British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

TheKeenMachine

I reckoned it was about time one of these came about, even if it is a year away. The Lions often comes up in conversation and I thought it might be more convienient to have it all in one thread. For what it's worth, this is my two cents on the tour.

The Lions-A Year Out
This year's Lions will have an air of optimism about them heading South. The squad will be made up of a great mixture of a swashbuckling young Welsh team, Irishmen eager to have another crack at a Lions victory, an English side on the up and the individual talents of Scotsmen, such as Ross Ford and Stuart Hogg. The side will likely be coached by Wales boss Warren Gatland, who encourages his teams to play an exciting style of rugby, in the tradition of great Lions teams of the past. The Lions travel at a time when the Australians are definitely beatable, shown by both Scotland and Ireland in the past 12 months.

The Squad
Front Row

Loosehead: On the loosehead side of the scrum, two men have already all but secured a plane ticket down under - Ireland's Cian Healy and Wales' Gethin Jenkins. Jenkins is, in my book at least, the finest scrummager in the Northern Hemisphere while it is difficult to think of a front row more effective in the loose than Healy. Alex Corisibero is also in with a chance of travelling, having demolished the Irish scrum in Twickenham this year, but his place in the English side has already come under threat from the Premiership winning Joe Marler. As long as it remains inconclusive as to which of these is the first choice, I expect them both to miss out on the Lions.

Tighthead: Jenkin's front-row partner for Wales, Adam Jones, is another fantastic scrummager, and will be confident of a place in the touring party. So too England's Dan Cole, whose continued excellence in the scrum should see him return to tour for the second time. Mike Ross, who has been the anchor for Ireland and Leinster's scrum for the past two years may travel as well, while Scotsman Euan Murray is all but gone from contention, as his Newcastle team plying their trade in the English second tier next year.

Hooker: Ireland's stand in captain for the 6 Nations, Rory Best, is the outstanding candidate for a test jersey after a fantastic year for club and country. He will most likely be backed up by Scottish captain Ross Ford, leaving a space open for one of Matthew Rees, Dylan Hartley or Richardt Strauss. Expect Rees' familiarity with the tactics of Gatland to secure his place on the tour.

Lock
The Lions are lucky to have three world class operators in the lock position - Wales veteran Alun Wyn Jones, the titanic Richie Gray, standing at a massive 6'10 and 2009 captain Paul O'Connell. This gilded trio will have back up from two of Donncha Ryan, Bradley Davies and Courtney Lawes. Ryan's ability to play 6 should see him travel, while Lawes will need a fantastic season to get ahead of Gatland favourite, the reliable Davies.

Back Row

Blindside Flanker: Another of Gatland's favourites, 6 Nations player of the tournament Dan Lydiate, will almost certainly be on the plane. As will Ulsterman Stephen Ferris, injury permitting. England's Tom Croft will have a good chance of travelling too, although he also has a poor record with injuries. Munster's Peter O'Mahony and Leinster's Kevin McLaughlin will need to displace Ferris from the Irish XV to stand any chance of travelling.

Openside Flanker: Welsh captain Sam Warburton, who has a great chance of captaining the Lions too, is a dead cert for travelling. He will be pushed hard for a place in the starting line up by the Tullow Tank - Seán O'Brien, who outplayed Richie McCaw on Ireland's tour to New Zealand this summer. Scotland's Ross Rennie and England skipper Chris Robshaw are in with a chance too, while Dominic Ryan needs to break into the Irish set up to have a chance of bolting onto the tour. Robshaw's leadership credentials should see him travel as fifth choice flanker, leaving team-mate Croft on stand-by.

Number 8: Ireland's Jamie Heaslip, a veteran of the '09 tour will be front runner for a touring place but will be battling the youthful exuberance of Wales's Toby Faletau, the teak-tough Scotsman David Denton and England international Ben Morgan. Welshman Gareth Delve, who now plys his trade Down Under, might be a dark horse, as his local knowledge may prove invaluable. However, with only two from five travelling, expect Heaslip's experience and Gatland's loyalty to Faletau to shine through.

Sam Warburton: Will he lead the Lions to victory?

Half-backs

Scrum half: Definitely a position of weakness for the Lions, with Wales' Mike Phillips certainly travelling, and probably starting. Beyond that, it is hard to see anyone with the ability to step up into the side. Ben Youngs' snappy delivery should see him travel, so long as he can keep ahead of England team-mate Lee Dickson. Irishmen Conor Murray and Eoin Reddan are unlikely to travel - Murray has a while to go before becoming top-class, while Reddan can't get past him into the starting line-up. Scotland's Greig Laidlaw has the versatility to play 9 and 10, and is a great kicker to boot. This versatility is important for a touring side, and could see him travel.

