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Samantha Brick & Aborting Down's Syndrome babies...

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    #212
    darced
    Registered Users Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


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    #213
    Bobsammy
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭Bobsammy


    Ms.M wrote: »
    Fair enough, to each their own but nobody can tell you that with certainty. I'm not implying that everybody who'd consider aborting a DS baby would do it for "I just couldn't cope" reasons, but for those that do, for those that think they wouldn't be able to cope with anything but a high-functioning perfect bambino, they should consider whether conceiving in the fist place is worth the risk. They're very likely to be disappointed.

    DS isn't genetic at all. It's just a chromosomal abnormality. There is the lack of family-planning in old Catholic Ireland; people having kids when they were probably too old to. The risk increases with the age of the mother.

    Down Syndrome CAN be hereditary, although it is a tiny minority. Approximately 1% of translocation trisomies are inherited.
    However as you say most is caused by a chromosomal abnormality that cannot be predicted although the risk increases with age. That's not to say it can't happen to a younger mum, my mother in law had a child with Down Syndrome (Trisomy 21 -non hereditary) at 23.


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    #214
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    As a father of a 3 year old with DS I can hand on heart say we love him immensely and we did have that discussion when we found out

    Most adults that you see with DS have not had the education and early intervention that DS babies get these days as most of it was not understood, Imagine any person who does not get educated properly and how they would be, With this in mind it's less scary as you realise they have far more potential than you may have thought

    I would not berate anyone for considering it as it is a scary thing to envision, But when you find out more and see the potentials then you may look at it differently, For us we made the right choice and he is great just like my other little fella who is not DS

    Everyone to there own, I'm pro choice but personally I don't think its a great reason and most people who educate themselves on the matter will not make terminate.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #215
    The Very Hungry Catterpillar
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭The Very Hungry Catterpillar


    darced wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Pleased to meet you - I have no regrets nor am I haunted. Will tell you my story any time, not everyone's story is "shocking".:)


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    #216
    Rabidlamb
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Rabidlamb


    She's a self publicising wind up merchant, fair dues to her.
    Like Jordan but with smaller tits.
    Every daytime talk show are mad to get her on = $$$$$


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    #217
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    The Very Hungry Catterpillar wrote: »
    Pleased to meet you - I have no regrets nor am I haunted. Will tell you my story any time, not everyone's story is "shocking".:)

    I think for pro lifers, the shock factor comes from the fact that an abortion has taken place, it is not determined by how the "story" is told. Personally, as someone who is pro life, I dont want to hear anyones "story", no offence.


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    #218
    darced
    Registered Users Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


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    #219
    The Very Hungry Catterpillar
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭The Very Hungry Catterpillar


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    I think for pro lifers, the shock factor comes from the fact that an abortion has taken place, it is not determined by how the "story" is told. Personally, as someone who is pro life, I dont want to hear anyones "story", no offence.
    None taken, guess we'll agree to differ on our interpretation of what is "shocking" - was just pointing out that there are people such as myself who live perfectly normal lives after terminating a pregnancy free from any sense of regret or being forever haunted.


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    #220
    The Very Hungry Catterpillar
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭The Very Hungry Catterpillar


    darced wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    In fairness I am going on personal experience so when I say not everyone becomes a regretful, haunted wreck following termination of a pregnancy I am talking about me.


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    #221
    Kooli
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    darced wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Did it ever cross your mind that for some of the people who are haunted by it or traumatised by it, this may be in part because we live in a country where they are called murderers by people like your good self?

    Perhaps if the woman's right to choose was a given, rather than something she had to fight for, and there was no stigma attached, many women who go through with the procedure would cope a lot better. Perhaps with no ill-effects.

    But the fact is pro-lifers don't want women to come out of an abortion unharmed. They want them to be crippled by guilt and haunted by pain.


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    #222
    Diapason
    Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭Diapason


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Personally, as someone who is pro life, I dont want to hear anyones "story", no offence.

    No matter what side of the fence you're on, choosing ignorance over knowledge doesn't make sense to me.


