Samantha Brick & Aborting Down's Syndrome babies...

Jimmyhologram

The Kop wrote: »

My problem is though that people think all people with DS are like your relation and none of them have any hope of having a good life,this is simply not true.

It annoys me to hear people talk about it like they have a clue what they are on about,most don't and most are ignorant to what can be achieved nowadays with Early Intervention.
I also understand that people couldn't know unless they are involved with DS in someway,but I think these people should keep their opinions to themselves rather than shoot their mouth off with false 'facts' about DS.

I'm not going to debate the issue about abortion as I have already stated how I feel and I stand by that,as I said my main gripe is the ridiculous posts about DS that are based on an untrue stereotype.

A lot of those people strike me as rather low-grade trolls. People that probably go about with their tails between their legs in everyday life suddenly become self-styled ubermensch of boards.ie, fighting the good social darwinist fight against anything they perceive as parasitical on their take-home. They would do well to research a little before they come on here spouting off abstractions about issues that concern real people.

Cienciano

When my wife was preggers there was a test you could do to see if the baba had downs syndrome. We had the conversation about "what if the baby has DS" which lasted about 10 seconds and we both didn't care if it did or not and didn't even get the test done. That was our decision.
But am I somehow better than someone on here that say they'd abord a child with DS? Well, of course I am!

grindle

SocSocPol wrote: »

Thank you for Boards.ie most evasive post,lots of "what if" and " but what" but no substantive response to my post,in response to which you were quoting, clearly you have little if any understanding of the issues raised in my post.

Most evasive post? I doubt I've ever been evasive.

Smith and Rawls think we should do the best for a society as-is, warts and all - I think we should do what we can to make it the best it could be.
We have differing bull's-eyes for 'Best'.

When somebody invents wart removal cream, either remove the wart, or keep the wart and pay for any further wart assuaging treatments yourself.

Jimmyhologram wrote: »

They would do well to research a little before they come on here spouting off abstractions about issues that concern real people.

I for one have asked for figures relating to how much DS-sufferers (can I call it suffering, or will I be castigated, because it's seems to be a no-go to say anything about the syndrome is negative?) earn vs how much they take.

Google doesn't throw any solid figures up. What percentage of DS-enlightened humans can function as adults without care/aid from family/society?

As for low-level trolls, was Claire Rayner a low-level troll in 1995, or someone with an opinion raising a socio-ethical issue?

The hard facts are that it is costly in terms of human effort, compassion, energy, and finite resources such as money, to care for individuals with handicaps (and to hell with political correctness; there is more to these dilemmas than mere "learning difficulties").

Other children of the families pay the price of less attention and support for themselves and later responsibility for their siblings when their parents are no longer able to care for the weaker child themselves - and we all share that burden. All over the UK, there are people with various handicaps struggling to cope with state-supported institutional life after living with devoted parents until those parents were too old to cope or were dead. People who are not yet parents should ask themselves if they have the right to inflict such burdens on others, however willing they are themselves to take their share of the burden in the beginning. The right to choose implies the duty to choose as unselfishly as possible, surely?

Of course, she was asked to step down as patron of the Down's Syndrome Association after that, because the DSA acts as if this is a race people are trying to extinguish, as opposed to a life-altering (for others), detrimental condition that no-one should have to be put through.
Where, exactly, are the limits of some of the people in this thread?
How vegetative would your child have to be before you went "Holy Christ, this is pretty sad, and cruel... How could I choose this for them?"
I'm not saying they can't live good lives, filled with love, but can they live full human lives? Or can they only (because it is an 'only' situation) live full Down's Syndrome-sufferer lives (even though that will vary wildly between high-functioning types and dribbling incoherent types)?

Personally, if I brought a child into this world that had little function other than to make me think "I didn't get rid of him, and I love him so much" while he salivates on the floor*, unable to process his surroundings, I'd hold little value in who I was.

*I used to work across from a hospital, so we'd get the full gamut of the disabled community in regularly, from the babblingly certifiable to Special Olympics medal-winners, many with Down's Syndrome, one of whom I was able to have more reasoned chats with than any of the "How-Dare-You-Say"-ers in this thread.

Jimmyhologram

grindle wrote: »

As for low-level trolls, was Claire Rayner a low-level troll in 1995, or someone with an opinion raising a socio-ethical issue?

No. The points she raises are good ones, and valid questions. Encouraging people to ask difficult questions is always good practice. Crucially, however, nowhere in the quoted text does she hammer her opinion down people's throats, or assert that they should abort as a matter of duty towards society. Nor does she claim to know more about parental happiness than the parents themselves. What some people are posting here (and what I object to) is not in the spirit of informed questioning, but rather ill-informed and crude dogmatism.

