did not get the entitlement described in (a) above.
Unless your contract provides otherwise your 24-hour rest period referred to above should include a Sunday."

Also if you leave your job when there is a job there for you you won't be able to claim the dole.

And once you get that sorted then if you are really serious go in to a tattoo shop on your day's off, start watching and learning that way, see how long the hours are and back breaking the work can be, see what it's like to try make a straight line on a person that keeps jumping every time the needle hits their skin...