Is moving to London or the UK really emigrating?

getz

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Has he not been talking to himself already for years? I didnt know we were supposed to treat him as someone actually interacting with the rest of us.:)

is not that what cork people do ?

Dangerous Man

NinjaK wrote: »

Dublin is practically the same as any major UK city, im sure any Dub west Brit wouldn't notice a difference

Wherever you come from is a shithole.

ConstantJoe

Bit of a stupid question? Of course it's emigrating!

Cú Giobach

LordSutch wrote: »

But the OP asks is moving to London or the UK really emigrating? of course parts of England are totally foreign to Cork or Dublin, and parts of Scotland are totally alien to the South of England for example (A Londoner moving up North or to Scotland might also comment on the slower pace of life), but that still doesnt alter my own personal point that "the UK" in all it varied regions can be very similar to Ireland, as would be expected with the two islands being so close and so intertwined.

Naturally we have a lot in common, both being islands next door to each other and on the edge of but "emotionally separate" from Europe.
Today we have more in common than ever but (and it's a biggie) until very recently living in Ireland and living in the UK were very different things, I'm sure nobody would disagree with me if I said life in Ireland in say 1960 was a totally different experience than life in any part of Britain and quite alien to British people, and though we have a shared history the experiences of that history were utterly different depending on whether you lived in Britain or Ireland.
Now people are the "result" of and (whether we like it or not) influenced by their history and Irish people today either lived in, or were brought up by parents who lived in, this very different country and since all humans are influenced by, and the product of the previous generation there is a difference between the people of this island compared to the one next door that goes further than just rural/urban differences.

I found when I moved to London after leaving school in the 80's that #1 over there is a totally different culture #2 the people were familiar but foreign #3 for a while after first moving there meeting and talking to other Irish people in say Kilburn was a "breath of fresh air" and a comforting feeling in an alien environment.

Distance I feel has no relevance in whether moving is emigration or not, for example I'm sure again nobody would disagree that a French person moving from Calais to Dover is actually emigrating to England or someone walking 5 miles up the road and moving from Hungary to Austria is emigrating.

Conclusion: Yes moving from Ireland to Britain is emigrating.

PS: I love Cork too . . .

Nice one

jmayo

dd972 wrote: »

I know I'll get a few West Brit jibes for this one, but my point here is if you move from Ireland to the UK you may be moving to a different state or jurisdiction but in my opinion I don't really believe it's full on ''emigration'', like it would be going to Canada, the US in terms of distance or mainland Europe where you'd have to learn another language.

Do you feel like your in a foreign country when you step off at Holyhead or Heathrow ], I for one, don't.

Fecking hell we now have degrees of emigration. :rolleyes:

Are you now living in a country with a different tax authority ?
Are you now living in a country with a different legal system and head of state to Ireland ?

And here is the easy test for people who can't figure out the above.

Can you go into a normal shop and buy a packet of Tayto cheese & onion and a Red lemonade ?

If you can't => you have bloody emigrated to a FOREIGN COUNTRY.

Now away with you.

getz

before 1920 was it emigrating ?

Tox56

getz wrote: »

before 1920 was it emigrating ?

In the same way going to Australia before 1901 wasn't emigrating?

Cú Giobach

Tox56 wrote: »

In the same way going to Australia before 1901 wasn't emigrating?

Or moving from Riga to Tashkent in 1970.

getz

Tox56 wrote: »

In the same way going to Australia before 1901 wasn't emigrating?

that was because you were going to a colony,before 1920 it was just about moving between countries within the union.

Reekwind

getz wrote: »

that was because you were going to a colony,before 1920 it was just about moving between countries within the union.

Note the word "countries". Moving countries within a transnational empire is till emigrating. Particularly when it involves moving to the other side of the world

hardCopy

It depends?

If you properly settle and can't come home regularly or choose not to then yes it's emigrating.

I worked over there for about 7 months, due to the nature of the work I stayed in three different cities so I never got an apartment and just came home every Thursday or Friday. I never considered it emigration.