Where, exactly, are the limits of some of the people in this thread?
How vegetative would your child have to be before you went "Holy Christ, this is pretty sad, and cruel... How could I choose this for them?"
I'm not saying they can't live good lives, filled with love, but can they live full human lives? Or can they only (because it is an 'only' situation) live full Down's Syndrome-sufferer lives (even though that will vary wildly between high-functioning types and dribbling incoherent types)?

Ha! The spectrum you describe could just as easily be applied to the general population, among which we have a many blathering idiots, scroungers, self-obsessives, neurotics, chronic depressives, people who don't know how to love, people who rape, murder and steal. We have significant numbers of people who have no interest in working, and massive problems with adult literacy.

What is your definition of "full human life"? My guess is that any reasonable definition that excludes people with DS would also exclude more than half of the general population.

Ah_Yeah

I think that this kind of decision will ever only be made at the exact moment you find out. Just like with an unplanned pregnancy, a lot of people say they would 100% not keep the baby, but no one ever knows until they themselves are put into that situation.

Tbh, it's my child at the end of the day, and I'd love it no matter what. I have worked with people with DS and the majority of them are more than capable of taking care of themselves. They are such happy individuals, and I get such great joy from spending time with them. They appreciate the little things in life that we just look past.

However, I am pro-choice, and fully believe that everyone should be allowed to make their own decisions on a termination, in any situation, be that unplanned pregnancy or finding out the child will have DS. That's their choice, their life, and not my place to judge (or be concerned about) at all.

christina_x

g'em wrote: »

In related news a Down Syndrome baby has just become a model for a Spanish swimwear company. She's only flipping gorgeous

http://aww.ninemsn.com.au/style/fashion/8504787/down-syndrome-baby-becomes-swimwear-model

Awwwwh! She is way too cute!!

Morag

I wish someone would abort Samantha Brick's contract for writing such crap articles.

im invisible

christina_x wrote: »

Awwwwh! She is way too young!!

..

OldNotWIse

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Post of the Week!

Agree! What a great way to start the day, reading a post like this, rather than the usual nit-pickery, nonsensical, one-upmanship drivel that we see on boards

grindle

Ha! The spectrum you describe could just as easily be applied to the general population, among which we have a many blathering idiots, scroungers, self-obsessives, neurotics, chronic depressives, people who don't know how to love, people who rape, murder and steal. We have significant numbers of people who have no interest in working, and massive problems with adult literacy.

What is your definition of "full human life"? My guess is that any reasonable definition that excludes people with DS would also exclude more than half of the general population.

Ha! I know it would.

It would definitely exclude more than half the general population. It's why fascist ideological states shouldn't exist (which is what any person's inner singular vision would amount to).

As I've said, I'm fairly happy living within a democracy, we're doing a pretty good job of balancing it so the least amount of people feel voiceless.
It's natural for everyone to want the scales to tip more in their favour, and for the extremes to pop out (some crying "Murder! Shame!", others crying "Euthanise! Abort!"), it's the nature of any forum.

Zulu

Sharrow wrote: »

I wish someone would abort Samantha Brick's contract for writing such crap articles.

That's one abortion that would make me reconsider my position.

HenrySheff

Hi

I'm not a regular member here and only happened across this thread by chance when I was doing some research.
When I read through the thread I was compelled to join.

I have no experience with people with Down Syndrome and my image of them was always the stereotypical view of them.
This was until a poster on another forum I use from time to time started a thread about his new born son who was diagnosed with Down Syndrome at birth.

The thread left a lasting impression with me to the extent I have now signed up to become a volunteer for the Special Olympics.

The guy wrote a very moving piece of the first 3 months of his life with a new born with Down Syndrome,it is searingly honest and he doesn't sugar coat how he felt and still feels.

The one thing I got from it though is the hope he had for his son and you could tell by the end of the story that he was coming around to the realization that maybe things won't be as bad as he first thought and with a little bit of info and knowledge on Down Syndrome a lot of the old stereotypes are forgotten and you realise that many of the stereotypes aren't in fact true.

Anyways I'm not sure of the rules here about posting links to other forums but I am going to give you the link at the end of this post.
It is really worth reading the mans post and all the other 100 or so posts afterwards from the other board members who were moved to share their own stories.As I said it is not all about how Down Syndrome is great and how life is so good,he is honest about his negative feelings just as much as he has some hope for the future.
Please read if you get a chance.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=21106.0

The Kop

HenrySheff wrote: »

Hi

I'm not a regular member here and only happened across this thread by chance when I was doing some research.
When I read through the thread I was compelled to join.

I have no experience with people with Down Syndrome and my image of them was always the stereotypical view of them.
This was until a poster on another forum I use from time to time started a thread about his new born son who was diagnosed with Down Syndrome at birth.

