Samantha Brick & Aborting Down's Syndrome babies...

jay-me

Canis Lupus wrote: »

No, like Bluewolf said it's JUST as defining that your parents had sex which in turn conceived you, rather than your mother needing to 'wash her hair' at that moment in time.

The point is not whether brick washes her hair on a given day and has her IVF on a different one the point is if she see's that the result of her IVF is a DS baby then she will abort it! Not an element of chance in that it is a predefined choice by her!

MagicMarker

jay-me wrote: »

The point is not whether brick washes her hair on a given day and has her IVF on a different one the point is if she see's that the result of her IVF is a DS baby then she will abort it! Not an element of chance in that it is a predefined choice by her!

I haven't read the article as it's blocked in work, but did she say what her choice would be? I don't think she did.

Eve_Dublin

syndeyfife wrote: »

Pregnancy lasts 40 weeks so no not really.

If youre private, you'd get a scan at 14 weeks maybe for dating purposes, it may be detected then, but thats a maybe.

20 weeks is late in the pregnancy. Most countries wouldn't allow an abortion at this stage.

SusieBlue

I would continue a pregnancy with a child with DS, or any other disability, as I would a pregnancy with a healthy baby.

I can't imagine my feelings changing for my baby just cause of a disability. DS screening can only be done accurately late in pregnancy - If I had accepted my pregnancy, and wanted my baby, I don't see how it could change things so far along. It would still be the same baby I had accepted and wanted and loved all along.

Abortion might be the right choice for other people, but it would never be the right choice for me. Each to their own, just not something I would do personally.

OldNotWIse

g'em wrote: »

Genuine question for the people who have (fairly bravely and amazingly) said that they would abort a Down's Syndrome baby:

Have you ever known or cared for or loved a person with Down's Syndrome? A more loving, kind, full-of-life person you could not wish to meet. They have an attitude and take on life that I really don't think non-Down's individuals can have. At one time I think I would have seen a Down's baby as being a burden, a life sentence and someone that I would tie me down until my later years. But with my hand on my heart I have never experienced anything but joy with a child or adult with Down's. They have all been wonderful.

The only 'burden' in having a child with Down's is the stigma attached to them.

In related news a Down Syndrome baby has just become a model for a Spanish swimwear company. She's only flipping gorgeous

http://aww.ninemsn.com.au/style/fashion/8504787/down-syndrome-baby-becomes-swimwear-model

Aw so beautiful

mauzo

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

20 weeks is late in the pregnancy. Most countries wouldn't allow an abortion at this stage.

Well then you'll have to google it because I genuinely havent a clue. Im training to be a midwife in a country that doesnt allow abortion lol

kfallon

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I would continue a pregnancy with a child with DS, or any other disability, as I would a pregnancy with a healthy baby.

I can't imagine my feelings changing for my baby just cause of a disability. DS screening can only be done accurately late in pregnancy - If I had accepted my pregnancy, and wanted my baby, I don't see how it could change things so far along. It would still be the same baby I had accepted and wanted and loved all along.

Abortion might be the right choice for other people, but it would never be the right choice for me. Each to their own, just not something I would do personally.

Children born with a disability, they just need a bit more loving, that's all

stovelid

I would think a positive result for a profound disability is an acceptable excuse for termination.

It would be for me anyway.

Not so sure how I feel about abortion of healthy pregnancies myself: I don't think I could get with the termination of a healthy pregnancy (at my stage in life and with a long-term partner) but I've no problem with women exercising their own choice in the matter.

OldNotWIse

Wonder if my parents knew in advance that I would be bald for the first four years, have sticking out (ish) ears, one foot bigger than the other and be a big dirty lesbian would they have aborted me??? Not being funny, but where do we draw the line? When we open the door called "lets abort the baby because it has x,y or z wrong with it"...how far does it go?

stovelid

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Wonder if my parents knew in advance that I would be bald for the first four years, have sticking out (ish) ears, one foot bigger than the other and be a big dirty lesbian would they have aborted me??? Not being funny, but where do we draw the line? When we open the door called "lets abort the baby because it has x,y or z wrong with it"...how far does it go?

As far as you want: it being your own choice.

OldNotWIse

stovelid wrote: »

As far as you want: it being your own choice.

