Nice guys finish last?

shopaholic01

Daveysil15 wrote: »

What makes you think I have difficulty attracting women? Yes I may have a preference for foreign women, (whom I have had success attracting I might add) but I'm not saying I wouldn't date an Irish girl, and I'm not tring to belittle anyone. I'm just saying the dating/social scene here in not great compared to other places I've been to. Location does come into it. I know from experience.

Apologies for the assumption, but a lot of your posts are very negative towards women - how unapproachable and bitchy we are, how materialistic we are, how we're obsessed with height, looks, financial situation etc.


It does tend to suggest you have an issue, otherwise why obsess about it? You also seem to believe that men are more likely to 'be left on the shelf', but who are these 'taken' women hooking up with?

Daveysil15

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Apologies for the assumption, but a lot of your posts are very negative towards women - how unapproachable and bitchy we are, how materialistic we are, how we're obsessed with height, looks, financial situation etc.


It does tend to suggest you have an issue, otherwise why obsess about it? You also seem to believe that men are more likely to 'be left on the shelf', but who are these 'taken' women hooking up with?

You're been very vague there. Yes I have made comments about the height thing and some women been bitchy in night clubs etc - but so have a lot of people. That doesn't mean I'm bitter or have an agenda. I never said all women are like that. Women have made numerous complaints about men on these threads, but usually don't get accused of misandry. We're all entiltled to an opinion and discuss our past experiences.

Gauss

Daveysil15 wrote: »

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Daveysil15, from some of your previous posts it's obvious you have had a bad experience with women. You think we all want a tall, exceptionally good-looking, wealthy man with his own house. You have also stated that you only want a non-Irish national girlfriend.

Going out with that chip on your shoulder is probably the real reason you have difficulty attracting women.

Yes, you will always meet arseholes - male and female, Irish and non-Irish nationals - but don't tar everyone with the same brush.

I had an absolute dickhead of an ex, but I don't belittle and demean all Irish men as a result.

If you approach women with the attitude that she'll never fall for you, you will always be right.

1ZRed is correct, go out and make the effort, but for christ sake, be positive!

What makes you think I have difficulty attracting women? Yes I may have a preference for foreign women, (whom I have had success attracting I might add) but I'm not saying I wouldn't date an Irish girl, and I'm not tring to belittle anyone. I'm just saying the dating/social scene here in not great compared to other places I've been to. Location does come into it. I know from experience.

What "scene"?

See woman, talk to woman, ask her out?

She says yes or she says no. What's the problem?

shopaholic01

Daveysil15 wrote: »

You're been very vague there. Yes I have made comments about the height thing and some women been bitchy in night clubs etc - but so have a lot of people. I never said all women are like that. Women have made numerous complaints about men on these threads, but usually don't get accused of misandry. We're all entiltled to an opinion and discuss our past experiences. That doesn't mean we're bitter or have an agenda.

I didn't think I was being vague. You started a thread about Irish women who wouldn't consider dating a man who didn't own his own home or who lived with his parents. You seem to think we are materialistic etc.

You also said that women were more likely to meet a partner than men, so again, who are they hooking up with?

Daveysil15

Gauss wrote: »

What "scene"?

See woman, talk to woman, ask her out?

She says yes or she says no. What's the problem?

Well try doing that outside of the bar/club area in Ireland and chances are you'll get a funny look as its not the norm here. There are exceptions of course, but our dating culture is a lot different to say America. Again I'm not saying its all bad here, but there are differences.

shopaholic01

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Well try doing that outside of the bar/club area in Ireland and chances are you'll get a funny look as its not the norm here. There are exceptions of course, but our dating culture is a lot different to say America. Again I'm not saying its all bad here, but there are differences.

The same applies to women though! If I approached a guy in a supermarket for example, he would probably think I was a nutter.

Daveysil15

shopaholic01 wrote: »

I didn't think I was being vague. You started a thread about Irish women who wouldn't consider dating a man who didn't own his own home or who lived with his parents. You seem to think we are materialistic etc.

