So.. I have paid 100 euro for property tax

dvpower

Elfinknight wrote: »

Well, what would you call it?

Applying the law

Elfinknight

alastair wrote: »

That's not income tax.

The PRSI and USC are still taxes related to my income. To me that makes them income tax.

Elfinknight

AEDIC wrote: »

hmmmm....now I am not a car owner so might be on slightly dodgy ground here..... but arent there exemptions from paying the tax if you can prove your car is off the road?

Therefore....not a tax on the motor (as you still own it and therefore its irrelevant if it is on the road or not), but a tax on the fact that your 'motor' is using the road....in other words...a 'use of the road' tax?

That was the case last year. You could go to the Garda station and get them to sign that your car was of the road on an month by month basis.

Now though, you are charged E25 for each month you get them to sign it of.

Feathers

alastair wrote: »

Feathers wrote: »

I'm sure it's been brought up before, but if the government wanted to ensure payment, they should've just upped income tax.

Reduce the base tax credits of everyone by €100. Make an extra € 100 credit available to tenants on production of valid proof of tenancy. No big admin overhead (compared to what they're doing now) and no additional charge with bad PR attached.Tax credits get shuffled in the budget all the time.

Plus, they'd get a 'bonus' payment from anyone not bothered to claim the credit, inc those on dodgy tenancies.

They seem to really go out of their way to make things hard to implement at times.

The property tax has the advantage of not being restricted to the PAYE sector. There are lots of well-off householders outside the PAYE net who can afford to pay this tax, and that helps reduce the impact on employment an equivalent income tax hike would have.

Have never been self-employed, but I didn't think the tax credit system was restricted to the PAYE?

Elfinknight

dvpower wrote: »

Applying the law

you mean the laws where the politicians can award themselves fine fat pay checks

the laws where a victim goes to jail for defending himself?

the laws where we are taxed to the hilt and get nothing in return?

dvpower

Elfinknight wrote: »

you mean the laws where the politicians can award themselves fine fat pay checks

the laws where a victim goes to jail for defending himself?

the laws where we are taxed to the hilt and get nothing in return?

What the hell are you on about?
I was referring to the Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011.

Do you think that this law shouldn't be enforced? (No need to answer that)

dvpower

bluecode wrote: »

So carry on with your smug crusade to blur the issues.

Smug? You're having a laugh.
You are the master of smug >>

bluecode wrote: »

We sleep better from laughing ourselves to sleep at the fools who paid the charge, thus ensuring they will be the first to get caught for the full property tax when it comes into law.

Well done fools.:D

charlemont

Sodden Pussy wrote: »

I'm with SMASh on this one. I will gladly pay a tax in return for an efficient less-wasteful council service.
Two weeks ago in our small fart of a town 5 (yes FIVE) council workers emptied the public bins as follows:-
One driver of the council tipper body truck
One on the back of the truck
One in the cab with the driver
Two walking from bin to bin and carrying the trash over to the ruck (one of the workers spent over 10 mins chatting to his buddy that he met on the street)

Says it all really, By paying this tax people are only going to make the problem worse, More money to waste.

mikom

mikom wrote: »

If your fuel tank is pissin' out petrol from a hole in the bottom then topping it up won't help much.

alastair wrote: »

I think you'll find efficient running your car involves a fairly steady stream of fuel as well. Topping it up comes with the territory.

Sodden Pussy wrote: »

Two weeks ago in our small fart of a town 5 (yes FIVE) council workers emptied the public bins as follows:-
One driver of the council tipper body truck
One on the back of the truck
One in the cab with the driver
Two walking from bin to bin and carrying the trash over to the ruck (one of the workers spent over 10 mins chatting to his buddy that he met on the street)

Time to invest in a bowser for your muscle car alastair.

Elfinknight

dvpower wrote: »

What the hell are you on about?
I was referring to the Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011.

Do you think that this law shouldn't be enforced? (No need to answer that)

No because we are being bled dry as it is and it should be repealed.

Now, seeing as its a tax to fund the local government, assuming they get it, where was their funding coming from before this, and why are they not getting it any more?

Answer: It's being diverted to the banks and bondholders, so directly or indirectly, it's really a tax for them.

