Rape Victim facing fine for naming victims

childsplay

Jesus Christ, when the **** did I say any of this? FOR THE LAST TIME - BRING DRUNK DOES NOT MAKE YOU THE GUILTY PARTY! I NEVER SAID IT DID. NOR DOES IT ABSOLVE YOU OF ALL RESPONSBIILTY![/QUOTE]

I wasn't trying to twist what you said. I was trying to understand it. I actually agree with you. People need to take responsibility and not get to the point of blacking out. You're right though, being drunk can make you more vulnerable and girls are always going to be more vulnerable than lads. That's just because they are generally less able to fight back and defend themselves.

PrincessLola

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So you'r sayign beign drunk DOES make you the guilty party?

I'm saying NO to your whole post.
Being drunk is not a crime, sexual assault is.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Okay so how is being drunk and crashing a car become anywhere near "being drunk, passed out and having two people violate you"?

The first two words. But then I did say blacking out, not just beign drunk.

If you're blacked out should the law deem you free of responsibility for what happens next? Yes or no. One word asnwer.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

childsplay wrote: »

I wasn't trying to twist what you said. I was trying to understand it. I actually agree with you. People need to take responsibility and not get to the point of blacking out. You're right though, being drunk can make you more vulnerable and girls are always going to be more vulnerable than lads. That's just because they are generally less able to fight back and defend themselves.

In fairness, this was a reply to someone else, who more or less did accuse me of condoneing drunken rape.

PrincessLola wrote: »

I'm saying NO to your whole post.
Being drunk is not a crime, sexual assault is.

I have never argued otherwise. if you actually read my posts, you'd know this.

Tombi!

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The first two words. But then I did say blacking out, not just beign drunk.

If you're blacked out should the law deem you free of responsibility for what happens next? Yes or no. One word asnwer.

You cannot apply a blanket statement like that, at all. But yes, she would be entirely guilty of anything she did while drunk.

But the problem is, she was unconcious and completely unable to say "no" or stop them at all.
So in the answer to your question: yes, she should be.
So either you just randomly posted in this topic or else you're trying to make out that her being unconcious was her own fault.

humbert

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The first two words. But then I did say blacking out, not just beign drunk.

If you're blacked out should the law deem you free of responsibility for what happens next? Yes or no. One word asnwer.

That's not even a word, and it's still the high point of that post.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

You cannot apply a blanket statement like that, at all. But yes, she would be entirely guilty of anything she did while drunk.

But the problem is, she was unconcious and completely unable to say "no" or stop them at all.

I agree.

So either you just randomly posted in this topic or else you're trying to make out that her being unconcious was her own fault.

Being unconconscious was her own fault. What happened afterwards wasn't. I'm arguing responsibilty here - I've used the word often enough - not fault.

Killer Wench

Killer Wench wrote: »

She may have been raped. This is a plea agreement between the prosecutor and the defendants. It is a negotiation. Sometimes guilty people can negotiate for a lesser charge, and other times non-guilty people agree to charges because they have the impression it would be a better deal than going to trial and facing the maximum.

But we don't know if she was.. They posted the pictures for everyone to see which tells me it was likely stupid drunken behaviour.

childsplay wrote: »

What's stupid about that? Nobody has a right to put their hands on another person without permission. That's what made me so mad earlier. This idea that it's okay to touch another person sexually and that's okay. IT'S SO NOT OKAY. That and the fact that men SEEM to be excused for this type of behaviour while girls are labelled with not so nice names forever afterwards.

I said it sounds like they were stupid. You'd rather call them rapists while we know nothing.. If the judge put a gagging order on it and didn't put them on the sex offenders list, I'm gonna assume it was wasn't rape.

And wtf. Men are never ever excused. One allegation and their life's over.

RumDrinker

malachyscott wrote: »

How strange is this ? The two guys put photos of her online after she passed out, she names them on twitter and is now in trouble !

Our society gets crazier and crazier before it collapses...

Tombi!

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I agree.



Being conconscious was her own fault. What happened afterwards wasn't. I'm arguing responsibilty here - I've used the word often enough - not fault.

It is her repsonsiblity. If she passed out while driving a car, her fault. She's responsible.

She's respsonsible for getting herself into the state she was in (passed out). But beyond that, the sexual assault she was in no way responsible for, whatsoever.

humbert

Deleted User wrote: »

They posted the pictures for everyone to see.

I may have missed it, but I don't think they did.

Killer Wench

Deleted User wrote: »

But we don't know if she was.. They posted the pictures for everyone to see which tells me it was likely stupid drunken behaviour.

