Gender issues in After Hours - Your feedback requested.

bodice ripper

I don't think it should change, or not much anyway.

If you are going to come down hard on sexism, then really you ought to with ageism, culchie bashing, dub bashing, pretty much suspend discussion about anything involving homosexuality/bisexuality/transgender issues, abusing fat people, abusing people on the dole, the blatantly bigoted **** people say about the Brits and the Yanks etc.

i think if it is just sexism, it does basically come down to "protect the women". The world is full of tossers, I think the delicate feminine flowers are strong enough to deal with it.

PC CDROM

Posting PM's on mod boards is worse

Tom Dunne

PC CDROM wrote: »

Posting PM's on mod boards is worse

Not following you.

What do you mean?

Boombastic

sheesh wrote: »

Can i offer a scenario:

A person makes a comment about women

Someone else reports the post as sexist,

the op says it was not and that they are a woman.

But is the comment they made sexist?

Elmidena

Can a black guy be racist against blacks? If so a woman can be sexist against women.

Disparaging remarks can be played down a bit when it's like-against-like, but on the same point, it doesn't excuse outright venom/condescending tones/other unkind actions. But if that is the case, someone's gender doesn't come into it; it's cardworthy by either sex. Right?

Paddy Cow

Never really noticed a gender issue on AH. Commets like "get back in the kitchen" or "go make a sandwich" are more like "you're ma", irritating but not offensive.

I like that AH isn't as sanitised as say, General Discussion on Digital Spy but it's not a free for all like 4Chan. It's a happy medium where there is a bit more leway. It's supposed to be "the type of chat you have with your mates after a few pints at a lock in" which means that for some people the comments can come across as too far and for others, it's all just a bit of banter.

Of course there are the complete gob****es who go way overboard but for the most part it's a fun place to read/post. I used to read DS a lot but once I found AH, I gravitated more towards it as I prefer the humour in it. It's sarcastic and scathing but it tends to be like that towards everything and not just women in particular.

If posters are specifically targeted, then the culprits should be dealt with but if it's just silly generalisations, then the best thing is to ignore them.

oscarBravo

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Never really noticed a gender issue on AH. Commets like "get back in the kitchen" or "go make a sandwich" are more like "you're ma", irritating but not offensive.

I have trouble with that view. If someone posted "git yo' black ass back in the cotton fields, boy" as an off-hand response to a black poster, would that be irritating but not offensive? I mean, as long as the person saying it is just being a childish idiot as opposed to an actual white supremacist, does it then become acceptable to post it? Are we "over-sanitising" AH by not allowing that sort of attitude?

K-9

Elmidena wrote: »

Can a black guy be racist against blacks? If so a woman can be sexist against women.

Yep, white people can be racist against their own race and men sexist against men, old fashioned attitudes, that type of thing. That's where mods have to be careful when carding stuff, make sure it is the comment itself that is being punished and the gender of the poster doesn't come into it.

Paddy Cow

oscarBravo wrote: »

I have trouble with that view. If someone posted "git yo' black ass back in the cotton fields, boy" as an off-hand response to a black poster, would that be irritating but not offensive? I mean, as long as the person saying it is just being a childish idiot as opposed to an actual white supremacist, does it then become acceptable to post it? Are we "over-sanitising" AH by not allowing that sort of attitude?

I'll rephrase that to I don't personally find them offensive. Maybe it's because I grew up with loads of brothers that I'm immune to that type of thing. I actually find your comparison rather bizarre, as I've never come across that type of comment in AH.

oscarBravo

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I'll rephrase that to I don't personally find them offensive. Maybe it's because I grew up with loads of brothers that I'm immune to that type of thing.

Fair enough, but the reason this thread exists is that lots of people - me included, and I'm a bloke - find remarks like that crass and offensive.

I actually find your comparison rather bizarre, as I've never come across that type of comment in AH.

...but it wouldn't bother you if you did?

My name is URL

I actually find your comparison rather bizarre, as I've never come across that type of comment in AH.

oscarBravo wrote: »

...but it wouldn't bother you if you did?

What an utterly loaded and cherry-picked refutation that is.

Akin to asking if you still beat your wife.

oscarBravo

My name is URL wrote: »

What an utterly loaded and cherry-picked refutation that is.

Akin to asking if you still beat your wife.

Well, no. But I can see how it's easier to dismiss the analogy than to actually put any thought into it.

If you were to actually put any thought into it, can you explain to me why it's not OK to casually toss out racist remarks on AH, but it is OK to casually toss out sexist remarks?

Paddy Cow

oscarBravo wrote: »

Fair enough, but the reason this thread exists is that lots of people - me included, and I'm a bloke - find remarks like that crass and offensive. ...

Those type of comments remind me of the ads you see on tv where the man is made out to be some sort of eejet who can't cook a meal or work a washing machine and the women has to do it for him. You could argue that they are sexist and offensive but they just make me roll my eyes.

Generalisations are thrown around all the time and reacting to them just feeds them. That's the way I see it. It's individual persecution I have a problem with.

oscarBravo wrote: »

but it wouldn't bother you if you did?