Fly-Half: Irishman Jonny Sexton is constantly improving, and is a cut above any other home nations out-half. He will almost certainly travel, but his back up is less clear. The erratic Rhys Priestland continues to cling to the Welsh jersey, but Gatland can only keep the faith for so long, as Osprey's Dan Biggar continues to kick near metromonically for his club. England and Saracens man Owen Farrell had a fantastic breakthrough in the 6 Nations, and can play centre to boot, but with Toby Flood and the returning Danny Cipriani breathing down his neck, it is unclear whether or not he'll even be in the England side by the time the tour swings around. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Biggar will claim the Welsh jersey and a touring spot.

Centre
Wales's Jamie Roberts has been in good form for club and country, and will be looking forward to re-igniting an explosive centre partenership with Irish captain Brian O'Driscoll. O'Driscoll will want to end a glittering career on a high with a first Lions victory, and is the sentimental favourite for captaincy. These two will be pushed hard for a starting berth by an Englishman, a Welsman and a Scotsman - bosh mechant Manu Tuilagi, the solid and reliable Jon Davies and the exciting Stuart Hogg. Ireland's Keith Earls also has a chance of travelling, but with only four centres making the journey, expect Davies and Hogg to get the nod.

Drico: Looking to erase the hurt of three previous tours.
Back Three

Wing: Tommy Bowe, who is fast closing in on Ireland's try-scoring record, has been a constantly brilliant performer since the last tour, and should travel and possibly start in Australia. We will likely be joined on the wing by gifted Welshman George North, whose battle with Australia's James O'Connor will be a fantastic sight to behold. His international teammate, Alex Cuthbert, should also get the nod, with one space remaining for either the as of yet uncapped Englishman Christian Wade, the Flying Dutchman Tim Visser or the prolific Chris Ashton. Wade is an immense talent and should he break into the English side, I believe he'll overtake Ashton in the pecking order. However Visser, the top try-scorer in the Pro 12 two years on the bounce, should be in the driving seat for a place oin the plane.

Full-Back: This position virtually picks itself. Ireland's Rob Kearney, the recent ERC Player of the Year, has been fantastic for club and country and deserves a place in the team. He will face stiff competition from Welshman Leigh Halfpenny, who has proved himself as an excellent kicker. Englishman Ben Foden may also sneak a place, but Hogg's ability to play full-back should mean the position is adaquately covered.

Which leaves my final squad at:
Props: Healy; Jenkins; Jones; Cole; Ross
Hookers: Best; Ford; Rees
Locks: Gray; POC; Wyn-Jones; Ryan; Davies
Flankers: Warburton; SOB; Ferris; Lydiate; Robshaw
Number 8s: Heaslip; Faletau
Scrum-Halves: Phillips; Laidlaw; Youngs
Fly-Halves:Sexton; Biggar
Centres: BOD; Roberts; Hogg; Davies
Wings: Bowe; North; Cuthbert; Visser
Full-Backs: Kearney; Halfpenny

So, what are we up against?

• Saturday 1 June 2013, The Barbarians
• Wednesday 5 June 2013, Western Force
• Saturday 8 June 2013, Queensland Reds,
• Wednesday 12 June 2013, New South Wales/Queensland Country invitational team
• Saturday 15 June 2013, NSW Waratahs
• Tuesday 18 June 2013, ACT Brumbies
• Saturday 22 June 2013, Australia - First Test
• Tuesday 25 June 2013, Melbourne Rebels
• Saturday 29 June 2013, Australia - Second Test
• Saturday 6 July 2013, Australia - Third Test

After a match in Hong Kong against the Baabaas, the Lions will travel to Australia and play against their provincial sides. On the 22nd of June, the real battle begins as the Lions take on Australia in the First Test. Australia, led by inspirational captain David Pocock, who has become the greatest openside flanker in the world, will be no easy prospect. Their potent backline includes the skilful Quade Cooper, the mercurial Kurtley Beale and the insanely gifted James O'Connor. However, as the old adage goes "forwards decide who wins a match, backs decide by how much", and while the Wallabies have a talented back-line, the Lions have the advantage up front, with players such as Ben Alexander and Benn Robinson not much more than journeymen.
David Pocock: Once in a lifetime chance
Final Prediction
With one of the stronger Lions teams taking on a magical going forward, but defensively lacking Australian side, I'm going to plump for the Lions to win 2-1.