I said it sounds like they were stupid. You'd rather call them rapists while we know nothing.. If the judge put a gagging order on it and didn't put them on the sex offenders list, I'm gonna assume it was wasn't rape.

And wtf. Men are never ever excused. One allegation and their life's over.

The judge has neither accepted or rejected the plea agreement. We cannot assume that it wasn't rape as this case is still pending. That is why this situation is problematic; she felt that she wasn't receiving justice because the plea agreement was for a lesser charge, but it had yet to be finalized.

Tombi!

Deleted User wrote: »

And wtf. Men are never ever excused. One allegation and their life's over.

I know a girl that got raped (brutally I might add) and the gardaí made a cock up of the evidence.

So the nice man that beat her up and raped her walked free, all while laughing about it with his friends.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

It is her repsonsiblity. If she passed out while driving a car, her fault. She's responsible.

She's respsonsible for getting herself into the state she was in (passed out). But beyond that, the sexual assault she was in no way responsible for, whatsoever.

Which is exactly what I've been arguing all along. People have been trying to make it look like I'm arguing fault, when I haven't, hence the impatience in one or two of my posts.

childsplay

The point here is that you are still responsible for your actions, even if your boozed up to the eyeballs. If you get in your car pissed as a coot and crash, on your head be it.

Actually yea, my mistake.

Tombi!

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Which is exactly what I've been arguing all along. People have been trying to make it look like I'm arguing fault, when I haven't, hence the impatience in one or two of my posts.

But what does her getting drunk and passing out have to do with anything?

Just because she's put herself in a vulnerable situation doesn't mean she is responsible for what comes after.

There's a difference between being an idiot (like trying to provoke a dog) and expecting people not to treat you like a piece of meat.

PrincessLola

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I know a girl that got raped (brutally I might add) and the gardaí made a cock up of the evidence.

So the nice man that beat her up and raped her walked free, all while laughing about it with his friends.

Honestly, false allegations of rape occur much less then people like to believe. Its not like the woman making the accusation doesn't get absolute sh*t for it.

Brutal Deluxe

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I know a girl that got raped (brutally I might add) and the gardaí made a cock up of the evidence.

So the nice man that beat her up and raped her walked free, all while laughing about it with his friends.

What an interesting and completely relevant story. Thanks for the valuable input on how society view men accused of rape.

Tombi!

Deleted User wrote: »

What an interesting and completely relevant story. Thanks for the valuable input on how society view men accused of rape.

Oh, sorry. I forgot that nobody he knew cared about the fact he did rape her.

Giselle

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In fairness, this was a reply to someone else, who more or less did accuse me of condoneing drunken rape.

No, I asked you what the consequences of being drunk and passed out are or should be, in your opinion.

I asked you if you were drunk and passed out, if you somehow lost the right to NOT be assaulted.

mauzo

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I know a girl that got raped (brutally I might add) and the gardaí made a cock up of the evidence.

So the nice man that beat her up and raped her walked free, all while laughing about it with his friends.

+1. I know a girl that was raped when she was younger, she was also told to stay silent, like in the OP. All because he had the mental age of an 8 year old. Makes me sick

Killer Wench

PrincessLola wrote: »

Honestly, false allegations of rape occur much less then people like to believe. Its not like the woman making the accusation doesn't get absolute sh*t for it.

Not sure about Ireland, but happens frequently enough that it adds to the burden a real victim faces.

And this woman made off like a bandit with her false accusation:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/27/brian-banks-exonerated_n_1548823.html

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PrincessLola wrote: »

Honestly, false allegations of rape occur much less then people like to believe. Its not like the woman making the accusation doesn't get absolute sh*t for it.

That can be other other side of the problem: what if a girl consents to sex, but doesn't remember? Or, worse, was raped but can't remember any details? The judge simply won't trust her accounts and the rapist walks free.

yawha

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You can be the victim and still be partly responsible.

No you can't. What the fuck?

If it's a warm day, and someone leaves all the doors and windows of their house open while they're at work so it stays cool, and their house gets robbed, they are not responsible in any way for that. The scumbag criminals who went into a house that was not theirs and took things from it are 100% responsible.

Sure, it could be considered naive of the house owner, but the mentality that "it was bound to happen", that the house owner bears some culpability at all is fucked. People who do bad things are responsible for doing those bad things. No one is responsible for bad things done to them by other people because they didn't take precautionary measures against these bad things happening to them.

childsplay

And wtf. Men are never ever excused. One allegation and their life's over.

I have heard men brag about their conquests far too often to believe that. Men shag all around them their studs. Women do it and their sluts. This is the male attitude that I have a problem with.

I hear what your saying about rape allegations. Women who falsely accuse men of rape are morally reprehensible.

