Should Kevin O'Higgins be honoured by this state?

Einhard

No

thecommietommy wrote: »

Fine, I can see how you might interpret the circunstances that led up to the Free State firing on the IRA in the Four Courts, doesn't change the fact that the Free State fired the first shots.

If Britain sent a large detatchment of troops into Ireland tomorrow, and the irish army fired shots at them, would you claim that the Irish started the subsequent conflict? I think not.

Your correct, the pro Treaty side won the election, doesn't change the fact
that the majority of the IRA and Cumman na mBan were against the
treaty.

So what? A large majority of slave owners and traders were against the British abolition of slavery in 1807. A large majority of the Real IRA are against the Good Friday Agreement. A large minority of the people were against entry to the EEC. In a democratic society, the tail does not wag the dog, much as certain elements of Republicanish would wish it so.

thecommietommy

Einhard wrote: »

If Britain sent a large detatchment of troops into Ireland tomorrow, and the irish army fired shots at them, would you claim that the Irish started the subsequent conflict? I think not.

Ah, I'd call the Irish terrorists as resisting the British forces of occupation is terrorism right ?

So what? A large majority of slave owners and traders were against the British abolition of slavery in 1807. A large majority of the Real IRA are against the Good Friday Agreement. A large minority of the people were against entry to the EEC. In a democratic society, the tail does not wag the dog, much as certain elements of Republicanish would wish it so.

Unfortunately the tail does very much wag the dog in Ireland as can be seen in the willingness to do Britian's bidding at the drop of a hat. This state evovled a quisling class who would sacrifice their children in order to get a benevolent nod of approval from the Brits or unionists, panicking in case they didn't do so in a gratefully servile manner.


( and let's not get into paying out for the debts of foreign banking specuators :rolleyes: )

Einhard

No

thecommietommy wrote: »

Unfortunately the tail does very much wag the dog in Ireland as can be seen in the willingness to do Britian's bidding at the drop of a hat. This state evovled a quisling class who would sacrifice their children in order to get a benevolent nod of approval from the Brits or unionists, panicking in case they didn't do so in a gratefully servile manner.


( and let's not get into paying out for the debts of foreign banking specuators :rolleyes: )

Well ok, you've gone about 3 miles off topic there. My point is that it doesn't matter what the IRA or Cumann na mBan thought of the Treaty. It has as much relevance as me stating that the West Castlebar Fisherman for Sustainable Angling were for or against the it. What matters, in a democracy, is gaining a mandate, and neither the IRA nor Cumann na mBan, nor any other anti-Treaty organisation managed to gain a mandate for their agenda. If an organisation claims to subscribe to democratic principles, then it behooves that organisation to respect the democratic will, and in refusing to do so, the IRA at that time showed themselves to democratic in name only. Furthermore, anyone who claims that the IRA were correct in opposing the democratic will through force of arms needs to check their democratic credentials, because that sort of ideology is little short of fascistic.

Luca Brasi

I see that the memorial to Kevin O Higgins on Booterstown Avenue has been smeared with red paint. It was only a matter of time. The executions left very bitter memories

Farmer Pudsey

No

Luca Brasi wrote: »

I see that the memorial to Kevin O Higgins on Booterstown Avenue has been smeared with red paint. It was only a matter of time. The executions left very bitter memories

We are nearly ninty years from the events people who claim that the executions left bitter memories should read a selection of history books not one sided trash. People also forget about the atrocities carried out by the irregulars in the civil war, such as the murder of Sean Mcgarry's son, the murder of Kevin O'Higgans father, the murder of W T Cosgrave uncle. These also left bitter memories however all some so called republicans want to remember is the bitter memories that suit their agenda.

RGM

Luca Brasi wrote: »

I see that the memorial to Kevin O Higgins on Booterstown Avenue has been smeared with red paint. It was only a matter of time. The executions left very bitter memories

I'm not saying I'm for the thing, but I'd be surprised if the person who smeared the paint has any memories prior to 1990.

goose2005

I don't see how it amounts to "honouring" him, the inscription is plain and factual

Little_Korean

Fenian Army wrote: »

Unarmed police force is hardly that impressive when you look at the reasons why:
1). The incompetence of members (I think a recruit was killed or injured early on)
2). Having ex ric members who joined the garda armed caused much unease for the public but also the ex IRA men in the force.

thus he didn't really have a choice.