This seemed to be a popular option as I'd see a lot of the same people in the airport every Monday morning.

NinjaK

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Wherever you come from is a shithole.

What is wrong with you?

Where To

According to some of the people here I have emigrated 5 times in the last 24 hours alone.:pac:

Procrastastudy

NinjaK wrote: »

Dublin is practically the same as any major UK city, im sure any Dub west Brit wouldn't notice a difference

Completely disagree here. Irish customs, although only subtly, are different from the UK. If you go from Oxford to somewhere like Liverpool you'd notice a difference but enough remains the same.

You go from Liverpool do Dublin it's defo a foreign land!

The way you nutters drive for a start

A Dub in Glasgo

hardCopy wrote: »

I never considered it emigration.

That is beacuse you were commuting from your home and then lodging when away

dd972

Thanks for your replies, both in favour and against, still of the opinion though that an Irishman in England is no more foreign than a Scot or Welshman, despite them coming from within the UK borders.

Procrastastudy

dd972 wrote: »

Thanks for your replies, both in favour and against, still of the opinion though that an Irishman in England is no more foreign than a Scot or Welshman, despite them coming from within the UK borders.

De Valera spinning in his grave yet?

Cú Giobach

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

De Valera spinning in his grave yet?

Dev has drilled his way to New Zealand and back numerous times since Boards started.

Reekwind

dd972 wrote: »

Thanks for your replies, both in favour and against, still of the opinion though that an Irishman in England is no more foreign than a Scot or Welshman, despite them coming from within the UK borders.

I suggest you try it yourself and then tell us how easy it is

efb

Is moving to Belfast for work emigrating?

Can...Worms...

Cú Giobach

dd972 wrote: »

Thanks for your replies, both in favour and against, still of the opinion though that an Irishman in England is no more foreign than a Scot or Welshman, despite them coming from within the UK borders.

Many Welsh and Scots would agree with you, but not for the reason you might be thinking.

who the fug

efb wrote: »

Is moving to Belfast for work emigrating?

Can...Worms...

No thats time travel, to the past

pablomakaveli

This ranks up there with some of the dumbest questions asked on AH.

Yes moving to the UK is emigration. Sure it may be culturally similiar to ireland but doesnt change the fact that it still is a foreign country your moving to. Whilst i've settled in ok here im always aware of the fact that im in a different country so it definitely feels like i've emigrated.

Duck Soup

Today, it's just a minor hop across the pond. Still technically emigrating, but then since a sizable chunk of Irish people in the UK drink in Irish pubs, go to Irish clubs and socialize predominantly with other Irish people, the culture shock is minimal. In my dad's day (he's still around, in his 80s now), it was a bigger deal. You might phone home once a week from a phone box or send letters, but that'd be the full extent of communications back home.

What got worse - and even my dad saw this in the 60s and 70s - was that single Irish men, usually labourers, would go over there and find themselves living in a B&B and earning just enough to get by. It could be very lonely to be so separated from your family and friends, so they got into a habit of spending the money they did earn in the local (Irish) pub. This in turn lead to high rates of alcoholism, then homelessness amongst single working-class Irishmen in the UK - particularly in London. In the late 60s/early 70s, my dad used to work with his local parish in Hammersmith, going out on soup-and-sandwich runs for the homeless, the majority of whom in West London were Irish.

In theory, it should have been the price of a phone call to have someone get them on the train and then ferry back to Ireland, but many of them were too ashamed of what had become of them. So they lived on the streets, when they could have been on their way home. In more recent years, it's more the educated and professional Irish people that make their way over there (a mate of mine over there tells me that the Irish have all but gone from many building sites). I think they're less clannish and more inclined to mix with the natives. It's nowhere near such a big deal these days to emigrate over.

LordSutch

pablomakaveli wrote: »

This ranks up there with some of the dumbest questions asked on AH.