You also said that women were more likely to meet a partner than men, so again, who are they hooking up with?

I started a thread asking if a man living at home was a deal-breaker. That doesn't mean I think all women are materialistic. I was just looking for peoples opinions because I was curious.

As far as women been more likely to meet men, that's a numbers game and determined by a demographic imbalance.

shopaholic01

Daveysil15 wrote: »

I started a thread asking if a man living at home was a deal-breaker. That doesn't mean I think all women are materialistic. I was just looking for peoples opinions because I was curious.

More than curious, you slated Irish women. Fair enough if that's your opinion, but we're not all the same!

Daveysil15 wrote: »

As far as women been more likely to meet men, that's a numbers game and determined by a demographic imbalance.

A demographic imbalance is different to us all being unapproachable and bitchy. I thought there were more women now than men?

1ZRed

Daveysil15 wrote: »

I think location plays a part in it. Tbh out of all the places I've been to I've never witnessed the level of contempt towards men that I see in Irish bars and clubs. Our dating/social scene is a joke and I think that makes it difficult for a lot of people to meet someone.

I think you should stop generalising things. I've never witnessed this and I've found people to always be friendly and good craic whenever I go out. I think your own attitude makes a big difference on the vibe you put across. "You give a little, you get a little" sort of thing.
What I don't get is a lot Irish lads throwing down on girls for no reason. I don't think that's fair and as I've said before, I know the type of guy that says those sort of things.
Personally, I think we have a great dating/social scene and I enjoy myself. Maybe you see it differently but I don't get how it could be any different from your perspective.

At the end of the day when you go out, go out to have a good time with your friends. Don't go looking for girlfriends, ONS and the rest, and get taking to people for the sake of meeting new people and have a laugh. I love meeting new people and even if it doesn't get anywhere, what do I care? It wasn't my first intention to begin with and I've nearly always had a good time so it's still a good night.
I think people forget why you should be going out in the first place, and expect too much. It's funny, but the times I haven't been looking for anything are the best nights I've had out.

1ZRed

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Well try doing that outside of the bar/club area in Ireland and chances are you'll get a funny look as its not the norm here. There are exceptions of course, but our dating culture is a lot different to say America. Again I'm not saying its all bad here, but there are differences.

Did it, and did it with a man as well when the stakes would be much higher compared to a straight guy asking a girl out.

But honestly, you'll never know if you never try. You can be as cynical as you'd like if you put yourself out there as much as you can at every opportunity but if you don't, we'll then, I don't think you're entitled to generalise the dating scene here or the girls here either.

Daveysil15

shopaholic01 wrote: »

More than curious, you slated Irish women. Fair enough if that's your opinion, but we're not all the same

I never slated Irish women in that thread actually. I just asked a question.

1ZRed wrote: »

Did it, and did it with a man as well.

Exactly, you're hardly typically if have both sexes to choose from.

Halloran springs

I think nice guys finish last.

I don't think nice guys finish last.

Gauss

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

What "scene"?

See woman, talk to woman, ask her out?

She says yes or she says no. What's the problem?

Well try doing that outside of the bar/club area in Ireland and chances are you'll get a funny look as its not the norm here. There are exceptions of course, but our dating culture is a lot different to say America. Again I'm not saying its all bad here, but there are differences.

What look did you get when you did it?

And how do women react in America when you ask them out?

Sir Pompous Righteousness

I love arseholes. They're great to rim.

1ZRed

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Exactly, you're hardly typically if have both sexes to choose from.

What difference would that make? I would still be choosing from the same amount of girls you would.

And anyway, I think that could be where you might be going a bit off. It's not just *you* that chooses the girl, and if she's up to your standards. She is just as capable of choosing you if she likes, or discarding you if she doesn't. I've seen guys do this where they might not get girls as easily as they'd like but it's all about who *they* see as good enough to pick.

Not saying you're doing this, but I've noticed it in guys that have a similar set of opinions on this.

Daveysil15

1ZRed wrote: »

What difference would that make? I would still be choosing from the same amount of girls you would.