Plus the last time there was an armed police force, many of the Civic Guards defected to the Anti-Treatyites - having been infiltrated by Rory O'Connors' men before - and taking their weapons with them. Nobody wanted a repeat of that.

Still an impressive achievement to have an unarmed police force immediately following a civil war, all the same.

Farmer Pudsey

No

thecommietommy wrote: »

Not making a political point but just stating some facts, the Free Sate army kicked things off first by attacking the IRA in the Four Courts with British supplied artillery etc. Ernie O'Malley's the Singing Flame is an excellent account of it. And a large majority of the IRA including Cumm na mBan were against the treaty.

Recenty I came accross a website which listed the dead of the War of Independance and the Civil war. Hostilities were more or less in Progress since mid April and in early May the Anti-Treatietes ambushed National Army soldiers in Donegal kilian four of them.
http://irishmedals.org/gpage44.html

Quickelles

Seems that just as O'Higgins did when murdering 77 fellow Irishmen someone has now taken the law into their own hands (again) and destroyed the plaque.

While one would never encourage illegal actions I will just record that when I read the news I experienced a certain pleasure!

slackerdude

No

Of course Kevin O'Higgins should be honoured with a plaque. At the time of his death he was Minister for Justice, Minister for External Affairs and Vice President of the Executive Council. In his various ministerial posts, he contributed greatly to the development of the Irish Free State. If you want to criticise O'Higgins for civil war executions then I'm afraid you have to include all members of the cabinet. The reprisal executions of December 1922 for which he is constantly vilified was not solely his doing. He arrived late at the cabinet meeting that had already made the decision and merely needed his agreement to rubberstamp the executions. O'Higgins was left with the choice of either rejecting the decision and losing his job or accepting the decision and losing his best man. Anyone who thinks that this decision was taken lightly should read the Dail record where he broke down under questioning about these executions. It's all very well giving out in 2014 about what happened in 1922 but what these men were trying to do was to stabilise a new state which was being attacked by people who wanted to continue to fight a war with the forces of the crown. Mention is made of the majority bearing down on the minority in the civil war. De Valera famously said at the time that the majority had no right to do wrong. O'Higgins has been condemned for being anti-democratic and yet many of his speeches are about creating a situation where the will of the people is respected. This was certainly not the case until the gun law of the irregulars was effectively ended by the iron fist of the state.

Jolly Red Giant

O'Higgins was a vicious reactionary that was largely responsible for the Free State being one of the most repressive 'democratic' regimes in the 1920s. He established a vicious quasi-fascist police force to break strikes and used the state machinery to cut jobs, drive down wages and engage in vicious austerity against the working class and rural poor.

slackerdude

No

Kevin O'Higgins was Minister for Justice and External Affairs. He was not Minister for Industry and Commerce. Where on earth did you read that he also found time to "use the state machinery to cut jobs, drive down wages and engage in vicious austerity against the working class and rural poor"? It certainly wasn't in any history book on the period that I have come across. The guards were far from a fascist police force although the first Garda Commissioner did later found the Blueshirts but that was in the 1930s. Also, O'Higgins was far from being cosy with O'Duffy at the time of his death.

slackerdude

No

There seem to be quite a few idiotic posts laying the blame for the executions solely at O'Higgins' door. May I remind people that then as well as now no minister acts alone. The principle of collective cabinet responsibility applies. It's ok to disagree with the executions policy during the civil war as long as one recognises that it was state policy and not the result of an individual acting alone. True enough O'Higgins was a strong defender of the executions when he was heckled about it at election meetings, saying "And 777 more if necessary". Indeed Cosgrave said at the time that the state was worth more than the lives of thousands of republicans. The point they were both making was that in order to safeguard the state, executions are sometimes necessary in an emergency situation such as a civil war.