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    #223
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    The Very Hungry Catterpillar wrote: »
    None taken, guess we'll agree to differ on our interpretation of what is "shocking" - was just pointing out that there are people such as myself who live perfectly normal lives after terminating a pregnancy free from any sense of regret or being forever haunted.

    Of course. I guess it figures that anit-abortionists find it shocking and pro-choicers not so much. Makes sense.


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    #224
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Diapason wrote: »
    No matter what side of the fence you're on, choosing ignorance over knowledge doesn't make sense to me.


    Not wanting to hear the details of someone's abortion does not make you ignorant. We are all aware of what happens, the different "procedures" carried out depending on how developed the foetus is etc, we dont need to hear the stories to make it any more real.


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    #225
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Kooli wrote: »
    Did it ever cross your mind that for some of the people who are haunted by it or traumatised by it, this may be in part because we live in a country where they are called murderers by people like your good self?

    Perhaps if the woman's right to choose was a given, rather than something she had to fight for, and there was no stigma attached, many women who go through with the procedure would cope a lot better. Perhaps with no ill-effects.

    But the fact is pro-lifers don't want women to come out of an abortion unharmed. They want them to be crippled by guilt and haunted by pain.[/QUOTE]

    Wow, generalise much? I am pro life but I certainly do not wish to see any woman crippled with guilt. I am aware that there are fanatics who think the guilt is some form of sick punishment for murdering the unborn but I am certainly not one of them.

    Also, it's a little crass to use pro lifers as a scapegoat for the guilt associated with having an abortion. It's also insulting to these women to imply that they only experience these feelings because essentially, pro lifers tell them they should. We are all human beings with the ability to distinguish between whats right and wrong for us, and the ability to see the consequences of our actions etc, so its not compleptely crazy to suggest that these women feel guilty because maybe it wasn't the right decision for them. It's not like they are skipping along through life without a care in the world and they suddenly see a picture of an aborted foetus (tactics I dont agree with) and become aware of morality and regret all of a sudden.


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    #226
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Kooli wrote: »
    But the fact is pro-lifers don't want women to come out of an abortion unharmed. They want them to be crippled by guilt and haunted by pain.
    Utter, utter, utter bullshit.
    That's as farcical, and offensive as saying that all "pro-abortion" people see women as whores who don't have the intelligence to use contraception.

    (you see we can both make up offensive bull**** when required)


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    #227
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    Zulu wrote: »
    Utter, utter, utter bullshit.
    That's as farcical, and offensive as saying that all "pro-abortion" people see women as whores who don't have the intelligence to use contraception.

    (you see we can both make up offensive bull**** when required)

    Thats ridiculous and makes no sense no matter how you look at it. Pro choice side sees women as human beings who should have the choice to decide things in relation to their life and their body.

    The pro life side sees women who have abortions as murderers and do all in their power to instil the guilt and pain involved with that in those who have abortions.

    We can both make up offensive bullshít but there is only side side actively doing that.


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    #228
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    Thats ridiculous and makes no sense...
    That was my point. It was deliberately as farcical as Kooli's assertion.
    Pro choice side sees women as human beings...
    The pro life side sees women who have abortions as murderers...
    Oh right, I see. Your propaganda is right. :rolleyes:
    We can both make up offensive bullshít but there is only side side actively doing that.
    Indeed. I made a point of making a ridiculous statement to highlight a blatantly extremist attitude, you seem to be intent on supporting a blatantly extremist attitude.

    But hey, sure don't worry about it guy, all "pro-lifers" are the extremists who "see women as murderers". :rolleyes:


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    #229
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    Thats ridiculous and makes no sense no matter how you look at it. Pro choice side sees women as human beings who should have the choice to decide things in relation to their life and their body.

    pro-life see a fetus as a developing human being, pro-choice dont


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    #230
    SocSocPol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭SocSocPol


    davet82 wrote: »
    pro-life see a fetus as a developing human being, pro-choice dont
    Pro choice see fetus as a fetus, prolife consider the fertilized egg (two cells) to be a human being.


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    #231
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    SocSocPol wrote: »
    Pro choice see fetus as a fetus, prolife consider the fertilized egg (two cells) to be a human being.

    when does it stop being a fetus and become human?