Even to the point of aborting based on how the child will look? I find that quite scary tbh.

IrishAm

Abortion is murder. Make up all the excuses and arguments you want. Still murder.

MagicMarker

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Even to the point of aborting based on how the child will look? I find that quite scary tbh.

Considering you usually won't know what the child will look like until after you give birth, then I think it's unlikely.

SusieBlue

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

20 weeks is late in the pregnancy. Most countries wouldn't allow an abortion at this stage.

You can get an abortion in the UK up to 24 weeks.

Your dating scan is at 12 weeks, and your anamoly scan at 20 weeks. They can also determine the gender at the 20 week scan too, if baby is cooperating.

Pretty sure the amino is done at about 24-25 weeks, at least in my hospital it was done around then. They give you a statistic, ie. 1/4000 chance the baby will have DS or whatever.

The only worry if the second figure is less than 100, ie. 1/100 or 1/60, at that stage they'll offer further screening.

This is to the best of my knowledge, I could be wrong!

SusieBlue

Double post

IrishAm

kfallon wrote: »

Children born with a disability, they just need a bit more loving, that's all

That's it. Any DS kids I've come into contact with are pretty amazing kids.

Napper Hawkins

jay-me wrote: »

Pity Einstein was aborted.. Oh wait...

Hooray! A Jewish scientist was alive at some point! Meanwhile, so too would 6 million Jews (probably) if Adolf hadn't made it past that vagina!
Abortion could have prevented ww3!

On topic, personally can't stand the sight of them though ds people can be good craic. Not for me, thanks.

I remember doing a weeks community service in a local home for the handicapped as part of transition year, I remember wondering aloud why the vast majority of the inmates (all severely mentally disabled to various degrees, downs, other conditions etc.) never seemed to have anyone visiting them. I was told quite simply that most of the families just didn't want to know. Patients pretty much dumped there and forgotten about. Great stuff I thought. I asked why would these families go through with having a mentally challenged baby if they were just gonna dump them here? Seems pretty ****ed up imo. I got a one word answer from the member of staff, "religion" she said. From that moment on I felt a new found hatred for this country that has yet to subside.

Cienciano

I hope for the sake of the child that the IVF doesn't work.

stovelid

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Even to the point of aborting based on how the child will look? I find that quite scary tbh.

Quit with the emotional reductionism. You know what I mean.

Piste

blacklilly wrote: »

You either agree with abortion or you don't, regardless of circumstances of conception.

That's just not true at all. Across the pro-choice belief there is a whole spectrum of opinions. Some people believe in abortion only if the woman's life is at risk, some believe in it if a woman has been raped, some believe in it if a woman is at risk of suicide, some believe in it if the baby has severe disabilities, some believe in it if the mother can't look after the baby, some believe in it if the baby is the "wrong" gender.

It's not just Abortion Good-vs-Abortion Bad.

Brain Stroking

I dont agree with the people here saying "Look, you either agree with abortion or you dont". That's complete crap and borne only of a bias against abortion. There are grey areas in life and this is one of them.
A DS child may be all the great things that those who love them say. But the fact of the matter is that the child is not corpus mentis and will never be. They will never be able to go out and fend completely on their own and will always be dependant. It doesnt matter what they look like.
I've never had to consider such an issue but it isnt as black and white as it is made out to be

Real Life

Im all for abortion, i think the woman should have the right to decide what she wants to do.

girl in the striped socks

Yes I would give an abortion serious consideration if I was expecting a baby with severe disabilities.
At the end of the day I will grow old & die. Who takes care of the child/ adult then? Expect other siblings to care for them? Put them into care because no one else is willing to take them on?
I don't think so.
Call me selfish but my reasons would be more considerate of the disabled child rather than myself.
Obviously anyone who has a disabled child loves them & wants the best for them but they honestly wish that the child wasn't disabled. Not for their sake, but for the child's.
And I have to say that there is nothing more annoying than people paying more attention to a child or being overly smiley & friendly because they have a disability.
Anyway, it's a decision I hope I never have to make.