It's not something that's going to be posted here though, is it? Race and gender are two different things. We were asked for feedback on gender. I gave mine. You disagree with it, fair enough. I'm not going to pick apart your view or try to question it by bringing in off topic stuff so I'd like the same courtesy. If this was a thread on discrimination in general, then I'd have no problem expanding my opinion but it's not, so I'm going to leave it at that

guppy

Decided my post is not pertinent.

oscarBravo

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Those type of comments remind me of the ads you see on tv where the man is made out to be some sort of eejet who can't cook a meal or work a washing machine and the women has to do it for him. You could argue that they are sexist and offensive but they just make me roll my eyes.

They are sexist and offensive. Again, just because they don't personally offend you doesn't absolve them.

Generalisations are thrown around all the time and reacting to them just feeds them.

But we don't just roll our eyes and ignore racism, so why should we take the same attitude to sexism?

It's not something that's going to be posted here though, is it?

No - although I've seen similar attitudes thinly disguised - because we'd come down on it like a ton of bricks. There's no rolling of eyes, no "ignore it and it'll go away", no "it's OK as long as it's not targeting an individual". Ton. Of. Bricks.

Race and gender are two different things. We were asked for feedback on gender. I gave mine. You disagree with it, fair enough. I'm not going to pick apart your view or try to question it by bringing in off topic stuff so I'd like the same courtesy. If this was a thread on discrimination in general, then I'd have no problem expanding my opinion but it's not, so I'm going to leave it at that

With the greatest of respect, that's just avoiding my point. If you want to avoid the point, fair enough; but one of the things that bugs the hell out of me about AH (and about much of Irish society, of which AH is sadly a microcosm) is the idea that sexism is OK even if racism isn't.

You say that race and gender are two different things: true. But if I as an employer discriminate against a woman or against a black person, I am going to get prosecuted to exactly the same extent.

I can't see any difference between telling a woman to get back in the kitchen and telling a black man to get back in the cotton fields. In my opinion, both are deeply offensive things to say. There's a strong vibe in AH that one is deeply offensive, while the other is mildly un-funny but otherwise entirely acceptable.

I can't see why, and I wish someone would enlighten me.

daenerysstormborn3

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Sexism and dismissive attitudes seem to be among the highest complaints. Again, this is on both sides so we want to hear from both sides.

As we want to make sure we get the balance right we are looking to you to help show us the way.

Where do you think this could be improved?

I don't see much sexism in AH but then again, a lot of the time if I read something and think "whoa that's offensive" I do automatically follow that up with "sure it's AH, what do I expect" so I think sometimes this leads to me automatically dismissing stuff in AH that I might find offensive somewhere else, for instance TGC or TLL.

There are dismissive attitudes all over boards, not just AH. I think that's just the nature of the beast. The world is full of people who dismiss others because they don't want to have an informed discussion about something or they don't have the brainpower to read a post without acting defensively and dismissing it.

I think a lot of the time when people post in AH on threads that actually have a dedicated forum, such as a thread relating to politics that could easily be in the politics forum, it's because they don't have enough knowledge of the subject to post in the dedicated forum and want to have a "dumbed down" (and I don't mean that offensively) discussion about something.

Personally, I don't think anything can be done. As far as I'm concerned all of AH is just a bit of fun, not to be taken too seriously and to be honest, if posters complain about it then maybe don't understand it's purpose.

Snowie

Being honest I always though after hours was a place for tounge and cheek!

if you cant handle it don't go in... Theres a lot of people in after hours and theres a lot of people who like to discuss gender asoicates from booth laddies lounge and tgc and after hour genrallay gets that kinda cross sexs debates, or what ever you might have...

How about having another place that kinda meets the gentlemans Lounge and the laddies lounge and its called the Lounge

leave after hours the way it is as its funny place

PS please ban politic from the forum

Gummy Panda

oscarBravo wrote: »

I can't see any difference between telling a woman to get back in the kitchen and telling a black man to get back in the cotton fields. In my opinion, both are deeply offensive things to say. There's a strong vibe in AH that one is deeply offensive, while the other is mildly un-funny but otherwise entirely acceptable.

I can't see why, and I wish someone would enlighten me.

Difference of tone and intent?

It's kinda like how the Ladies Lounge was moved under Home Appliances one April Fool's for a laugh. Technically sexist but I don't remember much complaining about it as everyone I think knew it was a light hearted joke.

Only issue is tone is hard to convey in text

oscarBravo

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Difference of tone and intent?

Fair enough: I get the argument that casually sexist remarks in After Hours are usually taken to have a light-hearted tone and no intent to offend.

But we don't allow that defence for racism, so why do we allow it for sexism?

Madam_X

Snowie wrote: »

Being honest I always though after hours was a place for tounge and cheek!

if you cant handle it don't go in... Theres a lot of people in after hours and theres a lot of people who like to discuss gender asoicates from booth laddies lounge and tgc and after hour genrallay gets that kinda cross sexs debates, or what ever you might have...

How about having another place that kinda meets the gentlemans Lounge and the laddies lounge and its called the Lounge

leave after hours the way it is as its funny place

Don't change After Hours.