And anyway, I think that could be where you might be going a bit off. It's not just *you* that chooses the girl, and if she's up to your standards. She is just as capable of choosing you if she likes, or discarding you if she doesn't. I've seen guys do this where they might not get girls as easily as they'd like but it's all about who *they* see as good enough to pick.

Not saying you're doing this, but I've noticed it in guys that have a similar set of opinions on this.

Look - I'm not saying its hopeless here. I've just had better luck elsewhere and have found other cultures more friendly and approachable. You say you've found the night life here to be fine and have had no troubles. Fair enough - that's your experience... not mine.

Glenn_Flinn

In the psychology of females, there is a very strong need to feel accepted by other people. In most cultures, women seek this acceptance from a relationship with a man. However in this culture men have been devalued and women tend to seek it more so from a larger group of their peers. When they do seek a relationship, they want it to be with a man who is held in high regard by the culture at large first and foremost, rather than evaluating him on how he feels about her and how much respect he treats her with. Unfortunately, "niceness" is simply not valued in this culture. It's all about whoever can gain the most status and attention and being nice simply doesn't achieve this. Being an asshole is seen as dominant and as a result assholes are held in high regard.

Gauss

Daveysil15 wrote: »

1ZRed wrote: »

What difference would that make? I would still be choosing from the same amount of girls you would.

And anyway, I think that could be where you might be going a bit off. It's not just *you* that chooses the girl, and if she's up to your standards. She is just as capable of choosing you if she likes, or discarding you if she doesn't. I've seen guys do this where they might not get girls as easily as they'd like but it's all about who *they* see as good enough to pick.

Not saying you're doing this, but I've noticed it in guys that have a similar set of opinions on this.

Look - I'm not saying its hopeless here. I've just had better luck elsewhere and have found other cultures more friendly and approachable. You say you've found the night life here to be fine and have had no troubles. Fair enough - that's your experience... not mine.

Maybe you're doing something that's contributing to not being as good with women in Ireland as other places. Lots of men have great success here too.

Daveysil15

Glenn_Flinn wrote: »

In the psychology of females, there is a very strong need to feel accepted by other people. In most cultures, women seek this acceptance from a relationship with a man. However in this culture men have been devalued and women tend to seek it more so from a larger group of their peers. When they do seek a relationship, they want it to be with a man who is held in high regard by the culture at large first and foremost, rather than evaluating him on how he feels about her and how much respect he treats her with. Unfortunately, "niceness" is simply not valued in this culture. It's all about whoever can gain the most status and attention and being nice simply doesn't achieve this. Being an asshole is seen as dominant and as a result assholes are held in high regard.

+1 Thanks Glenn. You put it better than I ever could, and I have noticed that in other cultures men are valued more.

Red Hand

Glenn_Flinn wrote: »

In the psychology of females, there is a very strong need to feel accepted by other people. In most cultures, women seek this acceptance from a relationship with a man. However in this culture men have been devalued and women tend to seek it more so from a larger group of their peers. When they do seek a relationship, they want it to be with a man who is held in high regard by the culture at large first and foremost, rather than evaluating him on how he feels about her and how much respect he treats her with. Unfortunately, "niceness" is simply not valued in this culture. It's all about whoever can gain the most status and attention and being nice simply doesn't achieve this. Being an asshole is seen as dominant and as a result assholes are held in high regard.

Of course fella.:)

shopaholic01

Glenn_Flinn wrote: »

In the psychology of females, there is a very strong need to feel accepted by other people. In most cultures, women seek this acceptance from a relationship with a man. However in this culture men have been devalued and women tend to seek it more so from a larger group of their peers. When they do seek a relationship, they want it to be with a man who is held in high regard by the culture at large first and foremost, rather than evaluating him on how he feels about her and how much respect he treats her with. Unfortunately, "niceness" is simply not valued in this culture. It's all about whoever can gain the most status and attention and being nice simply doesn't achieve this. Being an asshole is seen as dominant and as a result assholes are held in high regard.