Pictures courtesy of ESPN Scrum. The rest is my own work.

bilston

I assumed it was a done deal a long time ago but any hopes of this being on terrestrial tv were dashed this morning after Sky announced they had won the exclusive rights to the tour.

http://www.skysports.com/lions-09/story/0,25921,16057_7932289,00.html

Podge_irl

When is the coach being announced? I know its all but certain to be Gatland but just curious.

Teferi

I thought it was announced a few months ago that it was definitely Gatland?

Podge_irl

So did I. But people have been talking about it like it hasn't been decided so I got confused.

thomond2006

Great post OP!

I wouldn't count out Steffon Armitage as being a bolter, he was phenomenal last season with Toulon. He needs to break into the England setup who are now against picking non England based players now though. Plus Armitage tested positive for a banned substance after the Top14 final and has been provisionally suspended pending a hearing, Toulon came out with a strongly worded statement in support of the player, claiming whatever he took was to heal an injury.

Tox56

I disagree with the claim that full-back "virtually picks itself", I think it's one of the most contested positions. Kearney is probably ahead right now, but anything can happen between now and then. With Gatland as coach I wouldn't rule out Halfpenny starting, especially with his kicking ability.

EDIT: I only just realised you were talking in terms of the squad

PhatPiggins

Great post KM. POC nailed on as captain, especially if Gatland is coach. Been saying it for 13 months so no point changing now.

thomond2006

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Great post KM. POC nailed on as captain, especially if Gatland is coach. Been saying it for 13 months so no point changing now.

You think so? I'd say the same thing but around Warburton, not POC.

Podge_irl

Why would POC be more nailed on with Gatland as coach?

.ak

Great post KM.

leftleg

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Great post KM. POC nailed on as captain, especially if Gatland is coach. Been saying it for 13 months so no point changing now.

Why?

Teferi

Warburton will probably get it but he is incredibly unlikely to last the full series uninjured.

Fishooks12

I hope Warburton isn't captain

Firstly I think he's a tad overrated. I think SOB has become a better 7 and Justin Tipuric isn't far off him in Wales either

Secondly he's got very little experience as an International captain

And thirdly he's very injury prone

Call me crazy but would Rory Best be a bad shout for captain? He's the form 2 in the NH right now, very consistent form and will probably play all three tests bar a big loss of form

Podge_irl

I think Best would be a great call. Still think they might be wary of 3 Irish captains in a row though.

I'm not overly enamoured with the idea of Warburton as captain for the reasons mentioned above, but if he remains captain of Wales all year and stays ahead of Tipuric then he has to be a contender. POC is certainly in the mix, but with Gatland as coach I'd be more worried that he doesn't view POC as an ideal partner for Grey, who is as nailed on as they come.

CatFromHue

Good post KeenMachine!

I suppose as a back I tend to focus more on the 9-15 players than the forwards and it's interesting that you have Hogg down as more of a centre. He's been playing mostly at 15 for Scotland and he does look promising.

The Aussies aren't known for their kicking game. In the June internationals they kicked 62 times from hand compared to 64 from Wales, 79 from SA, 81 from Eng, 55 from NZ, and 52 from Ire. The NZ stats are a bit skewed they won 2 of their games easily compared to Oz being in three tight games. Kearney is excellent at receiving kicks, it's by far the strongest part of his game. His defence be a bit wanting at times though and he isn't as an exciting runner as Hogg. So Oz won't be playing to his strengths and naturally play to his weaknesses. I think this will count against him in selection for the Lions.

If Hogg can continue improving I think it'll be between him and Halfpenny for the 15 jersey.

Another interesting position for the Lions is 12. Roberts can't seem to stay fit and at the moment isn't expected back until October. There isn't alot of quality from the other nations at 12 though. This may put a few people into meltdown but if, and usual it's a big if, Gavin Henson can get some form and get the head down he could well go on tour at 12. The Welsh management were dying to bring him to to RWC and you could see in the last warm up game that himself and Roberts were starting to form a potent partnership. There is alot of rugby still to be played of course!

Beck >>>>>>>>>>> Henson

Cpt_Blackbeard

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Great post KM. POC nailed on as captain, especially if Gatland is coach. Been saying it for 13 months so no point changing now.

Its certainly looking more likely now anyway. Warburton has suffered terribly with injuries and is facing real competition for both the Welsh and the prospective Lions jersey. Best has a shout of being thereabouts, but I think we'll only see him captain in midweek. BOD's chances have taken a huge blow coming off the NZ tour and he'd need to be in mesmeric form next year to get the nod.

POC came away from the last tour with harsh criticism of his form from the British media, but there were numerous player/staff accounts of his brilliant leadership. Gatland may also be wary to be seen giving the honour to a Welsh player and his experience with POC from 09 may sway him. The only thing counting against him is that he'd be the 3rd Irish captain in a row.