Brutal Deluxe

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Oh, sorry. I forgot that nobody he knew cared about the fact he did rape her.

Ive never met a single person who would maintain a friendship with a rapist.. You're friend was raped by someone in the lowest levels of society with friends like that. So frankly, it's not very relevant. A normal man could lose everything on an accusation of sexual misconduct.

uriah

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The first two words. But then I did say blacking out, not just beign drunk.

If you're blacked out should the law deem you free of responsibility for what happens next? Yes or no. One word asnwer.

There is no 'one word' answer.

If one has blacked out from alcohol, one is responsible for what one does.
But one is not in any way responsible for any assault committed on by another person.

titan18

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

But what does her getting drunk and passing out have to do with anything?

Just because she's put herself in a vulnerable situation doesn't mean she is responsible for what comes after.

There's a difference between being an idiot (like trying to provoke a dog) and expecting people not to treat you like a piece of meat.

If she didn't get drunk and pass out, she might not have been assaulted. Cool, the guys shouldn't have done it, but she's responsible for putting herself into that situation. Not what comes after in this case of course.

Madam_X

Yeh it's unwise to get drunk to the point of blackout. But its worse IMO to take advantage of a person in that state - robbing their wallet even, let alone sexually assaulting them.

childsplay

childsplay wrote: »

And wtf. Men are never ever excused. One allegation and their life's over.

I have heard men brag about their conquests far too often to believe that. Men shag all around them their studs. Women do it and their sluts. This is the male attitude that I have a problem with.

I hear what your saying about rape allegations. Women who falsely accuse men of rape are morally reprehensible.

Whats with the sluts and stugs argument? Start a new thread.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

yawha wrote: »

No you can't. What the fuck?

If it's a warm day, and someone leaves all the doors and windows of their house open while they're at work so it stays cool, and their house gets robbed, they are not responsible in any way for that. The scumbag criminals who went into a house that was not theirs and took things from it are 100% responsible.

Sure, it could be considered naive of the house owner, but the mentality that "it was bound to happen", that the house owner bears some culpability at all is fucked. People who do bad things are responsible for doing those bad things. No one is responsible for bad things done to them by other people because they didn't take precautionary measures against these bad things happening to them.

Bit of a difference there in terms of conscious state...? But I would argue, yes, you have a responsibilty to protect youreslf and your possessions. But try and tell your insurance company about the theft and see what they say.

uriah wrote: »

There is no 'one word' answer.

If one has blacked out from alcohol, one is responsible for what one does.

Again, the point I was makign all along, but people chose not to read the psts, so what can I do?

Tombi!

titan18 wrote: »

If she didn't get drunk and pass out, she might not have been assaulted. Cool, the guys shouldn't have done it, but she's responsible for putting herself into that situation. Not what comes after in this case of course.

Oh of course. But my point is even though she shouldn't have blacked out, she wasn't responsible for what happens next. But the guys are still 100% responsible.

Killer Wench

What if she didn't drink alcohol but had a fruit juice that had been spiked with a rape drug? What if she had thought she was drinking a simple cocktail, but it had been spiked? What if she had a few drinks with no intention of getting black-out drunk?

Tombi!

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Again, the point I was makign all along, but people chose not to read the psts, so what can I do?

So basically you admit she isn't responsible for being assaulted?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

So basically you admit she isn't responsible for being assaulted?

I don't believe I ever did. Which point are you referring to?

yawha

yawha wrote: »

No you can't. What the fuck?

If it's a warm day, and someone leaves all the doors and windows of their house open while they're at work so it stays cool, and their house gets robbed, they are not responsible in any way for that. The scumbag criminals who went into a house that was not theirs and took things from it are 100% responsible.

Sure, it could be considered naive of the house owner, but the mentality that "it was bound to happen", that the house owner bears some culpability at all is fucked. People who do bad things are responsible for doing those bad things. No one is responsible for bad things done to them by other people because they didn't take precautionary measures against these bad things happening to them.

I'd love to see you react to a housemate doing this and you losing your laptop and money.. Would ya not be a bit pissed of at him? Or would ya just say, not your fault.

Tombi!

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Did I ever? Which post?

I misunderstood.

Perhaps you can give me a simple "yes" or a simple "no" to this question:
Is the girl in anyway responsible for the assault that took place after she became unconcious?

Now remember, we agree she's responsible for getting drunk and passing out, but the question is what the guys did afterwards.

titan18

Killer Wench wrote: »

What if she didn't drink alcohol but had a fruit juice that had been spiked with a rape drug? What if she had thought she was drinking a simple cocktail, but it had been spiked? What if she had a few drinks with no intention of getting black-out drunk?