Daveysil15 wrote: »

+1 Thanks Glenn. You put it better than I ever could, and I have noticed that in other cultures men are valued more.

Lads to be fair, your problem isn't with women, it's your self esteem.

In some cultures women are seen as possessions and second class citizens - would you prefer that? Men are valued here, whingers aren't.

Glenn_Flinn

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Lads to be fair, your problem isn't with women, it's your self esteem.

My problem isn't with women, it's with a highly competitive culture where men's value is based on superficial traits. In other cultures, humility is strongly valued in a man, but it's worthless here as you have to arrogantly display your position as a high-status male in some phony way or be disregarded. I'm not saying this is the case 100% of the time. But it is generally more so the case than in many other places, as evident to anyone who's traveled.

Bipolar Joe

This crap is all a spiral, you can go up or down it. Some dudes need a break, for someone to show interest in them, which builds confidence. Some people can magic confidence out of some place or other. To me, that's a skill. It's difficult to be confident when you're shot down every time. After a while, it gets to you.

It's like gunning for a promotion. You do all the things you think you have to do, but it doesn't happen. Fuck it, maybe next time. Nope, there it goes again. And again. Every time. After a while, you begin thinking you're gonna be stuck in that same shitty position forever. Of course there's going to be a "Why not Zoidberg?" situation going on inside your head.

It's easy to cast off the way other people feel, especially when you seem to get the promotion.

Let's face it, very, very few people want to be alone forever.

I do think it's bad when constant rejection turns into bitterness and resentment (Totally guilty), but it happens really easily and when you're not even paying attention to it.

Gauss

Glenn_Flinn wrote: »

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Lads to be fair, your problem isn't with women, it's your self esteem.

My problem isn't with women, it's with a highly competitive culture where men's value is based on superficial traits. In other cultures, humility is strongly valued in a man, but it's worthless here as you have to arrogantly display your position as a high-status male in some phony way or be disregarded. I'm not saying this is the case 100% of the time. But it is generally more so the case than in many other places, as evident to anyone who's traveled.

Have you never seen guys who are simply cool, friendly and sociable do well with women? Never?

shopaholic01

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

This crap is all a spiral, you can go up or down it. Some dudes need a break, for someone to show interest in them, which builds confidence. Some people can magic confidence out of some place or other. To me, that's a skill. It's difficult to be confident when you're shot down every time. After a while, it gets to you.

It's like gunning for a promotion. You do all the things you think you have to do, but it doesn't happen. Fuck it, maybe next time. Nope, there it goes again. And again. Every time. After a while, you begin thinking you're gonna be stuck in that same shitty position forever. Of course there's going to be a "Why not Zoidberg?" situation going on inside your head.

It's easy to cast off the way other people feel, especially when you seem to get the promotion.

Let's face it, very, very few people want to be alone forever.

I do think it's bad when constant rejection turns into bitterness and resentment (Totally guilty), but it happens really easily and when you're not even paying attention to it.

Unfortunately, that turns your spiral into a vicious circle. People will sense bitterness and resentment and that will be an immediate turnoff.

1ZRed

Daveysil15 wrote: »

+1 Thanks Glenn. You put it better than I ever could, and I have noticed that in other cultures men are valued more.

You just seem to want to find a way to justify your situation and cast it off like you have absolutely no control over it, like it's all just culture. But you do have some sort of control on the outcome of things, you just might need to step it up a bit and get yourself out there and try a bit harder. We all do it.

Glenn_Flinn

Gauss wrote: »

Have you never seen guys who are simply cool, friendly and sociable do well with women? Never?

Yes, I have. But that's not what this discussion is about. It's about why niceness is not valued in men. If a man is not very attractive or "cool", he cannot compensate with niceness here, whereas elsewhere he could.

Daveysil15

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Lads to be fair, your problem isn't with women, it's your self esteem.

Right, so if we notice a difference in other cultures and find people to appreciate niceness more, then we have a problem with self esteem. That makes absolutely no sense.