PS please ban politic from the forum

Do change After Hours...?

JimmyCagney

JimmyCagney wrote: »

Chat soon.

It's a pity Cody, that you have managed to completely sabotage any of the good points you've made by ignoring bans and warnings. I'm sure there were many people who agreed with some of your concerns, but by not respecting the basic rules of the site, your good points have been washed away by the bad.

Honestly. If you care as much as you let on to, you'll realise that you've made your points known and you are diluting any chance of them being taken seriously by continuing to re reg. It really is a shame.

seamus

JimmyCagney wrote: »

Don't be so negative Shakey.

If anything, it shows: resourcefulness

You do remember thanking this post, right?

stovelid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSRm80WzZk

4zn76tysfajdxp

Are you not aware of how you're coming across, Cody? That is to say you look insane.

stovelid

MikeLiteris wrote: »

Still trolling with the red, white and blue eh Stovey.

One trick pony how are you.

Hi.

I'm grand.

Just chugging along, being normal and sane. The usual.

WindSock

Sorry there aren't many Elliminazis around to give you the attention you crave and tell you 'yes you were right all along', Boss. But your timings off. We're all off creaming ourselves in anticipation of Katies fight.

hoodwinked

look my 2 cents for what its worth (im female btw)


Dr. Bollocko posted in the charter thread

What is After Hours?
After hours consists of the type of chat you have with your mates after a few pints at a lock in. You might disagree and argue your side, but if you get rowdy, the barmans gonna kick you out, so keep it civil. Typical subjects are anything thats in the days news, a funny story you heard, and terrible jokes and puns. Sometimes the debate can turn serious, but remember, the barmans watching, and you're gonna wanna come back, so don't get so loud that the neighbours kick up **** and ye're all barred.
This forum has been variously described as a refuge for idiots, the dregs of boards.ie, the best forum on boards and the only forum on boards. As such you may find After Hours quite different to any other boards.ie forums. What's OK here may not fly elsewhere on boards.
In summary, we're better than the other forums.

breaking that down to me personally:

Typical subjects are anything thats in the days news, a funny story you heard, and terrible jokes and puns.

Terrible jokes to me are "get back in the kitchen" "make me a sandwich" "why do women have small feet"...etc

they make me laugh in certain contexts such as in the pub with my male friends.

and i thought thats what after hours was? somewhere you could joke about it, yes if someone said that to me in TLL or elsewhere on boards id take it as offensive, but in after hours i take it as meant in jest i never take anything said there seriously and likewise i don't post seriously in there either!

its nice having somewhere to go mess about at times when im on boards.

This forum has been variously described as a refuge for idiots, the dregs of boards.ie, the best forum on boards and the only forum on boards. As such you may find After Hours quite different to any other boards.ie forums.

^ this to me seems to be the part of the charter most ignored here.

its not a serious forum therefore if you remove the inappropriate jokes (of any variety but in this case gender) you will be left with another typical forum discussing todays news events, it may as well be renamed

topic discussion forum,

maybe one should be set up, where discussions could happen minus the after hours humour? and offended people could be sent there?

or make after hours go the way of ranting and raving and to preserve the forum make it private.

if you are offended by anything said there apply common sense, stay away from that poster or stay away from after hours its not the place for you.

Beruthiel

Noah Incalculable Barometer wrote: »

Are you not aware of how you're coming across, Cody? That is to say you look insane.

I've site banned his rereg a/c and his comments.
If you're reading this OutlawPete, we will continue to delete all comments you make if you rereg again.

Also, you might need to talk to a professional, your obsession with regards to women is bordering on psycho at this stage.

oscarBravo

hoodwinked wrote: »

Terrible jokes to me are "get back in the kitchen" "make me a sandwich" ...

..."git yo black ass back in the cotton field" ...

No?

Wibbs

Beruthiel wrote: »

Also, you might need to talk to a professional, your obsession with regards to women is bordering on psycho at this stage.

I hope B that it's more likely stuck in a brainfart loop based on confirmation bias as in any dealings I've had with the chap outside of this particular blue touchpaper subject he seemed bang on. Being removed from the stimulus will hopefully reset the oul mechanism.

hoodwinked wrote:

i thought thats what after hours was? somewhere you could joke about it, yes if someone said that to me in TLL or elsewhere on boards id take it as offensive, but in after hours i take it as meant in jest i never take anything said there seriously and likewise i don't post seriously in there either!

its nice having somewhere to go mess about at times when im on boards.

Aye, but I honestly don't think the intention is to take that away. It's to remove the pretty clear black and white gobsheenery and boring gobsheenery at that about the place. TBH for me anyway the stuff that grinds my gears the most is the get back in the kitchen shíte. It's just so bloody boring and dumb. That's what's most offensive about it. Hell I sometimes wish for a really well thought out and expressed sexist/racist/whateverist post instead of the usual banal dross. Just so I could reply explaining why they were talking without recourse to their mouth and read others do so. There's not a lot of milage to be had from "make me a sammich woman", other than "GTFO you dribbling onanist", which would find me banned.