Yes moving to the UK is emigration. Sure it may be culturally similiar to ireland but doesnt change the fact that it still is a foreign country your moving to. Whilst i've settled in ok here im always aware of the fact that im in a different country so it definitely feels like i've emigrated.

What part/region of the UK have you moved to? Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, London, Manchester, Durham, Devon, Cornwall?
My point being that there are massive regional variations to be considered, with some parts of the UK being very close/similar to parts of the ROI.

Seanchai

LordSutch wrote: »

What part/region of the UK have you moved to? Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, London, Manchester, Durham, Devon, Cornwall?
My point being that there are massive regional variations to be considered.

Political point of post taken. Predictable as ever, LordSutch.

LordSutch

Seanchai wrote: »

Political point of post taken. Predictable as ever, LordSutch.

But its true Seanchai, some people just talk about the UK when they actually mean England, its a constant misnomer, and I am just pointing out that the UK really is much closer to home than some people think.

Lets not start that incessant arguing again, please Seanchai .

Seanchai

LordSutch wrote: »

But its true Seanchai, some people just talk about the UK when they actually mean England, its a constant misnomer, and I am just pointing outthat the UK really is much closer to home than some people think.

The UK is just the name of the extended British state when its claim over Ireland is being made. The British state is the name of the extended English state when it's covering all of Britain. So, yes, leaving aside the sensitivities of "British" nationalists, the UK is essentially England and the lands England conquered immediately to its north and west. Dress it up as your nationalism dictates but the "UK" is England extended.

/end of.

Procrastastudy

Eh? UK is the UK and England is England there are very good reasons not to include Scotland as part of England or mean England when using the term UK.

The different legal systems being but one.

LordSutch

Seanchai wrote: »

The UK is just the name of the extended British state when its claim over Ireland is being made. The British state is the name of the extended English state when it's covering all of Britain. So, yes, leaving aside the sensitivities of "British" nationalists, the UK is essentially England and the lands England conquered immediately to its north and west. Dress it up as your nationalism dictates but the "UK" is England extended.

/end of.

So are you saying that the UK is just England? or are you saying that the other three countries/regions are also included in your estimation?

I don't want to argue with you, I just think the term "UK" is often abused & confused.

A Dub in Glasgo

The term 'UK' is often abused & confused in the UK :pac:

questionmark?

I've moved to Bristol. I have never visited a place in Ireland like it. I have emigrated simple as. It is not Ireland simple as. It is a foreign land with its own distinct accent, slang(Bristolion language from times gone past), and culture. It does not feel like home but by feck I'm enjoying it.

getz

Seanchai wrote: »

The UK is just the name of the extended British state when its claim over Ireland is being made. The British state is the name of the extended English state when it's covering all of Britain. So, yes, leaving aside the sensitivities of "British" nationalists, the UK is essentially England and the lands England conquered immediately to its north and west. Dress it up as your nationalism dictates but the "UK" is England extended.

/end of.

absolute,republican crap,even any 10 year old kid knows better

Eve_Dublin

I've lived in Scotland, midlands England and London and never felt "home", not even in Scotland with our supposed Celtic brethren. Many, many things are similar but they're foreign at the same time. Hard to explain if you haven't done it yourself.

books4sale

^^^^Look! I lived in Dublin for a few years, i'm from the west and that didn't feel like home either so what's your point?

Heading to England. Its not emigration, its not even close to emigration.

getz

books4sale wrote: »

^^^^Look! I lived in Dublin for a few years, i'm from the west and that didn't feel like home either so what's your point?

Heading to England. Its not emigration, its not even close to emigration.

is moving across the border called emigrating,i know going from northern ireland to england is not.

Eve_Dublin

books4sale wrote: »

^^^^Look! I lived in Dublin for a few years, i'm from the west and that didn't feel like home either so what's your point?

Heading to England. Its not emigration, its not even close to emigration.