Jolly Red Giant

slackerdude wrote: »

Kevin O'Higgins was Minister for Justice and External Affairs. He was not Minister for Industry and Commerce. Where on earth did you read that he also found time to "use the state machinery to cut jobs, drive down wages and engage in vicious austerity against the working class and rural poor"? It certainly wasn't in any history book on the period that I have come across. The guards were far from a fascist police force although the first Garda Commissioner did later found the Blueshirts but that was in the 1930s. Also, O'Higgins was far from being cosy with O'Duffy at the time of his death.

O'Higgins was Minister For Home Affiers in 1922 and directly responsible for setting up the Special Infaantry Corps. - a quasi-fascist force of several thousand troops - specifically brought into existence to viciously break strikes by thousands of farm labourers in Cork, Waterford and Kildare and to drive striking workers out of workplace occupations during the Munster Soviets.

O'Higgins was deputy head of a government that slashed public expenditure and cut taxes for the rich in a vicious austerity programme in the early years of the state and was one of the prime movers to use the building of the Ardnacrusha power station as a vehicle to slash jobs and wages across the entire economy in order to boost the profits of the bosses. The building of the power station was a particularly brutal development with the establishment of a state sanctioned fascist security force on the site that terrorised the 5000 strong workforce, preventing Union organisation, forcing workers to spend their wages in company shops and canteens and driving hundreds of families into living in pig sties and hay barns in the surrounding area.

This is not the stuff you will read about in the typical narrative of this period - but this is the real and hidden story of a backward, reactionary and repressive regime that was established after independence.

Farmer Pudsey

No

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

O'Higgins was Minister For Home Affiers in 1922 and directly responsible for setting up the Special Infaantry Corps. - a quasi-fascist force of several thousand troops - specifically brought into existence to viciously break strikes by thousands of farm labourers in Cork, Waterford and Kildare and to drive striking workers out of workplace occupations during the Munster Soviets.

O'Higgins was deputy head of a government that slashed public expenditure and cut taxes for the rich in a vicious austerity programme in the early years of the state and was one of the prime movers to use the building of the Ardnacrusha power station as a vehicle to slash jobs and wages across the entire economy in order to boost the profits of the bosses. The building of the power station was a particularly brutal development with the establishment of a state sanctioned fascist security force on the site that terrorised the 5000 strong workforce, preventing Union organisation, forcing workers to spend their wages in company shops and canteens and driving hundreds of families into living in pig sties and hay barns in the surrounding area.

This is not the stuff you will read about in the typical narrative of this period - but this is the real and hidden story of a backward, reactionary and repressive regime that was established after independence.

You forgot the bit about him being red in colour, having two horns and a tail.


Grow Up and stop just reading just so called republican literature

slackerdude

No

The reason for the harsh budgets of the twenties was down to the cost of the civil war and the refusal to go cap in hand to the British. I take your point about the Special Infantry Corps but was this not under the control and direction of the Minister for Defence. Ardnacrusha was looked after by Patrick McGilligan, Minister for Industry and Commerce and by Joe McGrath, his ministerial predecessor who became Director of Labour at Siemens in 1924. The 1920s may not have been a good decade for the working man in Ireland but certain key achievements mark the decade in office of the first government. The Irish state maintained stability throughout the twenties while other countries lapsed into dictatorships. Significant developments took place in foreign affairs with the new state quickly gaining official recognition. A new book focused on Ireland in the 1920s is due to appear next year.

Jolly Red Giant

slackerdude wrote: »

The reason for the harsh budgets of the twenties was down to the cost of the civil war and the refusal to go cap in hand to the British. I take your point about the Special Infantry Corps but was this not under the control and direction of the Minister for Defence. Ardnacrusha was looked after by Patrick McGilligan, Minister for Industry and Commerce and by Joe McGrath, his ministerial predecessor who became Director of Labour at Siemens in 1924. The 1920s may not have been a good decade for the working man in Ireland but certain key achievements mark the decade in office of the first government. The Irish state maintained stability throughout the twenties while other countries lapsed into dictatorships. Significant developments took place in foreign affairs with the new state quickly gaining official recognition. A new book focused on Ireland in the 1920s is due to appear next year.

O'Higgins was directly responsible for the SIC as it was under police control.

