Management Company

gillburke

Hi we are having similar problems with our agents but they have refered some residents to debt collection agencies. Basicly they do nothing for us - so we held our own residents meeting - formed a residents association and plan to rn the estate ourselves - Is it legal to do that or do we have to keep on the management company - not the management agents. Again the builder and devoper are the directors of this company and we dont trust him one bit. Thanks

Paulw

Yes, legally there is a management company, and the running of the development is vested in the management company. You are legally obliged to pay your management fees, as per your Lease Contract.

You can go and form your resident's association, etc, but you still must pay your management fees, and be part of the management company.

You should really lobby to remove the sitting directors, elect residents as directors, and then you have control over how your management company is run, and you can select your own management agent to run it.

Mountjoy Mugger

There is now legislation (M.U.D. Act) that you and your neighbours should check out.

There are also similar discussions over in the Accommodation & Property forum.

cookie1977

Has the builder and developer not signed over the running to you yet? Is the coplex full or partially empty?

dudara

Posts split and moved to a new thread in Accommodation & Property

dudara

Lantus

gillburke wrote: »

Hi we are having similar problems with our agents but they have refered some residents to debt collection agencies. Basicly they do nothing for us - so we held our own residents meeting - formed a residents association and plan to rn the estate ourselves - Is it legal to do that or do we have to keep on the management company - not the management agents. Again the builder and devoper are the directors of this company and we dont trust him one bit. Thanks

An RA is an entirely voluntary organisation and while a worthwhile endevour has no real legal standing or power. You cannot purchase block insurance, organise work by contractors on common areas or enforce payment from anyone.

While its a pain its also a harsh reality that the OMC structure is what you really need to engage with.

There is a major difference between an agent and an OMC (which I thinkyou know about from your post, if not read up.)

Since the MUD act April 2011 all OMC's are required to hold a AGM once a year and at that meeting any budgets voted on and approved by the shareholder. Prior to the meeting they need to provide all the budgets, firecerts and other docs as laid out in the MUD act.

Without such approval any fee collection or agent appointment is unlawful.

You really do need your OMC though. PL insurance protects you all from huge claims (which you would all be liable for.) and most solicitors now advise against purchasing any property where the OMC is badly run or in debt.

3 docs you should read., ODCE handbook on OMCs, your articels of association on the cro site and the mud act. good luck!

gillburke

Yes as far as I know he has. We are only a small estate of 30 houses so maybe it's better we just take ict management co.

Quote=cookie1977;79917048]Has the builder and developer not signed over the running to you yet? Is the coplex full or partially empty?[/Quote]

gillburke

Thanks that's an awful lot to take in. I still think we would be better getting this of agent and becoming our esb directors asking builder to step down. Although I think the company is in debt as one supplier told me he has not been paid in 6 months. There was an agm but the figures didn't add up so the budget wasn't voted in. They are just using last years one.

Lantus wrote: »

[Q
UOTE=gillburke;79915866]Hi we are having similar problems with our agents but they have refered some residents to debt collection agencies. Basicly they do nothing for us - so we held our own residents meeting - formed a residents association and plan to rn the estate ourselves - Is it legal to do that or do we have to keep on the management company - not the management agents. Again the builder and devoper are the directors of this company and we dont trust him one bit. Thanks

An RA is an entirely voluntary organisation and while a worthwhile endevour has no real legal standing or power. You cannot purchase block insurance, organise work by contractors on common areas or enforce payment from anyone.

While its a pain its also a harsh reality that the OMC structure is what you really need to engage with.

There is a major difference between an agent and an OMC (which I thinkyou know about from your post, if not read up.)

Since the MUD act April 2011 all OMC's are required to hold a AGM once a year and at that meeting any budgets voted on and approved by the shareholder. Prior to the meeting they need to provide all the budgets, firecerts and other docs as laid out in the MUD act.

Without such approval any fee collection or agent appointment is unlawful.

You really do need your OMC though. PL insurance protects you all from huge claims (which you would all be liable for.) and most solicitors now advise against purchasing any property where the OMC is badly run or in debt.

3 docs you should read., ODCE handbook on OMCs, your articels of association on the cro site and the mud act. good luck![/Quote]

Lantus

30 houses shouldn't have that high a service charge or large green areas to maintain. Not sure why an agent would be doing this work. what other expensive items do you have? gated community perhaps so your responsible for your roads and sewerage?

You can replace directors by either: -

A) asking nicely for them to sign a B10 form which you can get on the cro site (no charge)
writing prior to an agm giving notification
c) hold an EGM at which all members vote out directors and in the new ones.

One key asepct is the issues of the transferrence of the common areas. Make sure that the builder has signed over the deeds to the OMC. If he hasn't the land still belongs to him and you could question why you are paying for its upkeep if it's still his private property. Under the MUD act this should of happened allready.

