British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

the baby bull elephant

jm08 wrote: »

Not sure how you came to the conclusion that Zebo's defence isn't as good as Gilroys!

Just checked their recent defence record (for games they both played in). Tackles made/missed.
v Wales: zebo 4/2. Gilroy 5/3.
v Argentina: Zebo 2/0. Gilroy 2/3.

Internationally to date (which is a bit surprising!). Looks like Gilroy's defence isn't as good as Zebos.
Zebo 6/2.
Gilroy 7/6.

I also checked out their HCup stats this year:
Zebo 13/3.
Gilroy 7/2.


One attribute of Zebo's which hasn't been mentioned and which is superb and that his ability to claim restarts. Two tries came from restarts that he reclaimed against Northampton (when he got his hatrick).

You should watch this try!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlabQyZgkHE

Why would you not want him to pass the ball. The guy is the fastest player in Ireland and he doesn't get turned over so yes, he is right to go for it.

That's not right if it was you be telling me that Gilroy didn't make or miss a tackle in 4 international games! Where are you getting your stats btw if it's ESPN I will say now I do not trust them especially for tackles and turnovers. Anyway defense is about a lot more than tackling especially for backs.

If someone is odds on to make a linebreak or to score and Zebo has a slim chance of course I bloody want him to pass.

Zebo's skill under the high ball has been mentioned numerous times I'm sure people include restarts in that.

shuffol

Gilroy's still a bit raw, needs to learn to carry the ball in both hands. Zebo whilst lacking the lightening step Gilroy has off his right foot is a more balanced runner overall.

Chabals Beard

Problem with Earls is people have their minds made up on him , if you actually watched any Munster game Earls has been playing very good, its just when he doesn't pass to BOD despite making a break out of nothing he is all of a sudden the worst player in Ireland. He is still the best linebreaker in the country and I would put a bet on that he is the fastest.

5 trys in the world cup and a Lions tour is not a mark of a bad player, he has been thrown around the backline like a ragdoll and I am certain if he stayed on the wing he would be recognised as world class at this stage.

Fortunally he is still youngish and hopefully Penny plays him on the wing vs Clermont and next season. A back 3 next year of Earls, Conway/Jones and Zebo is a very exciting one in my opinion.

shuffol

Chabals Beard wrote: »

Problem with Earls is people have their minds made up on him , if you actually watched any Munster game Earls has been playing very good, its just when he doesn't pass to BOD despite making a break out of nothing he is all of a sudden the worst player in Ireland. He is still the best linebreaker in the country and I would put a bet on that he is the fastest.

5 trys in the world cup and a Lions tour is not a mark of a bad player, he has been thrown around the backline like a ragdoll and I am certain if he stayed on the wing he would be recognised as world class at this stage.

Fortunally he is still youngish and hopefully Penny plays him on the wing vs Clermont and next season. A back 3 next year of Earls, Conway/Jones and Zebo is a very exciting one in my opinion.

He's also the most natural counterattacker in the country, something which is wasted when he's at center, not sure if he'd ever be world class but he'd be going to Australia this summer IMO.

Mahatma Geansai

shuffol wrote: »

He's also the most natural counterattacker in the country, something which is wasted when he's at center, not sure if he'd ever be world class but he'd be going to Australia this summer IMO.

He's better at picking running lines/finding space through the more crowded lines in midfield than he is from deep. This has been effective on the wing because he has the pace to beat men on the outside as well as coming in and beating players.

Liveforrugby

Quade cooper left out?

http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/breaking-news-sport/quade-cooper-out-of-wallabies-picture-20130410-2hl57.html

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is an awful, awful lot more to good defence then a simple tackles made/missed stat could ever hope to represent.

Yes there is - but it certainly is an indicator - like missing a lot of tackles would indicate that something is wrong.

FellasFellas

jm08 wrote: »

Yes there is - but it certainly is an indicator - like missing a lot of tackles would indicate that something is wrong.

Chris Ashton's tackles made % must be hovering perilously above the zero mark

jm08

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

That's not right if it was you be telling me that Gilroy didn't make or miss a tackle in 4 international games! Where are you getting your stats btw if it's ESPN I will say now I do not trust them especially for tackles and turnovers. Anyway defense is about a lot more than tackling especially for backs.

If someone is odds on to make a linebreak or to score and Zebo has a slim chance of course I bloody want him to pass.

Zebo's skill under the high ball has been mentioned numerous times I'm sure people include restarts in that.

I just included the games they both played in (i.e., the same opposition). (for the record Gilroy made 6 tackles and missed 2 in the rest of the 6Ns).
The ESPN stats may not be perfect, but they are indicative and the same source for both players.