Not even close to emigration? Do you understand what that word means?

em·i·grate
   
[em-i-greyt]
verb (used without object), em·i·grat·ed, em·i·grat·ing.
to leave one country or region to settle in another; migrate: to emigrate from Ireland to Australia.

In fact, techincally, your move from the West to Dublin was also emigration.


And my point about the UK not feeling like home. It didn't feel like IRELAND...Ireland being home. Not my parent's sitting room. As I said, so much was familiar yet it felt very different all the same. When I'm visiting the West, it still feels like Ireland. And please, don't come out with, "Shur Dublin is practically the UK bollocks"...it's not.

Anyway, it doesn't need to feel different for it to be emigration.


I always meet Spanish people here who tell me they emigrated here to Madrid from Barcelona or Asturias, for example. Looks like the Spanish have no trouble understanding what the word means compared to posters on this thread.

Sunnyisland

The relocation of people from one country to reside in another.Emigration affects the economies of the countries involved. When people leave a country, they lower the nation's labor force and consumer spending. On the other hand, the countries receiving the emigrants tends to benefit from more available workers, who also contribute to the economy by spending money.

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/emigration.asp#ixzz21u5x6Dsh


Some people here always like to keep/put this Independent country under the umbrella of the Uk.Maybe they have an Indentity crisis :-)

Eve_Dublin

realies wrote: »

The relocation of people from one country to reside in another.Emigration affects the economies of the countries involved. When people leave a country, they lower the nation's labor force and consumer spending. On the other hand, the countries receiving the emigrants tends to benefit from more available workers, who also contribute to the economy by spending money.

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/emigration.asp#ixzz21u5x6Dsh


Some people here always like to keep/put this Independent country under the umbrella of the Uk.

Another interesting thing about emigration: The country receiving the emigrants hasn't had to invest money in education, healthcare etc. for that person over the years either. Works out a very cheap deal in the end.

getz

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Another interesting thing about emigration: The country receiving the emigrants hasn't had to invest money in education, healthcare etc. for that person over the years either. Works out a very cheap deal in the end.

come on eve,most people who need to emigrate do so because of the lack of opportunities in their own country,they havent paid any money in tax welfare ect in the host country,ireland has a good education system so its true that those who go over to the uk have little problems getting work and are a asset to the UK ,but most of UK emigrants are from the third world and have little education,and are often a expensive burden on their new country,

Solair

within the European Union, it's basically migration rather than emigration.
We're supposedly one big happy dysfunctional family of states.

Migration within the EU is supported, you've rights to do it, health, welfare and educational supports etc etc. The idea is that labour is mobile within the group of states. So in theory, if one is having a disastrous few years people can go where the jobs are.

That's what happens in the US between states too.

The UK is our closest neighbour and the ties are even tighter than the EU with much more rights for people moving between the two states.

It's reallymigration. Emigration to me is more dramatic andpermanent.

Life's short, Ireland is tiny and Europe is vast and on our doorstep and it's open to us.

I see absolutely nothing strange about taking whatever opportunities it throws your way!

Reekwind

getz wrote: »

is moving across the border called emigrating,i know going from northern ireland to england is not.

Actually I'd disagree with that. N Ireland, whatever your political perspective, still still very recognisably Irish. The town layouts are the same, the brands are the same, the people are the same, etc. Having lived and worked in both NI and England, I found the former to be much more like home than the latter. To the point where, whatever about technicalities, I didn't feel like I'd emigrated

Eve_Dublin

getz wrote: »

come on eve,most people who need to emigrate do so because of the lack of opportunities in their own country,they havent paid any money in tax welfare ect in the host country,ireland has a good education system so its true that those who go over to the uk have little problems getting work and are a asset to the UK ,but most of UK emigrants are from the third world and have little education,and are often a expensive burden on their new country,

Okay but I had emigration within first world nations in mind. Should have said that.