Ghandee

Elfinknight wrote: »

No because we are being bled dry as it is and it should be repealed.

Now, seeing as its a tax to fund the local government, assuming they get it, where was their funding coming from before this, and why are they not getting it any more?

Answer: It's being diverted to the banks and bondholders, so directly or indirectly, it's really a tax for them.

In before he says stamp duty.....

tayto lover

Elfinknight wrote: »

No because we are being bled dry as it is and it should be repealed.

Now, seeing as its a tax to fund the local government, assuming they get it, where was their funding coming from before this, and why are they not getting it any more?

Answer: It's being diverted to the banks and bondholders, so directly or indirectly, it's really a tax for them.

Yes they are really fooling nobody with that. I don't think anyone bought that even with all the shills on here trying to convince them.

dvpower

Elfinknight wrote: »

No because we are being bled dry as it is and it should be repealed.

There's a mechanism for that. Vote for parties that oppose it and get them to repeal it.

Elfinknight wrote: »

Now, seeing as its a tax to fund the local government, assuming they get it, where was their funding coming from before this, and why are they not getting it any more?

Are you a visitor to this country?
We used to fund local services fully from the central exchequer, buoyed by property based transaction taxes like stamp duty. But the economy has suffered a severe collapse and with it our tax base.

Elfinknight wrote: »

Answer: It's being diverted to the banks and bondholders, so directly or indirectly, it's really a tax for them.

Unfortunetly, the actual facts don't match this fantasy.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

In before he says stamp duty.....

I suspect you mention it because you know it to be true.

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes they are really fooling nobody with that. I don't think anyone bought that even with all the shills on here trying to convince them.

Are insults all you have to contribute?

Elfinknight

dvpower wrote: »

There's a mechanism for that. Vote for parties that oppose it and get them to repeal it.



Are you a visitor to this country?
We used to fund local services fully from the central exchequer, buoyed by property based transaction taxes like stamp duty. But the economy has suffered a severe collapse and with it our tax base.



Unfortunetly, the actual facts don't match this fantasy.

Lad,
I'm born and bred in this country, but please continue your history lesson, why has the economy suffered a severe collapse? and with it our tax base?

I was alway under the impression that the banks and bondholders got into trouble and the boys in the dail bailed them out and now we have to bail them out.
BTW I'm being sarcastic again, i do know how local government was funded. your detector seems to be on the fritz

I think you will find that if you come off your high horse, you will see reality much more clearly

Also, if you look at the question I asked inthe elections forum titled "petition question", you will see I have asked is there ways of overturning government motoins by popular petition. The way I see it this country wont last to get to another election, We'll all be after leaving the place and going to someplace where the government dont bite the hand that feeds it

dvpower

Elfinknight wrote: »

I was alway under the impression that the banks and bondholders got into trouble and the boys in the dail bailed them out and now we have to bail them out.

We are. But this has very little to do with the deficit. They are being bailed out largely with borrowed money, the interest payments on this account for relatively very little of our total outgoings.

So, although its comforting, but inaccurate, to blame the bondholders for the collapse of our tax base, we still face the reality that we have a hugh deficit that remains to be closed.
Because of the deficit, and not the bondholders, we don't have the resources to fully fund even reduced local services from current tax revenues.

tayto lover

Elfinknight wrote: »

Lad,
I'm born and bred in this country, but please continue your history lesson, why has the economy suffered a severe collapse? and with it our tax base?

I was alway under the impression that the banks and bondholders got into trouble and the boys in the dail bailed them out and now we have to bail them out.
BTW I'm being sarcastic again, i do know how local government was funded. your detector seems to be on the fritz

I think you will find that if you come off your high horse, you will see reality much more clearly

Also, if you look at the question I asked inthe elections forum titled "petition question", you will see I have asked is there ways of overturning government motoins by popular petition. The way I see it this country wont last to get to another election, We'll all be after leaving the place and going to someplace where the government dont bite the hand that feeds it

He doesn't like facts and will accuse you of insulting him if you speak the truth.
1. The Govt gave guarantees to protect the banks and bondholders many of whom politicians of all hues were closer to like Hogan/Fingleton and Fitzpatrick/Cowan.
2. We have to pay for this badly thought-out policy.