The thread left a lasting impression with me to the extent I have now signed up to become a volunteer for the Special Olympics.

The guy wrote a very moving piece of the first 3 months of his life with a new born with Down Syndrome,it is searingly honest and he doesn't sugar coat how he felt and still feels.

The one thing I got from it though is the hope he had for his son and you could tell by the end of the story that he was coming around to the realization that maybe things won't be as bad as he first thought and with a little bit of info and knowledge on Down Syndrome a lot of the old stereotypes are forgotten and you realise that many of the stereotypes aren't in fact true.

Anyways I'm not sure of the rules here about posting links to other forums but I am going to give you the link at the end of this post.
It is really worth reading the mans post and all the other 100 or so posts afterwards from the other board members who were moved to share their own stories.As I said it is not all about how Down Syndrome is great and how life is so good,he is honest about his negative feelings just as much as he has some hope for the future.
Please read if you get a chance.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=21106.0

Thanks for sharing that HenrySheff.

You are right that is one hell of a piece of writing from that poster laoislad.
It is so raw,honest,hearbreaking and hopeful all at once.
I'm actually compelled myself to sign up to that forum to thank him and offer him advice if he needed it,I am 20+ years into the journey he is only about 8 months now.

The thing I really noticed from the thread though was the amount of other posters who told their story,and what struck me was that every single one of them who had a cousin,brother or sister with Down Syndrome all said how much better their lives were for having them in their lives.
One poster even remarked his brother with Down Syndrome was the best thing that ever happened his family because of what it taught him about life.
Hearing this is so refreshing and while of course it can't be true in all cases I believe it is in the vast majority of cases.
It certainly makes a mockery of the 'experts' on here who have said siblings will grow to resent their special needs brother/sister.
I guess the real experts are not the medical professionals or the internet warriors,the real experts are the people who have lived and are still living with it in their lives.

Thanks again for sharing and I really think I will sign up to that forum to get in contact with the OP.

Hannibal Smith

I had an 11 week scan on my second son and radiographer kept focusing on one point of the scan, she called 2 of her colleagues in to have a look at the screen, my heart was in my mouth I didn't know what was going on. She told me that he seemed to have a larger than normal nuchal fold (skin at the back of the neck) and that's a possible sign of down syndrome. I nearly died. She made the baby move and do all sorts of twists and turns to try and get a proper look, called the registrar to have a look and by the time they left they had told me that all was well. It was just a small monitor and the 20 week scan would show any 'abnormalities'.

I spent the next 10 weeks googling images of baby scans with down syndrome, trying to measure my photo up against those with downs and trying to diagnose myself, I measured noses, nuchal folds, spines, everything. I was full sure they had just pawned me off and told me not to worry, because what else would the do?! Anyhow it turned out it was just the doctor being over the top, my son is perfectly fine.

During the time however, myself and my husband had the conversation about what we would do if the doctor was right. Would we have an abortion, he was for it, I was middling to against. We already had a 2 year old, how could we introduce a child with down syndrome into the mix. I also had a miscarriage 2 months before and couldn't face losing another child. Yes there are babies born with the condition that go on to do amazing things, but there are also those that are more severely effected. I don't know how they measure how effected or not your baby will be?

My dad works with children with learning difficulties of all kinds, and in the back of my mind I knew that there were services and training sytems out there that could make their lives so much better.

I think the whole segregation of children for education purposes, between those with learning difficulties and those without has a huge social impact. We would all be far more tolerant and acceptant of people who were different. Half the time people don't know what to say to a person with downs, they talk over them, or to the accompanying adult. If we knew personally a child or person with downs abortion probably wouldn't even have crossed our minds, but it did.

UpCork

It is easy for someone, like me, who doesn't have children to sit here and say it is wrong etc. The old saying 'Don't judge me until you've walked a mile in my shoes' springs to mind. However, I don't agree with abortion per se - to me life is life and should be respected. That is just my own personal opinion.

In relation to aborting a baby becuase you know it has Down's Syndrome - I don't agree with that. There are plenty of pregnancies that proceed as they should with no abnormalities etc shown up in scans etc and when that babies are born it is found that they have a particular disability, disorder or disease.

I suppose I look at it in this way because I have an extended family member with a wide range of intellectual disabilities. He doesn't have a particular named sydrome, just what the doctor's refer to as 'a mixed bag of different things. His mother's pregnancy was normal, all scans were fine etc. It was something that went 'wrong' when he was born that cuased his disability - perhaps a stroke etc. When he was born the outlook was extremely grim - his Mother was told he may never walk or talk. Almost a quarter of a century down the line and my God how wrong those doctors were - this boy has defied all the odds and runs rings around the rest of us. Yes mentally he is about 5 and he cannot read and write, but he is so loving, caring and such a special person in all our lives.