The thing about Zebo is that he is more likely to score than anyone else (and his record proves that).

Edit: Being good under a high ball and reclaiming restarts don't always go together. (You need to be very fast as well to get there). Shane Horgan the last Irish player who was good at it.

jm08

FellasFellas wrote: »

Chris Ashton's tackles made % must be hovering perilously above the zero mark

It is - against Ireland he made 4 and missed 4! Against Wales he made 6 and missed 2 though.

the baby bull elephant

jm08 wrote: »

The thing about Zebo is that he is more likely to score than anyone else (and his record proves that).

Do you mean in relation in my thing about not passing? If you have an overlap and the guy with the ball had 30 tries in 15 matches and the other guy unmarked in space has 1 in 100 you still pass the ball.

Chabals Beard

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Do you mean in relation in my thing about not passing? If you have an overlap and the guy with the ball had 30 tries in 15 matches and the other guy unmarked in space has 1 in 100 you still pass the ball.

Do you have a issue with Zebo as a person or something because you are constantly exaggetating flaws in his game which he has worked hard on and improved

jm08

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Do you mean in relation in my thing about not passing? If you have an overlap and the guy with the ball had 30 tries in 15 matches and the other guy unmarked in space has 1 in 100 you still pass the ball.

I think they should concentrate on scoring themselves. Why risk passing the ball if the guy who has it has as good if not a better chance of scoring.

the baby bull elephant

Chabals Beard wrote: »

Do you have a issue with Zebo as a person or something because you are constantly exaggetating flaws in his game which he has worked hard on and improved

Nope, I do have an issue with the hype he's received but I recognise he a very good player and could be excellent. I happily admit he is very good under the high ball, has a huge left boot, is lightning quick and is an excellent finisher. I admitted I exaggerated about his defence he has improved it though I still think it's definitely not a strength.

However I do think his lack of passing and an ability to beat a man are severly lacking. If he improves them he'd be up their with the best. And no I don't think I'm exaggerating here.

I prefer my wingers being able to create oppurtunities for themselves and for others ala Gilroy, Williams, JO'C etc. What's so wrong with that? I wouldn't say I'm constantly exaggerating flaws either that's you opinion but it's seems to be your opinion that he is nigh on perfect and the finished article.

the baby bull elephant

jm08 wrote: »

I think they should concentrate on scoring themselves. Why risk passing the ball if the guy who has it has as good if not a better chance of scoring.

I'd disagree with that but I suppose different philosophys on rugby are to be expected.

Just as an example that springs to mind do you think he was right here? Of course the try was scored a minute later luckily but I felt at the time and still do that if he's drawn and passed before contact it would have been a certain try.

http://youtu.be/cq_4gCJY8Gk?t=36m37s

Sorry if I seem to be victimising him.

jm08

Lots of Zebo (& Earls) passing here in this Zebo tribute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ9kKBz2uzo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAdbntjEwB8

FellasFellas

jm08 wrote: »

It is - against Ireland he made 4 and missed 4! Against Wales he made 6 and missed 2 though.

Mike Brown had to bail him out of that dreadul attempt to tackle North, he was literally jumping at the air to tackle Fofana, but this one is my favourite. it's not even a missed tackle, just appalling defence.

http://youtu.be/p0cn301rXYA?t=1h30m47s

totallegend

I really don't think Zebo will go, just too many good wingers ahead of him IMO. Ditto Gilroy.
North, Cuthbert, Maitland, Hogg, Ashton (boooo). Maybe even Bowe or Visser.

I'm firmly on board the Christian Wade bandwagon.

jm08

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

I'd disagree with that but I suppose different philosophys on rugby are to be expected.

Just as an example that springs to mind do you think he was right here? Of course the try was scored a minute later luckily but I felt at the time and still do that if he's drawn and passed before contact it would have been a certain try.

http://youtu.be/cq_4gCJY8Gk?t=36m37s

Sorry if I seem to be victimising him.

I think Simon really works hard and gets stuck in and generally gets himself into great positions to score. It takes a lot of skill to do that which I'm sure is well appreciated by his team mates.

the baby bull elephant

jm08 wrote: »

I think Simon really works hard and gets stuck in and generally gets himself into great positions to score. It takes a lot of skill to do that which I'm sure is well appreciated by his team mates.

What has that to do with what you quoted? Or anything I've said?

thomond2006

Earls really doesn't have a shot at going, so his merits aren't really for this thread IMHO. In terms of a player who can play 11-15, Hogg would fill that role.