There are some on here who are clearly affiliated to the FG party and have been venting their spleen at anyone who cares to speak the truth. You are right of course as the money that once went to pay for services is now being directed towards Europe.

FTGFOP

AEDIC wrote: »

Dont see the difference. What the tax money is used for is irrelevant to the reason for collecting it. That decision is down to the Govt (rightly or wrongly)

According to these guys a 'road tax' is exactly what we have

http://www.vrt.ie/roadtax.php

At the bottom of that website:

© 2008, Very Reasonable Transport. Very Reasonable Transport has no affiliation with the Irish Government or Revenue Commissioners and is simply providing an information service.

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

There are some on here who are clearly affiliated to the FG party and have been venting their spleen at anyone who cares to speak the truth. You are right of course as the money that once went to pay for services is now being directed towards Europe.

Again, you completely ignore the deficit and the collapse of tax revenues.

Am Chile

Hogan let the cat out of the bag in Donegal with his comment.

Minister Hogan said the plan all along was for revenue to take over the tax. He denied he was passing on the charge for political expediency.

"It was always intended that once the database was established, the professional collectors of taxation, namely the revenue commissioners, would be involved," he said.

In other words once they have the database they know who to deduct from at source-however there's still hundreds of thousands not registered-they might go through esb bills-but someones name on a esb won't prove they own a property-so as to how they Intend to get proof of property ownership for hundreds of thousands not registered.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hogan-revenue-to-take-over-property-tax-collection-560598.html

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

Again, you completely ignore the deficit and the collapse of tax revenues.

Had we let Anglo go where it deserved to go our problems could have been sorted out easily enough. Everyone knows that. The problems arose because there were too many politicians and a banking regulator far too close to those same bankers. Cozy cartels. The public are being told to take up the flak.

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

Had we let Anglo go where it deserved to go our problems could have been sorted out easily enough. Everyone knows that.

If that's what you believe you are beyond help.
We have hardly begun to pay back the Anglo money.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

If that's what you believe you are beyond help.
We have hardly begun to pay back the Anglo money.

Well I wouldn't have been used to receiving help unlike your buddy Phil.

Cantona's Collars

dvpower wrote: »

We have hardly begun to pay back the Anglo money.

That's 'cos not everybody has coughed up the €100 to go towards paying of said Anglo costs.;)

katy67

It would be very interesting to see how many of the people that paid the 100e will actually pay 1000e property tax next year:rolleyes:

Bondie

All these tax dodgers, like their dole cheating brethren should be named and shamed then brought before the courts. They have no place in society

tayto lover

Bondie wrote: »

All these tax dodgers, like their dole cheating brethren should be named and shamed then brought before the courts. They have no place in society

You sound familiar too :rolleyes:

NIMAN

katy67 wrote: »

It would be very interesting to see how many of the people that paid the 100e will actually pay 1000e property tax next year:rolleyes:

Most people living in small houses won't be asked to pay €1000, thats kite-flying to scare us, then we feel better when we get a bill for €300.

Some people in massive houses may have to pay €1000+ though.

bgrizzley

tayto lover wrote: »

You sound familiar too :rolleyes:

opened in April, someone was thinking ahead........

cooperguy

Am Chile wrote: »

Hogan let the cat out of the bag in Donegal with his comment.



In other words once they have the database they know who to deduct from at source-however there's still hundreds of thousands not registered-they might go through esb bills-but someones name on a esb won't prove they own a property-so as to how they Intend to get proof of property ownership for hundreds of thousands not registered.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hogan-revenue-to-take-over-property-tax-collection-560598.html

People claim tax credits for the mortgage interest relief.

Also people really have to stop claiming the money is going to the banks. Has anyone seen the budget deficit? Thats where its going and its unrelated!

Elfinknight

And there is a budget deficit because.........

dvpower

Elfinknight wrote: »

And there is a budget deficit because.........

Why do you think we have a budget deficit?

Elfinknight

dvpower wrote: »

Why do you think we have a budget deficit?

Why? Don't you know?

dvpower

Elfinknight wrote: »

Why? Don't you know?