I have often thought what if these disabilities has been present whilst he was in his Mother's womb and if she had made such a decision? The only answer I can come up with is what our lives would be lacking. Yes it has been tough going and his Mother worries about the future, when she is gone etc.

It is a tough one, but that's just my 2 cents worth

General Relativity

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

if you agree that abortion isn't a problem then you've no business giving out to anybody for the reason they had an abortion, whether it's because it was at disk of having down syndrome, being female or having brown eyes.

if it's not a human life it's nnot a human life.

Bollox. Utter bollox. There's a huge difference between; getting pregnant and not being ready/ not wanting a baby, and trying for a child, realising it has down syndrome and aborting it.

If you can't see a difference; that's scary tbh.

UpCork

It is easy for someone, like me, who doesn't have children to sit here and say it is wrong etc. The old saying 'Don't judge me until you've walked a mile in my shoes' springs to mind. However, I don't agree with abortion per se - to me life is life and should be respected. That is just my own personal opinion.

In relation to aborting a baby becuase you know it has Down's Syndrome - I don't agree with that. There are plenty of pregnancies that proceed as they should with no abnormalities etc shown up in scans etc and when that babies are born it is found that they have a particular disability, disorder or disease.

I suppose I look at it in this way because I have an extended family member with a wide range of intellectual disabilities. He doesn't have a particular named sydrome, just what the doctor's refer to as 'a mixed bag of different things. His mother's pregnancy was normal, all scans were fine etc. It was something that went 'wrong' when he was born that cuased his disability - perhaps a stroke etc. When he was born the outlook was extremely grim - his Mother was told he may never walk or talk. Almost a quarter of a century down the line and my God how wrong those doctors were - this boy has defied all the odds and runs rings around the rest of us. Yes mentally he is about 5 and he cannot read and write, but he is so loving, caring and such a special person in all our lives.

I have often thought what if these disabilities has been present whilst he was in his Mother's womb and if she had made such a decision? The only answer I can come up with is what our lives would be lacking. Yes it has been tough going and his Mother worries about the future, when she is gone etc.

It is a tough one, but that's just my 2 cents worth

Scioch

General Relativity wrote: »

Bollox. Utter bollox. There's a huge difference between; getting pregnant and not being ready/ not wanting a baby, and trying for a child, realising it has down syndrome and aborting it.

If you can't see a difference; that's scary tbh.

So its fine if you dont want the child at all but wrong if you dont want a child for a particular reason ? How does what work ? How does planning in advance make any difference to the act of termination or the reasoning behind it ?

It doest, a planned foetus is no different than an unplanned foetus. A person either has the ability to make the decision to terminate or they dont. It cant change based on what you think of the person or why they are making the decision.

genericguy

General Relativity wrote: »

Bollox. Utter bollox. There's a huge difference between; getting pregnant and not being ready/ not wanting a baby, and trying for a child, realising it has down syndrome and aborting it.

If you can't see a difference; that's scary tbh.

No difference. I don't want a child. I especially don't want a disabled child. I don't see the issue, I'd respect my view much more than those people who tend to be 'delighted' with the disabled children they ditch in 24/7 care establishments.

tiny_penguin

Its a tough subject. But the way I see it is this. If you ask any of the people who have had children with DS or who have said they would not abort a DS child if they were pregnant and they had a choice, they could choose to have a child with DS or they could choose to have one without - their choice would always be without. If when pregnant with a baby with DS there was an option, an injection lets say, they could cure the unborn baby of the DS and was totally safe for both them and the baby of course they would choose to take it. As wonderful as some children and adults with DS are, and how some have fantastic lives and enrich the lives of others - it would never be a choice you would make for you unborn child. Obviously it happens, sometimes it can be detected early and others not. And when it happens you have to do the best you can for your child and for your whole family. And some people feel that abortion is the best option for them. The only real difference between the options I outlined above and abortion is what your opinions on abortion are. And in most countries where abortion is a legal option - this is a perfectly valid reason for going ahead with one.

I know plenty of people with DS, most of them are wonderful people and I am very happy to know them. But for those with more severe cases their lives are more limited. I personally don't think I would make the choice to abort in this case, but for more severe disabilities then it would be something that would most likely be discussed. And even though know I dont think I would choose abortion in the case of a child with DS - I fully believe you never truly know what you would do until you are faced with the situation. Regardless of this i do think it is choice that faces many people in all walks of life, and i don't think its my place to judge the choice.

round tower huntsman

never. i'd an uncle who was ds. he'd a good and long life. he was loved and he had a full and varied life. though im not against abortion for reasons like that, its a personal decision, that both parents should make. there's a lot worse conditions a child could be born with imo.