Zebo is a possible tourist, if anything his injury helped him since he wasn't part of the Irish malaise this season. Zebo's only full game was against Wales and we know how that went. Whether he has enough time to prove his fitness/form, that's an issue.

danthefan

totallegend wrote: »

I really don't think Zebo will go, just too many good wingers ahead of him IMO. Ditto Gilroy.
North, Cuthbert, Maitland, Hogg, Ashton (boooo). Maybe even Bowe or Visser.

I'm firmly on board the Christian Wade bandwagon.

It's very competitive. North and Cuthbert are on the plane. Beyond those I think it's fairly open, I think Zebo definitely has a chance. Would be a good tourist too.

its_phil

danthefan wrote: »

It's very competitive. North and Cuthbert are on the plane. Beyond those I think it's fairly open, I think Zebo definitely has a chance. Would be a good tourist too.

Yeah it's very open for me too. North and Cuthbert for sure. I just worry that injury came at an awful time for Zebo and his chances. The fact Gatland noted him before could be the difference. I'm a big Visser fan, always seems to find the try line at club and international level.

CatFromHue

thomond2006 wrote: »

Zebo is a possible tourist, if anything his injury helped him since he wasn't part of the Irish malaise this season. Zebo's only full game was against Wales and we know how that went. Whether he has enough time to prove his fitness/form, that's an issue.

In the Wales game you had North, Cuthbert, Gilroy, and Zebo as the wings. My rankings of the wings that day would have Zebo as joint third or maybe even fourth to be honest. I'm not saying he played bad but the others were pretty good.

1. North. He's a great player
2. Gilroy. Was good in both attack and defence with some nice, and important, touches in both.
3. Cuthbert and Zebo. Cuthbert scored a nice try but was caught in no mans land for Zebo's try.

GiftofGab

It looks like Quade Cooper is not going to play for Australia. They will be already be without Pocock and Beale (not a bad omission given his recent form).

Devestated. Australia need Copper. I'm in Oz now and have been watching the Super Rugby. Cooper is actually playing quite well. I was at the game Reds Vs Rebels with Cooper and O'Connor both playing at out half. Have to say that Cooper definately won the battle.

He's a great player - lacks defence but his attack is top class.

It looks like its going to be 3-0 Lions.

http://planetrugby.com/lions-09/story/0,25883,16024_8628672,00.html

CGD

GiftofGab wrote: »

It looks like Quade Cooper is not going to play for Australia. They will be already be without Pocock and Beale (not a bad omission given his recent form).

Devestated. Australia need Copper. I'm in Oz now and have been watching the Super Rugby. Cooper is actually playing quite well. I was at the game Reds Vs Rebels with Cooper and O'Connor both playing at out half. Have to say that Cooper definately won the battle.

He's a great player - lacks defence but his attack is top class.

It looks like its going to be 3-0 Lions.

http://planetrugby.com/lions-09/story/0,25883,16024_8628672,00.html

I think that would spell the end for Deans!

matthew8

Australia still has a lot of class in their team. Home field advantage, backline still excellent (even if they'll only have steady Barnes at OH) with Genia, AAC, JOC all top class, Folau looking good, not to mention the Lions have their own weaknesses such as centre.

bilston

totallegend wrote: »

I really don't think Zebo will go, just too many good wingers ahead of him IMO. Ditto Gilroy.
North, Cuthbert, Maitland, Hogg, Ashton (boooo). Maybe even Bowe or Visser.

I'm firmly on board the Christian Wade bandwagon.

Zebo has the advantage of having played FB at test level and that might prove to be at Kearney's expense. You'd probably want three players who either are or can play FB and Halfpenny, Hogg and Zebo fit the bill there. North, Cuthbert, Ashton, Bowe and maybe Wade as a bolter but then you mightn't need Wade if you have Zebo.

Coburger

thomond2006 wrote: »

Earls really doesn't have a shot at going, so his merits aren't really for this thread IMHO. In terms of a player who can play 11-15, Hogg would fill that role.

Zebo is a possible tourist, if anything his injury helped him since he wasn't part of the Irish malaise this season. Zebo's only full game was against Wales and we know how that went. Whether he has enough time to prove his fitness/form, that's an issue.

Remember Earls four years ago, wasn't doing all that much (if I remember correctly) and then he got a few tries against Ospreys in the Heineken Cup and he was on the plane. Quite an early call cause if I remember correctly he wasn't very good at catching (did he knock on the first three times he got the ball - I may be woefully wrong on that one)

Coburger

Yikes, don't know if this was mentioned earlier here but not many Irish players in Davies Lions:

http://www.therugbyforum.com/rugby-union/nh/jonathan-davies-gavin-hastings-name-their-lions-xv-predictions/

Not many as in none!!! He has managed to squeeze in one or two of the Welsh chaps though