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    #232
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Sigh, do people genuinely believe that by making assertions about anothers belief mean that it'll progress a conversation?

    Pro-life believe this, pro-abortion believe that. Frankly it's childish. It might be more productive for people to refrain from putting words into each others mouths.


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    #233
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    davet82 wrote: »
    when does it stop being a fetus and become human?
    The fetus is a human being; the fetus is a child.
    The question is when should it be afforded the protection of the state; when should it earn the right to life.


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    #234
    SocSocPol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭SocSocPol


    davet82 wrote: »
    when does it stop being a fetus and become human?
    In my opinion it becomes human when it reaches the stage where if it were removed from the womb it would capable of surviving without any long term physical or intellectual damage being caused by its birth. Im not a Doctor but I suspect thats probably around the 26-30 weeks, though like I say Im not a doctor so I am to some degree guessing.


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    #235
    Ms.M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Ms.M


    davet82 wrote: »
    pro-life see a fetus as a developing human being, pro-choice dont
    SocSocPol wrote: »
    Pro choice see fetus as a fetus, prolife consider the fertilized egg (two cells) to be a human being.

    I don't think either can be reduced to little mini-statements like these. There are pro-choicers who do see the foetus as a developing human being and pro-lifers that do not see two cells as a human being.

    It would save a lot of time and breath on these abortion-related threads if people said "in my opinion" instead of trying to represent a wide spectrum of belief. It just goes round and round and round and round and people get angrier and irrate...
    Perhaps I'm a wuss. I'm just making an observation.

    Wups, I see I'm a slow typer. Thank you Zulu. Btw it's foetus, not fetus! (unless you're from the U.S)


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    #236
    SocSocPol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭SocSocPol


    Zulu wrote: »
    The fetus is a human being. The question is when should it be afforded the protection of the state; when should it earn the right to life.
    No, it is a potential human being, which is miscarrages are not recorded in the registry of Deaths.
    In any event Termination is a matter for the potential mother and is a civil right.


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    #237
    Kooli
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    Zulu wrote: »
    Utter, utter, utter bullshit.
    That's as farcical, and offensive as saying that all "pro-abortion" people see women as whores who don't have the intelligence to use contraception.

    (you see we can both make up offensive bull**** when required)

    Really? I can't imagine someone on the pro-life side being glad that a woman who has had an abortion feels no guilt.

    That's not a dig at pro-life people. It just feels to me like the response that would naturally go along with the belief that abortion is murder.

    Like say I personally wouldn't be happy if I heard a murderer felt no guilt or remorse. And I wouldn't like to foster a culture where murderers don't feel guilt or remorse, or a culture where murder is seen as OK and the choice of the murderer.

    So, I'm just applying that same feeling to people who are pro-life.

    I'm not trying to be antagonistic, so if I'm wrong, please do explain where I am mistaken.
    I genuinely would like to understand how a pro-life (or anti-abortion) stance can fit with a notion of wanting a woman to come out the other side unharmed and guilt-free


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    #238
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    SocSocPol wrote: »
    No, it is a potential human being,
    Sorry, but putting it in bold doesn't make it right.

    Providing references like I did however...


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    #239
    AllGunsBlazing
    Registered Users Posts: 3,654 ✭✭✭AllGunsBlazing


    Time for this troll to go back under her bridge. Your 15 minutes are up love.


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    #240
    Dermighty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Dermighty


    davet82 wrote: »
    would you consider aborting a child with Downs Syndrome?

    I wouldn't consider it, I'd do it.


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    #241
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Kooli wrote: »
    Really?
    Yes really.
    I can't imagine...
    Because you can't imagine it doesn't make it so.
    I'm not trying to be antagonistic.
    Yeah, sure. Don't make me laugh. To assert that "pro-lifers don't want women to come out of an abortion unharmed" is antagonistic.
    To assert that "they want them to be crippled by guilt and haunted by pain" is antagonistic.

    You're being deliberately antagonistic, and disingenuous to boot.
    I genuinely would like to understand...
    I very much doubt that. If you are looking for a genuine conversation, I'd suggest being less antagonistic, disingenuous and offensive.


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