Real Life

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Yes I would give an abortion serious consideration if I was expecting a baby with severe disabilities.
At the end of the day I will grow old & die. Who takes care of the child/ adult then? Expect other siblings to care for them? Put them into care because no one else is willing to take them on?
I don't think so.
Call me selfish but my reasons would be more considerate of the disabled child rather than myself.
Obviously anyone who has a disabled child loves them & wants the best for them but they honestly wish that the child wasn't disabled. Not for their sake, but for the child's.
And I have to say that there is nothing more annoying than people paying more attention to a child or being overly smiley & friendly because they have a disability.
Anyway, it's a decision I hope I never have to make.

totally agree

ScumLord

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Wonder if my parents knew in advance that I would be bald for the first four years, have sticking out (ish) ears, one foot bigger than the other and be a big dirty lesbian would they have aborted me???

Well you know them better than us, do you think they would have aborted you if they found a time machine and could look into the future and see how you live today.

Not being funny, but where do we draw the line? When we open the door called "lets abort the baby because it has x,y or z wrong with it"...how far does it go?

We're talking about pretty fundamental disabilities here, there's very little else they can even test for other than major things like this. They can't know if you'll be gay, or what colour your hair will be, or how you'll look in 16 years when your fully developed, or even if you'll have x, y or z.

Boskowski

People coming out saying I know someone with DS and he/she is so lovely and mixing that into the discussion are really not getting the point. The point is you are making that decision at a point where he/she is not an actual person yet.
Then they are saying but would you not ever think about the person it might have become? Well I might but I may also think about the person that never came about because I chose to keep the DS foetus instead That child who would have had a chance at playing outside and not being spoon fed age 17 (chill I'm exaggerating).
It's all about what ifs and dunnos and there is no easy and no right decision. It's just a horrible decision to be faced with either way.
I dont understand why some get all high and mighty. The woman seems a tool but the question she rises is a very valid one.

So once a kid is healthy it's fine to abort it because of how it would affect the parent's life but if it's unhealthy it's not ok to take into account the possible massive extra impact such disabilities could have. Sounds about right.

speedboatchase

If you're for abortion - as I am - then you don't get to pick and choose. If someone wants to make the decision for this decision, it's nobody else's business. If my girlfriend and I were expecting and we discovered that the baby had Down's Syndrome, I don't know what our decision would be but we would definitely give everything serious consideration.

davet82

your 3 year old falls off a bike and his injuries result in him being disabled (lets pretend for a second its legal to euthanize a child) would you go ahead with it?

For all the people who said they would terminate a disabled child.

davet82

davet82 wrote: »

your 3 year old falls off a bike and his injuries result in him being disabled (lets pretend for a second its legal to euthanize a child) would you go ahead with it?

For all the people who said they would terminate a disabled child.

It's hardly a fair comparison is it?

SocSocPol

syndeyfife wrote: »

Well then you'll have to google it because I genuinely havent a clue. Im training to be a midwife in a country that doesnt allow abortion lol

Technically abortion is legal in Ireland under the X Case ruling by the Supreme Court. Sadly the courts ruling and that of the European Court have yet to be legislated for by our cowardly politicans, but as things stand abortion is legal in Ireland under certain circumstances.

davet82

RVP 11 wrote: »

It's hardly a fair comparison is it?

not really to be fair but there are a few posts saying its for the childs sake they would abort because if its disabilities

its not a great comparison tbh as depends if you view a fetus as a child or just a bundle of cells i guess.

Guy:Incognito

IrishAm wrote: »

Abortion is murder. Make up all the excuses and arguments you want. Still murder.

In your opinion.

Yamanoto

IrishAm wrote: »

Abortion is murder. Make up all the excuses and arguments you want. Still murder.

I may be mistaken, but aren't you a supporter of the Provisional IRA?

Funny old world.

jessiejam

I don't think I could ever abort I really don't think I could live with it.

I do believe it takes a very special and selfless person to care for a child with a disability.

I don't however agree with termination after 12 weeks. That to me is a human being and unless there is a life of death issue for either the mother or the child, it shouldn't be allowed.

Just my opinion. But in all fairness what woman do you know doesn't realise she is pregnant (wanted or not) before then.

Surely 12 weeks is enough time to make up your mind.

Yamanoto

Yamanoto wrote: »

I may be mistaken, but aren't you a supporter of the Provisional IRA?

Funny old world.