Yep. The figures are clear.
Here are our tax reciepts for recent years. I'm sure someone will attempt to spin this into the Anglo bondholders narrative.

Year|€ Net Reciepts
2007|47,502,493,514
2008|41,073,404,475
2009|33,277,336,307
2010|31,918,425,924


Source: Revenue Commisioners - Statistical report 2010
Covers: Customs Excise, Capital Acquisitions Tax, Capital Gains Tax, Stamps, Income Tax, Corporation Tax, Value Added Tax, Customs Duties on Agricultural Products

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Yep. The figures are clear.
Here are our tax reciepts for recent years. I'm sure someone will attempt to spin this into the Anglo bondholders narrative.

Year|€ Net Reciepts
2007|47,502,493,514
2008|41,073,404,475
2009|33,277,336,307
2010|31,918,425,924


Source: Revenue Commisioners - Statistical report 2010
Covers: Customs Excise, Capital Acquisitions Tax, Capital Gains Tax, Stamps, Income Tax, Corporation Tax, Value Added Tax, Customs Duties on Agricultural Products

Dv, I am interested to hear your views now on how you feel that Phil Hogan has admitted the majority off the public have not paid the charge?

The guys supporting and advising this scam are in the minority!

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Dv, I am interested to hear your views now on how you feel that Phil Hogan has admitted the majority off the public have not paid the charge?

I didn't see that - do you have a link?

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Dv, I am interested to hear your views now on how you feel that Phil Hogan has admitted the majority off the public have not paid the charge?

Ghandee wrote: »

Fifty two percent of one hundred is a majority, to top that off, he threatens them

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0725/breaking43.html

He was in Co. Donegal where there is a majority who didn't pay. This isn't the national figure.

So, he has not admitted that "the majority off the public have not paid the charge".

The Minister urged the 52 per cent of people in the county who had not paid the
charge to date to pay it. Mr Hogan said if they did not, the local council and
its management would have "no option" but to reduce essential services by the
end of the year

Elfinknight

dvpower wrote: »

Yep. The figures are clear.
Here are our tax reciepts for recent years. I'm sure someone will attempt to spin this into the Anglo bondholders narrative.

Year|€ Net Reciepts
2007|47,502,493,514
2008|41,073,404,475
2009|33,277,336,307
2010|31,918,425,924


Source: Revenue Commisioners - Statistical report 2010
Covers: Customs Excise, Capital Acquisitions Tax, Capital Gains Tax, Stamps, Income Tax, Corporation Tax, Value Added Tax, Customs Duties on Agricultural Products

Dvpower

Stop avoiding my question.

All you done is prove that, yes, there is a deficit in the tax take. We know that.

My question was If I remember correctly

"And there is a deficit because...." as in Why is there a deficit?

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

He was in Co. Donegal where there is a majority who didn't pay. This isn't the national figure.

So, he has not admitted that "the majority off the public have not paid the charge".

Copped that as soon as I re-read.
My eyes are tired in fairness......

I stand corrected though.....

dvpower

Elfinknight wrote: »

All you done is prove that, yes, there is a deficit in the tax take. We know that.

Well you didn't know that, as you illustrated just a few hours ago.

Elfinknight wrote: »

Now, seeing as its a tax to fund the local government, assuming they get it, where was their funding coming from before this, and why are they not getting it any more?

Elfinknight wrote: »

"And there is a deficit because...." as in Why is there a deficit?

Maybe you could give us your view on that first - I'm doing all the heavy lifting here.

tayto lover

The whole thing is completely mad. We all knew (well except the shills) that the majority didn't pay and won't. People do not like an attack on their own abode, never did and never will.
I love the comment under the article as it says what most of us think regarding this unfair and unjust Tax on our homes. "Putting People First" is laughable too as they always put themselves first especially in their dealings with Europe where they wanted to be seen as the "good wee boys" and get their heads patted.
The Revenue collecting the Property Tax will be a stop-start affair too. I spoke to a neighbour who is well up in the Revenue Commissioners office and when I asked him when they would be starting to collect it he said they were not equipped to do so yet and that it would take ages. He hadn't even paid his own HHC either.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

Well you didn't know that, as you illustrated just a few hours ago.