In relation to Ardnacrusha, O'Higgins made the running in whipping up anti-worker sentiment and attacking striking workers claiming they were engaged in a secret conspiracy to wreck the new state. In a Dail debate in 1926 O'Higgins specifically states that he is responsible for deploying 50 special police to Ardnacrusha for use against striking workers. In a debate in 1925 he states that he actively supported the cutting of wages for workers at Ardnacrusha by over 30% from the normal rates of pay in Limerick.

I could go on but I don't have the time now and would have to fish out my research notes. O'Higgins was not alone in attacking the strike of workers in Limerick at 30% wage cuts on the Shannon Scheme, a cut 'recommended' to Seimens, but was one of the main protagonists and actively used the police under his control to attempt to break the strike.

And the reason for austerity then is the same now - forcing the working class to pay for a crisis not of their making while protecting the rich elites in the country and giving them tax cuts.

slackerdude

No

Just wondering if there is any example of a properly functioning democracy in the 1920s. Your points about Kevin O'Higgins and Ardnacrusha are noted. But again the point must be made that the rest of the government supported the hard approach taken to breaking any strike out there. The project was too important to fail. Also, is there not a sense that you are judging 1920s by 2014 standards. I think legitimate criticism is fair but if it only amounts to a government bashing exercise no matter who is in power then what's the point. Harsh working conditions were worldwide. Show me any European country where workers were treated fairly during those years. Workplace Safety was an unknown concept in the 1920s. The Russian revolution did not work out so well in bringing in a socialist framework. Also, the repressive measures are probably explained because of a fear of a socialist uprising in Ireland. The level of unrest during the 1916-1923 benefitted nobody and the hard job of bedding down the infant state after years of gun law was taken up by O'Higgins with the support of the government.

Jolly Red Giant

slackerdude wrote: »

Just wondering if there is any example of a properly functioning democracy in the 1920s. Your points about Kevin O'Higgins and Ardnacrusha are noted. But again the point must be made that the rest of the government supported the hard approach taken to breaking any strike out there. The project was too important to fail. Also, is there not a sense that you are judging 1920s by 2014 standards. I think legitimate criticism is fair but if it only amounts to a government bashing exercise no matter who is in power then what's the point. Harsh working conditions were worldwide. Show me any European country where workers were treated fairly during those years. Workplace Safety was an unknown concept in the 1920s. The Russian revolution did not work out so well in bringing in a socialist framework. Also, the repressive measures are probably explained because of a fear of a socialist uprising in Ireland. The level of unrest during the 1916-1923 benefitted nobody and the hard job of bedding down the infant state after years of gun law was taken up by O'Higgins with the support of the government.

You actually hit the nail on the head when you talk about the fear of the socialist uprising. You are correct that few countries had a functioning capitalist democracy (indeed on a global basis even today capitalist democracy is still a rarity) but that is not the issue. The 'project was too important to fail' raises the question of what project? The project at hand for O'Higgins was the protection of the capitalist system in the interests of the ruling elites, the large farmers, the bosses and the reactionary Catholic hierarchy (who were the largest landowners in the state). And to preserve this power O'Higgins was wiling to use all the arms of the state in vicious repression against working class people and subsequently use the state apparatus to drive down wages, slash jobs and boost profits for the elites. Nothing new in this - except that O'Higgins was far more nakedly vicious in his use of state repression.

Waitsian

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You forgot the bit about him being red in colour, having two horns and a tail.

Grow Up and stop just reading just so called republican literature

Sarcasm and personal attacks aren't worthy of this forum. If you wish to refute his points, do so.

Farmer Pudsey

No

mod9maple wrote: »

Sarcasm and personal attacks aren't worthy of this forum. If you wish to refute his points, do so.

If you read all the thread you will see that I have refuted point like JRG has posted.

Jesus.

No

Pudsey do you think a member of the Royal family should be invited to the 2016 celebrations?

Jolly Red Giant

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you read all the thread you will see that I have refuted point like JRG has posted.

Pudsey thinks all I do is read 'republican' literature - shows how little attention you were actually paying if you think that is what I do.

Farmer Pudsey

No

Jesus. wrote: »

Pudsey do you think a member of the Royal family should be invited to the 2016 celebrations?

I would see no issue with it.

DarkyHughes

NO. I'm glad the IRA got him for executing 77 Republicans for British imperial interests , pitty they didn't get W.T while they were at it.