Classic.:pac:

mauzo

jessiejam wrote: »

I don't think I could ever abort I really don't think I could live with it.

I do believe it takes a very special and selfless person to care for a child with a disability.

I don't however agree with termination after 12 weeks. That to me is a human being and unless there is a life of death issue for either the mother or the child, it shouldn't be allowed.

Just my opinion. But in all fairness what woman do you know doesn't realise she is pregnant (wanted or not) before then.

Surely 12 weeks is enough time to make up your mind.

I didnt realise i was pregnant until I was 11 weeks gone

SerialComplaint

IrishAm wrote: »

That's it. Any DS kids I've come into contact with are pretty amazing kids.

I disagree. They're just like other kids. Some are amazing. Some are annoying. Some are obnoxious. Some are beautiful. They're just like other kids. They're not heroes or angels. They're just kids with a particular genetic condition.

Napper Hawkins wrote: »

I remember doing a weeks community service in a local home for the handicapped as part of transition year, I remember wondering aloud why the vast majority of the inmates (all severely mentally disabled to various degrees, downs, other conditions etc.) never seemed to have anyone visiting them.

That's an interesting question all right. But the more important question is why are these people with disabilities living in a 'home for the handicapped' segregated from the rest of society. Why aren't they living in a house, or an apartment - getting the support they need to live their own life? That's the key question.

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Yes I would give an abortion serious consideration if I was expecting a baby with severe disabilities.
At the end of the day I will grow old & die. Who takes care of the child/ adult then? Expect other siblings to care for them? Put them into care because no one else is willing to take them on?
I don't think so.
Call me selfish but my reasons would be more considerate of the disabled child rather than myself.
Obviously anyone who has a disabled child loves them & wants the best for them but they honestly wish that the child wasn't disabled. Not for their sake, but for the child's.
And I have to say that there is nothing more annoying than people paying more attention to a child or being overly smiley & friendly because they have a disability.
Anyway, it's a decision I hope I never have to make.

The 'who will take care of the question' doesn't just apply to kids with disabilities. It applies to kids with broken marriages, and kids with negative equity, and kids with depression, and kids with unhealthy relationships.

Many people with disabilities can lead fulfilling independent lives of their own choosing with a small bit of support.

jessiejam

syndeyfife wrote: »

I didnt realise i was pregnant until I was 11 weeks gone

Should have said the majority. I knew at 5 weeks on both my kids. Just don't think its fair that someone at 24 weeks can have an abortion. For whatever reason.

mattjack

syndeyfife wrote: »

I didnt realise i was pregnant until I was 11 weeks gone

I didn't know you were a lady person.

mauzo

jessiejam wrote: »

Should have said the majority. I knew at 5 weeks on both my kids. Just don't think its fair that someone at 24 weeks can have an abortion. For whatever reason.

Jesus dont take my word on that, I genuinely havent a clue!!

mauzo

mattjack wrote: »

I didn't know you were a lady person.

Pic not give it away no?

girl in the striped socks

SerialComplaint wrote: »

IrishAm wrote: »

That's it. Any DS kids I've come into contact with are pretty amazing kids.

I disagree. They're just like other kids. Some are amazing. Some are annoying. Some are obnoxious. Some are beautiful. They're just like other kids. They're not heroes or angels. They're just kids with a particular genetic condition.

Napper Hawkins wrote: »

I remember doing a weeks community service in a local home for the handicapped as part of transition year, I remember wondering aloud why the vast majority of the inmates (all severely mentally disabled to various degrees, downs, other conditions etc.) never seemed to have anyone visiting them.

That's an interesting question all right. But the more important question is why are these people with disabilities living in a 'home for the handicapped' segregated from the rest of society. Why aren't they living in a house, or an apartment - getting the support they need to live their own life? That's the key question.

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Yes I would give an abortion serious consideration if I was expecting a baby with severe disabilities.
At the end of the day I will grow old & die. Who takes care of the child/ adult then? Expect other siblings to care for them? Put them into care because no one else is willing to take them on?
I don't think so.
Call me selfish but my reasons would be more considerate of the disabled child rather than myself.
Obviously anyone who has a disabled child loves them & wants the best for them but they honestly wish that the child wasn't disabled. Not for their sake, but for the child's.
And I have to say that there is nothing more annoying than people paying more attention to a child or being overly smiley & friendly because they have a disability.
Anyway, it's a decision I hope I never have to make.