Eve_Dublin

Glenn_Flinn wrote: »

My problem isn't with women, it's with a highly competitive culture where men's value is based on superficial traits. In other cultures, humility is strongly valued in a man, but it's worthless here as you have to arrogantly display your position as a high-status male in some phony way or be disregarded. I'm not saying this is the case 100% of the time. But it is generally more so the case than in many other places, as evident to anyone who's traveled.

Can you name a few countries where this is the case? Just curious.

CatEyed92

Hmmmmm.....

Glenn_Flinn

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Can you name a few countries where this is the case? Just curious.

The countries untainted by feminism. In other words: Non-western(ized) ones.

Bipolar Joe

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Unfortunately, that turns your spiral into a vicious circle. People will sense bitterness and resentment and that will be an immediate turnoff.

Which is exactly my point, but the result is understandable, from both parties. Constant beatdowns damage the ego, same as things constantly, or even occasionally, working out build you up. Honestly, it seems like no one is willing to see things from the other side of the fence.

Personally, I've grown depressed and apathetic, just dealing with the idea that it probably won't happen. Maybe I'll get a bunch of cats, instead.

Snowie

some times people need to finish last in order to learn how to finish first....


:cool:

shopaholic01

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Right, so if we notice a difference in other cultures and find people to appreciate niceness more, then we have a problem with self esteem. That makes absolutely no sense.

So men are too nice, too short, not attractive enough, don't own their own house, don't have enough money ....... but only in Ireland.

Sure what hope have you got?

Daveysil15

shopaholic01 wrote: »

So men are too nice, too short, not attractive enough, don't own their own house, don't have enough money ....... but only in Ireland.

Sure what hope have you got?

That's not what I'm saying at all. As I've already said, its not hopeless here, its just more difficult than it needs to be.

Millicent

Glenn_Flinn wrote: »

My problem isn't with women, it's with a highly competitive culture where men's value is based on superficial traits. In other cultures, humility is strongly valued in a man, but it's worthless here as you have to arrogantly display your position as a high-status male in some phony way or be disregarded. I'm not saying this is the case 100% of the time. But it is generally more so the case than in many other places, as evident to anyone who's traveled.

The Irish are self-deprecating to a fault. I'm not sure what culture you're thinking of where people are encouraged to be boastful but it ain't Ireland.

Glenn_Flinn wrote: »

The countries untainted by feminism. In other words: Non-western(ized) ones.

Eh? Like where? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? Where is this magical country where a lack of feminism means that the men are valued for being humble?

shopaholic01

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Which is exactly my point, but the result is understandable, from both parties. Constant beatdowns damage the ego, same as things constantly, or even occasionally, working out build you up. Honestly, it seems like no one is willing to see things from the other side of the fence.

Personally, I've grown depressed and apathetic, just dealing with the idea that it probably won't happen. Maybe I'll get a bunch of cats, instead.

Do you mind me asking how old you are? There is an attitude here that you have to be settled down at a certain age or you're a social failure.

shopaholic01

Snowie wrote: »

some times people need to finish last in order to learn how to finish first....


:cool:

Well a man who finishes last has an immediate advantage .............

Madam_X

Millicent wrote: »

The Irish are self-deprecating to a fault. I'm not sure what culture you're thinking of where people are encouraged to be boastful but it ain't Ireland.
Eh? Like where? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? Where is this magical country where a lack of feminism means that the men are valued for being humble?

No point in bothering with him Mil - shur he's said other times that it's great about non westernised (particularly non jewish - hates the jews he does) societies that women respect "manly" men.

Daveysil15

Millicent wrote: »

Eh? Like where? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? Where is this magical country where a lack of feminism means that the men are valued for being humble?

You don't have to go that far. Eastern Europe will do.

Bipolar Joe

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Do you mind me asking how old you are? There is an attitude here that you have to be settled down at a certain age or you're a social failure.

I kind of do mind, because then my International man-of-mystery cover will be blown.