30 houses gives you an advantage in that it will be much easier to rally support from owners and stay in touch. Our estate is 200+ with many rented out. ouch.

cookie1977

The common areas need to be transferred over first to be able to take full control of the development and set their own rules:
http://www.consumerproperty.ie/your-issues/developers.html

http://www.williamfry.ie/publication-article/multi-unit_developments_transfer_of_common_areas.aspx

Waldorf22

wondering if someone can give some advice? the management company of our four house estate is looking for €1400 per annum per unit for the running of the common areas, namely maintenance of grass (less than third of an acre), lighting (2of5 lights working), agents fees, electricity and insurance. this fee was put in place without any notice or AGM. I have proposed I maintain the grass myself but this was shot down by the directors. I also questioned the need for employers liability when there are no employees in the management company. any advice would be most appreciated? the other 3 houses in estate are rented

Paulw

According to Company law, there must be an AGM each year. Directors must be elected.

As part of the Multi-Units Development Act, a budget must be proposed and approved at an AGM.

I can't comment specifically on the fees.

Employers liability would be needed for any contractors who do work on-site. The cost for having it would be minimal, in the grand scheme of things.

Lantus

Waldorf22 wrote: »

wondering if someone can give some advice? the management company of our four house estate is looking for €1400 per annum per unit for the running of the common areas, namely maintenance of grass (less than third of an acre), lighting (2of5 lights working), agents fees, electricity and insurance. this fee was put in place without any notice or AGM. I have proposed I maintain the grass myself but this was shot down by the directors. I also questioned the need for employers liability when there are no employees in the management company. any advice would be most appreciated? the other 3 houses in estate are rented

So, €5600 for the year for grass cutting some street lights (which possibly may be taken in charge by the local authority??) PL insurance and elec.

The agents fees will likley be the biggest chunk. A private contractor may cut the grass 13-16 times and remove the grass and also apply weed killer around the curb. All costly.

Theres is also the company fees and admin. To be fair and without seeing the figures it doesn't seem too far fetched.

Since the MUD act all members should receive a detailed document with various statements and a full breakdown of the fee. See section 17/18 I think. You need to vote this in with 60% approval so 3 people in your case. Is the developer still the director?

The directors typically would need insurance in case they are sued but this is director insurance no employers liability unless they are mixing it up.

Waldorf22

many thanks to the responses. they make me feel much better. no agm held until i received notification of fees and very vague answers as to how the figure was come to. the developer is still director (2votes as there are two named versus myself.) so I'm in a tight spot. I did get a copy of the insurance details finally and it does specify employers liability. when I questioned them on this, they were not willing to discuss

Lantus

Waldorf22 wrote: »

many thanks to the responses. they make me feel much better. no agm held until i received notification of fees and very vague answers as to how the figure was come to. the developer is still director (2votes as there are two named versus myself.) so I'm in a tight spot. I did get a copy of the insurance details finally and it does specify employers liability. when I questioned them on this, they were not willing to discuss

Each member gets one vote. If a couple own a property only one vote. If you have 4 property's then there are 4 votes. If 2 are directors who also own property each then it will be tied and the chairman gets the casting vote!

This is a very tricky situation. I dont see how you can be nominated as a director or exercise any control with only 4 votes in the development but 2 are evil developers.

Anyway, you are entitled to get detail on the budget and especially the employers liability. An omc should never need this as you quite rightly say it will NEVER have an employee. It may appoint contractors but they have their own insurance.

Every conversation I have had where the developers are in control with people around the country includes massive irregularities surrounding the figures. Including our own to the tune of tens of thousands.

Push and harrass and get the figures you want. make their live difficult. Make sure the AGM documentation supplied is in complete compliance with the MUD act or raise hell. Threaten to report them to the regulator and the ODCE or take it to the press. Cockroaches hate it when a light is shone on them.

Waldorf22

thank you Lantus. I've been reading the boards for weeks now looking for a similar case to mine. I'm so glad I finally took the plunge and posted. I'll update once (if) I get the data

Lantus

as reading material you need 3 things: -

-your articles of association. This will be on the CRO website asuming you know your company name and or company number.

- The full ODCE 2012 handbook on managment company's.

- The MUD act 2011.


I would pull all the relevant sections and formaly write to the director/developer pointing out where they do not comply and are breaking the law. This alo serves as a reference for other bodies as well.

The apartment owners network has some good resources and ask about money has a dedicated managment company section where more detailed questions like are often asked. Try posting there as well.

To be honest I dont why 4 houses need a management company.

Are you 100% sure this company exists? 1/3rd of an acre can easily be managed by a few people clubbing together to get a lawnmower and paying for its upkeep.

Waldorf22

Hi Lantus,

thanks for providing a list of reading materials for me. it's been interesting to say the least. the management company is indeed valid with a listing on the CRO website.

I did some investigations on the insurance. there is indeed employers liability insurance for 13million on the premium and also public liability insurance for 6.5million. These in total come to €1600 per year approx. I've received quotes myself for same land etc. for approx €300 excluding employers liability.

I've already offered to cut the grass myself as I have a lawnmower but this was rejected due to 'insurance reasons'. Having made the suggestion, the fees for 'landscaping' have since increased from €600 to €700.

I have requested an EGM but holding breath.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.