The 'who will take care of the question' doesn't just apply to kids with disabilities. It applies to kids with broken marriages, and kids with negative equity, and kids with depression, and kids with unhealthy relationships.

Many people with disabilities can lead fulfilling independent lives of their own choosing with a small bit of support.

Massive difference in what you listed compared to someone who maybe can't cook for themselves or see the possible danger in befriending strangers.

SerialComplaint

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Massive difference in what you listed compared to someone who maybe can't cook for themselves or see the possible danger in befriending strangers.

Cooking and dealing with strangers are very easily managed - either with visiting services, or just using take-aways, or with personal assistance services, or using technology - including controlled remote access and monitoring.

OldNotWIse

stovelid wrote: »

Quit with the emotional reductionism. You know what I mean.

Er...ok :rolleyes:

It's a question (is it ok for people to abort their unborn based on, for example, appearances?) and a statement of my opinion (that I do not like the idea of above)

So no, not "emotional reductionism" - a question and an opinion. Is that ok with you????

girl in the striped socks

SerialComplaint wrote: »

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Massive difference in what you listed compared to someone who maybe can't cook for themselves or see the possible danger in befriending strangers.

Cooking and dealing with strangers are very easily managed - either with visiting services, or just using take-aways, or with personal assistance services, or using technology - including controlled remote access and monitoring.

Your idea of independent living is sounding more like an institution.

davet82

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Your idea of independent living is sounding more like an institution.

sounds more like what they do with old people tbh

kraggy

blacklilly wrote: »

xeiramnnax wrote: »

I 100% agree with a couple's choice to end a pregnancy. Particularly unwanted pregnancies, or where parents are in no way capable of providing a child with a decent future.

However, to want a child badly enough to go through the ordeal of IVF to only go and abort a baby because it has DS I do not agree with. I know many people who live long/fulfilling lives with DS. It is not a black and white issue of course, but I think it is very selfish to abort a baby because it is not the "ideal" after longing for a baby for so long.

You either agree with abortion or you don't, regardless of circumstances of conception.
People choose to abort the unborn for reasons such as cleft palets, downs, spina bifida, disfigurements etc.

By your logic you believe women who concived naturally have the right to abort but the women who went through IVF does not have the right to abort if it is found the unborn has downs.
That doesnt really make sense. You are attributing more rights to the women who was able to conceive naturally.

So someone who wants to abort because it's a girl when they wanted a boy should have as much a right as someone who was raped and got pregnant as a result?

CatFromHue

I don't know, I really don't.

starbelgrade

g'em wrote: »

Genuine question for the people who have (fairly bravely and amazingly) said that they would abort a Down's Syndrome baby:

Have you ever known or cared for or loved a person with Down's Syndrome? A more loving, kind, full-of-life person you could not wish to meet. They have an attitude and take on life that I really don't think non-Down's individuals can have. At one time I think I would have seen a Down's baby as being a burden, a life sentence and someone that I would tie me down until my later years. But with my hand on my heart I have never experienced anything but joy with a child or adult with Down's. They have all been wonderful.

The only 'burden' in having a child with Down's is the stigma attached to them.

In related news a Down Syndrome baby has just become a model for a Spanish swimwear company. She's only flipping gorgeous

http://aww.ninemsn.com.au/style/fashion/8504787/down-syndrome-baby-becomes-swimwear-model

While you've had nothing but good experiences, you can't apply your own experiences to everyone else's lives.

Women choose to have abortions for many reasons but usually the ultimate driving factor behind the choice is that they feel that they will not be able to give the child the standard of life that they deserve to have.

This would - I imagine - apply even more so to someone who knows their child will be born Down Syndrome. It's highly disingenuous to suggest that the only burden of having a DS child is the "stigma". In fact, I would suggest that this is probably the least burdening thought when you take into account the additional effort & resources it takes to raise a child with DS.

You can flash a picture of a DS child modelling swimwear in Spain as an argument against people who decide not to carry a DS child full term, but you could easily do the same with any non-DS child model in an argument against anyone who chooses to have an abortion.