CatFromHue

Was the OP inspired by RugbyDump today?

http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/07/2705/a-look-back-at-the-successful-1997-british-and-irish-lions-tour-of-south-africa

Quint2010

The thing about the captaincy is that whoever gets it needs to be an automatic first choice. I think Rory Best is a great call. I think all the other candidates are not sure of their first team places.

PhatPiggins

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why would POC be more nailed on with Gatland as coach?

Political reasons, regardless of how Ireland play in the 6Ns the Lions team will be made up of 12/13 Welsh/Irish players. Gatland has 100% support from the Welsh players but one of the popular rumours to come out of the last tour is that the Irish players still think he's a knobber. I think Gatland has matured as a coach and he ll be conscious of getting the Irish lads on board. Best way of doing that is to have an Irish captain, so its POC or BOD in my book. Anyway regardless of politics POC and BOD are the stand out candidates.

That's just my theory anyway.

tolosenc

Cian Healy for captain!

thomond2006

The captain should be an automatic starter regardless, IMO that probably works in Best's favour as he is comfortably better than Hartley, Rees or Ford. On the other hand there are many options at lock, centre and definitely backrow, there will be 2/3 excellent backrowers who won't even make the plane.

bilston

Quint2010 wrote: »

The thing about the captaincy is that whoever gets it needs to be an automatic first choice. I think Rory Best is a great call. I think all the other candidates are not sure of their first team places.

The realistic calls are the captains of the four home countries - Ford, O'Driscoll, Warburton and Robshaw and then guys like Best and O'Connell from Ireland and AWJ and Matthew Rees from Wales.

At the moment I'd go for Rory but I think if Warburton stays fit next season it's his for the taking.

val_jester

bilston wrote: »

The realistic calls are the captains of the four home countries - Ford, O'Driscoll, Warburton and Robshaw and then guys like Best and O'Connell from Ireland and AWJ and Matthew Rees from Wales.

At the moment I'd go for Rory but I think if Warburton stays fit next season it's his for the taking.

I'd be shocked if Best gets the captaincy, unfortunately he is not highly rated outside of Ireland, and despite being the best option at hooker, it would not surprise me if he isn't seen as the starter.

Warburton is too injury prone at the moment and even if he stays fully fit next season, Tupiric is going to push him close for Wales next season.

Gatland is definitely going to get the coaches role, I remember reading that he is going to be back in charge of Wales for the Autumn internationals before taking a break again during the Six Nations, with Howley taking over as caretaker, and so, that Gatland can have a less biased view of which players to take.

With Gatland as coach there is a good chance he will go for a non Welsh captain to bring unity to the squad, and avoid any question of bias. It will depend on who plays well in the Six Nations, obviously, and if Poc plays like he played when fit this season, I think he will be the frontrunner for the position.

jm08

Good interview here with POC & Brian O'Driscoll about the last Lions tour. Some interesting things to say about captaincy (and Gatland).

I can't see anyone captaining the Lions who hasn't been on a Lions before. That will rule out a fair few.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/6231469/Paul-OConnell-and-Brian-ODriscoll-bask-in-the-pride-of-the-British-and-Irish-Lions.html

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Beck >>>>>>>>>>> Henson

Not really true though. Both are good players and I'd pick Beck as of right now. He is quite limited though and not good enough to start a test yet.

Teferi

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

BOD's chances have taken a huge blow coming off the NZ tour and he'd need to be in mesmeric form next year to get the nod.

After coming back from major injury to playing a huge role in the business end of the season for Leinster which ended in him having knee surgery followed by winning a Heineken Cup less than 7 days after that surgery and competing for the Pro12 the week after that followed by 2 good games and 1 bad one against New Zealand I really don't think his chances of gone down.

I could understand why you would want them to though.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not really true though. Both are good players and I'd pick Beck as of right now. He is quite limited though and not good enough to start a test yet.

Henson hasn't shown any form in years tbh, while Beck is on an upward run. He's not developed a full skillset, but he has the makings of being a fantastic option at 12.

Henson in his prime had a better boot than him, and made flashier tackles. That's about it, and his prime's further back in history than Tomás O'Leary's, and I doubt many of us are guessing that a spell at LI is going to cast him into Lions recognition.

Beck's still a kid in pro rugby terms. But he's had a heck of a season.

Podge_irl

While BOD has done amazingly for Leinster, international form is more important for Lions consideration

Tox56

That third game vs NZ was close to the worst I have seen BOD play, but he was hardly the only one. I can't see the Lions coaches focusing on that game in a years time.

Next season is the important one.