Eve_Dublin

Reekwind wrote: »

Actually I'd disagree with that. N Ireland, whatever your political perspective, still still very recognisably Irish. The town layouts are the same, the brands are the same, the people are the same, etc. Having lived and worked in both NI and England, I found the former to be much more like home than the latter. To the point where, whatever about technicalities, I didn't feel like I'd emigrated

Are we sticking to the strict definition of emigration here or just our own interpretation of it?

Kind of a silly debate if everyone has their own definition of a word that's already been defined.

getz

Reekwind wrote: »

Actually I'd disagree with that. N Ireland, whatever your political perspective, still still very recognisably Irish. The town layouts are the same, the brands are the same, the people are the same, etc. Having lived and worked in both NI and England, I found the former to be much more like home than the latter. To the point where, whatever about technicalities, I didn't feel like I'd emigrated

funny enough when i am in ireland i find it very much like england,people are the same/language/pubs/fish and chips/same shops /street names and towns, mind you i live in the northwest of england

Reekwind

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Are we sticking to the strict definition of emigration here or just our own interpretation of it?

No, because I'm not a fan of "strict definitions". My definition is the only one that counts for me. If I move to another nation and it feels exactly the same as home then who is to say that I've emigrated? Technically I obviously have but that reveals the problem with "strict definitions"

For example, when I was working in NI I was less than two hour's drive from my family home and in place that's not at all different from where I'm from. There's not much of a difference between mid-Tyrone and north Louth, no more than between Galway and Louth. Whether borders and constitutions and politicians might say, N Ireland is still recognisably Irish

If the OP moved to London and found it absolutely no different to, say, Dublin then that's fine. My criticism of him has been that he hasn't done that and thus is in no position to comment. That and that the cultural differences between England and Ireland are generally large enough to be noticed by and affect almost everybody

So yeah, it's less legalism and more cultural differences that count

getz wrote:

funny enough when i am in ireland i find it very much like england,people are the same/language/pubs/fish and chips/same shops /street names and towns, mind you i live in the northwest of england

The north of England is obviously much more like Ireland than, say, the south east. Even then, as an emigrant, there are real differences, if sometimes subtle. For example, the way towns are laid out and the styles of architecture (in England, typically a surplus of brutalism and 70s brick) are quite different but not something that immediately jumps out

Solair

To be honest I find a move from Dublin to Cork as dramatic. Accents, architecture and landscapes are significantly different.

I found rural northern Ireland very familiar but, I felt more comfortable and at home in urban England, Wales or Scotland than either Belfast or Derry.
I just felt I needed to watch what I said up north and the whole Catholic v Protestant thing gets rather irritating rather quickly and it really doesn't crop up at all in Dublin or Cork as it's a total non issue.

English urban attitudes are far closer to those in the major urban areas of the Republic for a lot of things these days. Just found NI a bit conservative and quite a lot more religious. Also sectarianism still seems to be quite a big deal, despite all the progress. I'm not saying it's a huge deal, but it's just always there in the background like a bad odour from another era.

fasttalkerchat

Reekwind wrote: »

Actually I'd disagree with that. N Ireland, whatever your political perspective, still still very recognisably Irish. The town layouts are the same, the brands are the same, the people are the same, etc. Having lived and worked in both NI and England, I found the former to be much more like home than the latter. To the point where, whatever about technicalities, I didn't feel like I'd emigrated

Currency and phone networks are the only change you have to make.

n900guy

getz wrote: »

come on eve,most people who need to emigrate do so because of the lack of opportunities in their own country,they havent paid any money in tax welfare ect in the host country,ireland has a good education system so its true that those who go over to the uk have little problems getting work and are a asset to the UK ,but most of UK emigrants are from the third world and have little education,and are often a expensive burden on their new country,

Ireland has a barely adequate education system for blue-collar type labouring work. At advanced higher education in sciences, we do not have a good education system. We are not even part of CERN.

Procrastastudy

n900guy wrote: »

Ireland has a barely adequate education system for blue-collar type labouring work. At advanced higher education in sciences, we do not have a good education system. We are not even part of CERN.

I didn't have a brick laying class in school in England either.