She was 16 so probably didnt know her limits. Considering it hasn't said she was spiked, I'd imagine she wasn't. She seems to want to case public, so I reckon she'd have said something like that if she had been.

childsplay

Deleted User wrote: »

Whats with the sluts and stugs argument? Start a new thread.

The argument was that if a man's life is over if he gets known as being sexually aggressive. My point was that men get praised for being wildly sexually active while a girl will be labelled a slut. Now, if that is the accepted view in society, girls are seen as pieces of meat and suddenly this type of behaviour could be viewed as acceptable. In fact I think that might already be the case. I don't think the argument needs a new thread.

yawha

titan18 wrote: »

If she didn't get drunk and pass out, she might not have been assaulted. Cool, the guys shouldn't have done it, but she's responsible for putting herself into that situation.

What is your point?

What does "responsible for putting herself in that situation" mean?

Do you mean that the guys are slightly less responsible for raping her?

Do you mean that factors like this should be taken into consideration when sentencing in court?

Do you mean that she should feel bad about getting too drunk that night on top of how awful she already feels?

Do you mean that in general, people shouldn't get too drunk, and should be harshly looked down on if they do, even by mistake?

What if both people are steaming drunk and neither person remembers or knows if it was consensual.. Which person can be accused of rape?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I misunderstood.

Perhaps you can give me a simple "yes" or a simple "no" to this question:
Is the girl in anyway responsible for the assault that took place after she became unconcious?

Now remember, we agree she's responsible for getting drunk and passing out, but the question is what the guys did afterwards.

No! I never said she was! The second statement is what I argued! It was sydneyfife and princesszola and i think one or two others who tried to make it look like I was arguing it because they couldn't/wouldn't read my posts properly and they got you confused.

Killer Wench

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd love to see you react to a housemate doing this and you losing your laptop and money.. Would ya not be a bit pissed of at him? Or would ya just say, not your fault.

Let's not forget that there is the criminal justice system and the civil justice system. The state has an interest in pursuing justice against the criminals that invaded your property; in the civil system, you could seek remedy from your roommate for his negligent behavior.

Wompa1

Here's me speculating but from what I read about this. What constitutes the assault? And can it be considered assault if they took pictures of her privates when she was slouched over drunk?

Is it possible they took the pictures and sent them around and there was no form of anything forced? It's still wrong but her throwing around the R word is also wrong if they weren't convicted of that. She broke the law too.

Tombi!

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

No! I never said she was! The second statement is what I argued!

So why are you trying to make it sound from the beginning like you felt she was responsible for what the guys did to her after she passed out?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

So why are you trying to make it sound from the beginning like you felt she was responsible for what the guys did to her after she passed out?

Which post?

Killer Wench

Killer Wench wrote: »

Let's not forget that there is the criminal justice system and the civil justice system. The state has an interest in pursuing justice against the criminals that invaded your property; in the civil system, you could seek remedy from your roommate for his negligent behavior.

I thought you had just resolved him of all responsibility.

titan18

yawha wrote: »

What is your point?

What does "responsible for putting herself in that situation" mean?

Do you mean that the guys are slightly less responsible for raping her?

Do you mean that factors like this should be taken into consideration when sentencing in court?

Do you mean that she should feel bad about getting too drunk that night on top of how awful she already feels?

Do you mean that in general, people shouldn't get too drunk, and should be harshly looked down on if they do, even by mistake?

No to all of those. Although the last one, people should be aware of there limits and not get passed out drunk. It's happened to her, and the guys should still be punished like in any other situation. She should be more aware the next time she's drinking and take a bit more care with how much she drinks.

Responsible for putting herself in that situation means that if she hadn't passed out from drinking, the chances of her being assaulted are lessened. Still might happen of course. If I walk down a dark alley walking home from a night out and get robbed, whilst the robber is responsible for it, I'm also responsible as I was stupid and didn't take into consideration the surroundings. If I get robbed in broad daylight in a busy street, I'm less responsible.

Tombi!

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Where?

In your first post, not only do you manage to make the argument of "it wasn't really rape" and then go to "she might not have been assault" (despite the fact the guys DID plead guilty) and then finally to making her case out to be a few harmless drunken photos and summed with a nice manner of say "don't drink and you won't have this happen".

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

No source links, so have to ask the obvious question...

... was she actually raped? Or sexuallly assaulted?

Did she even make these claims?

I mean, there appears to have been no rape trial. The focus of the issue seems to be on them taking pictures and that's it. And there's an obviouls solution to not having embarrasing pictures of you taken when your passed out at parties....