It's not anything about being a social failure, for myself. I do pretty OK in my tiny little niche market in what I do. It's a thing that I'd like to happen, it might not because sometimes that's how stuff works, so OK. I'll be bummed out, but there it is. I've stopped being bitter, because I can't expect someone to wanna be with someone who's not attractive and kind of weird, with all the other junk that comes along with my deeply flawed mental state. Tesla was a fan of eugenics, that's why he never had kids, so I can be just like him and fall in love with a pigeon.

Millicent

Daveysil15 wrote: »

You don't have to go that far. Eastern Europe will do.

There are feminists in Eastern Europe. I know quite a few. Also, you ignored the first part of my point -- do you really think Irish culture encourages boastfulness? Cos go and tell someone you think you're great at something and see how you get on.

Snowie

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Well a man who finishes last has an immediate advantage .............

binoculars and steeling underwear?

Eve_Dublin

Glenn_Flinn wrote: »

The countries untainted by feminism. In other words: Non-western(ized) ones.

Where women are second class citizens and are treated like muck? Nope. Men are very much numero uno in those countries and mashismo is rife. You still haven't provided me with solid examples though. Names?

Daveysil15

Millicent wrote: »

There are feminists in Eastern Europe. I know quite a few. Also, you ignored the first part of my point -- do you really think Irish culture encourages boastfulness? Cos go and tell someone you think you're great at something and see how you get on.

I never said anything about boastfulness so I don't know. No country is perfect but sure look, if you're having no luck fishing in one sea you can always try another. I've found it easier in other cultures but that's just my experience, and I'm not saying its all bad here. Each to their own.

shopaholic01

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

I kind of do mind, because then my International man-of-mystery cover will be blown.

It's not anything about being a social failure, for myself. I do pretty OK in my tiny little niche market in what I do. It's a thing that I'd like to happen, it might not because sometimes that's how stuff works, so OK. I'll be bummed out, but there it is. I've stopped being bitter, because I can't expect someone to wanna be with someone who's not attractive and kind of weird, with all the other junk that comes along with my deeply flawed mental state. Tesla was a fan of eugenics, that's why he never had kids, so I can be just like him and fall in love with a pigeon.

Don't be so hard on yourself, we're all 'weird' in our own ways - some of us just hide it better than others.

I remember posting on another thread about advice for a happy life or something similar. My response was to try to have at least one person in your life who knows the real you and won't judge you for your eccentricities. That might be a friend, family member or partner.

I know it's a cliche, but sometimes you meet people in the strangest of circumstances. It may not be a lifelong relationship but they can still be hugely influential in your life.

shopaholic01

Snowie wrote: »

binoculars and steeling underwear?

Toby Take a Bow

Glenn_Flinn wrote: »

The countries untainted by feminism. In other words: Non-western(ized) ones.

Feminism leads to humility in men being non-valued? Can you expand on that a bit, because it doesn't make any sense to me.

The whole 'nice guy' thing is becoming less and less relevant as the thread progresses, because the guys claiming that they are nice actually seem to have huge chips on their shoulders and have a seriously less than 'nice' attitude to women bubbling under the surface.

Bipolar Joe

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Don't be so hard on yourself, we're all 'weird' in our own ways - some of us just hide it better than others.

I remember posting on another thread about advice for a happy life or something similar. My response was to try to have at least one person in your life who knows the real you and won't judge you for your eccentricities. That might be a friend, family member or partner.

I know it's a cliche, but sometimes you meet people in the strangest of circumstances. It may not be a lifelong relationship but they can still be hugely influential in your life.

I have people that accept me, just not that person. Sucks, but it happens. I've accepted it, and that's pretty much that.

Madam_X

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Feminism leads to humility in men being non-valued? Can you expand on that a bit, because it doesn't make any sense to me.

The whole 'nice guy' thing is becoming less and less relevant as the thread progresses, because the guys claiming that they are nice actually seem to have huge chips on their shoulders and have a seriously less than 'nice' attitude to women bubbling under the surface.

Yeh, whenever I read these threads I hear Christian Bale's voice asking "Do you like Phil Collins?"