Maybe you could give us your view on that first - I'm doing all the heavy lifting here.

Are you not on the books?

Elfinknight

dvpower wrote: »

Well you didn't know that, as you illustrated just a few hours ago.




Maybe you could give us your view on that first - I'm doing all the heavy lifting here.

DV
Now qoute my post from after That, THE WHOLE POST. the one where i told you that I knew how they are funded and youir sarcasm meter was on the fritz. go one you know the one I mean. Its there for every one to see.

You are still avoiding the question. Do you not have the answer an answer or not

Elfinknight

dvpower wrote: »

Well you didn't know that, as you illustrated just a few hours ago.




Maybe you could give us your view on that first - I'm doing all the heavy lifting here.

DV
Now qoute my post from after That, THE WHOLE POST. the one where i told you that I knew how they are funded and youir sarcasm meter was on the fritz. go one you know the one I mean. Its there for every one to see.

You are still avoiding the question. Do you not have the answer an answer or not

Elfinknight

Sorry about double post folks, I didn't realise i had clicked it twice

dvpower

Elfinknight wrote: »

You are still avoiding the question. Do you not have the answer an answer or not

I'm hardly avoiding anything. As I said, I'm doing all the heavy lifting around here, and I'm not getting much back from you, except a bad attitude.

Anyway, there were obviously a number of factors, some external related to the credit crunch, but mainly here, of our own making, because of our property bubble, which we did nothing to arrest.

You can see the absolute collapse of stamp duty revenue in the receipts figures.

Year|€ Stamp Reciepts
2005|2,001,538,417
2006|2,989,442,013
2007|2,381,063,507
2008|1,045,025,016
2009|329,228,656
2010|198,619,849


Category: Land and property other than stocks and shares

You can place part of the blame on the likes of Anglo for being a conduit for cheap credit and helping to inflate the bubble, but it still leaves us in the same place, with a massive shortfall in revenue. All the hand wringing in the world doesn't solve that problem.

So, I think I've demonstrated that the cost of the bank bailouts are not our sole problem. They are a big problem that are going to weigh on us for years - maybe generations, but they aren't the most significant contributor to our current deficit.

Maybe you have an alternative analysis you'd like to share?

Elfinknight

While we both seem agree that the bank bail out and the property bubble were major contributors, my opinion is that it is the cost of the bank bailouts is what broke the country.

The linking of sovereign debt to that of the banks is something that should never have been allowed as in order to help the banks from going under, the state coffers got emptied requiring us to call in outside help. It is now trying to pay back this outside help that is causing the money that would have normally gone to the local government, that is paid by our income tax,to be routed against the soverigen debt, requiring additional taxes.

So now we need to ask ourselves why did the banks leave themselves get into so much trouble.

Well you answered that one yourself and i do agree with you on it. An uncontrolled property bubble which collapsed due to the global recession, caused by the subprime market in the States.

What should have been done, instead of the bank bailout trying to save the banks from going under, The government of the time should have garanteed the savings of the people of Ireland. That way if a bank or 2 did go under, the government would have the people covered, not the corporations. After all, I could always find another bank to deal with while those who caused this mess would learn that they are not invunerable.

I pay every other tax and levy the government has brought in, so has my Missus. So far this year this has amounted to approximatly 15500 Euros. |By extraplolating for the rest of the year, It will mean that over the whole year I will be giving the state 31000 at least for 2012. Add in aproximatly another 1000 VAT for items we pay cash for its hard to see why they want another poxy 100 Euro after giving them 32000, Whle I refuse to pay the tax on principle, There are many families out there that the 100E is a matter of food on the table or not.

Finally somebody made a post earlier that 800000 people cannot be wrong to which someone else replied that 800000 paid.
Please remember that the figure on both sides are approximate so of an estimated 1.6 million households 800000 didn't pay either.

long range shooter

Aquila wrote: »

What do other countries in Europe such as Norway who have a similar population size do to pay for such services?

0.2% of Property Value each year depending on what part of the country you are in

long range shooter

Aquila wrote: »

What do other countries in Europe such as Norway who have a similar population size do to pay for such services?

0.2% of Property Value each year depending on what part of the country you are in