British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

irishbucsfan

danthefan wrote: »

How are you figuring that? It's in black and white, they have to release him to the Lions.

Because Gatland has addressed it as a problem. He knows the rules and still seems to be seeking the support of the clubs.

It would be completely unfair on the clubs to lose players for their biggest game of the season. Add in the fact it's the French, which adds to the trouble as a) they don't care about the Lions and b) as far as they're concerned the players should be putting the Bouclier well ahead of a Barbarians money spinner in Hong Kong.

It's pretty understandable why they wouldn't want to release the players. The rules are rules but enforcing them would cause trouble between these guys and their employers and that's not really fair either.

I don't see why Jenkins or whoever else can't just fly out a few days late.

totallegend

danthefan wrote: »

totallegend wrote: »

No, Hines just quit his job. He was leaving anyway.

If Jenkins wants to play at Toulon next year, he has to toe the line.

How are you figuring that? It's in black and white, they have to release him to the Lions.

That IRB rule basically says that the Lions get treated like an international team, right?

Now, the problem is that the first Lions game falls outside the international window. So,it has the same status as Wales v Oz in the Autumn. And the clubs do not have to release their players for that. See?

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

That IRB rule basically says that the Lions get treated like an international team, right?

Now, the problem is that the first Lions game falls outside the international window. So,it has the same status as Wales v Oz in the Autumn. And the clubs do not have to release their players for that. See?

No, any player selected for the Lions has to be released under IRB laws.

CIARAN_BOYLE

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, any player selected for the Lions has to be released under IRB laws.

9.6b states in full

irb reg 9.6 wrote:

The quadrennial British and Irish Lions Tour is a
Designated Event and all Players selected to participate
shall be released. The Release Period shall ordinarily1
commence on 1 June and ordinarily conclude on the 2nd
weekend of July in the relevant year.

I would take this to mean that the clubs must release players from the release date 1st June and before that they have the rights to their players.

danthefan

totallegend wrote: »

That IRB rule basically says that the Lions get treated like an international team, right?

Now, the problem is that the first Lions game falls outside the international window. So,it has the same status as Wales v Oz in the Autumn. And the clubs do not have to release their players for that. See?

Did you actually read the rule?

CIARAN_BOYLE

danthefan wrote: »

Did you actually read the rule?

The rules states that the release period ie the international window begins on 1st of June Babas match is outside that

irishbucsfan

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The rules states that the release period ie the international window begins on 1st of June Babas match is outside that

It says it ORDINARILLY would. It also says it will start in time to allow the player 5 days to train before the match, rule 9.9

CIARAN_BOYLE

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It says it ORDINARILLY would. It also says it will start in time to allow the player 5 days to train before the match, rule 9.9

and then in a footnote

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/regulations/04/23/27/120531gfirbhandbook2012freg9eng.pdf wrote:

1 Calendar may shift depending on weekend dates in the relevant year hence a reference to “ordinarily”.

To be honest I'm no lawyer but I'm sure that there probably are lawyers checking over these regulations, however I don't think Gatland would have needed to talk about getting the players released if he could just force the issue

Anyway I've seen a few news articles suggesting that Jenkins loyalty would be his club so this may be a non issue.

http://www.espnscrum.com/lions-tour-2013/rugby/story/169480.html

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It says it ORDINARILLY would. It also says it will start in time to allow the player 5 days to train before the match, rule 9.9

In the ESPN article linked by Ciaran.

"The international window begins on the weekend of June 9. Everything that happens before that is outside of the window," Laporte told L'Equipe. "As far as freeing up Gethin, in principle, it's a no. If he plays in the final, he will leave the day after, on Sunday June 2, but not before.

Podge_irl

The ordinary international window and the special Lions window aren't the same thing. Laporte, from my reading, is completely wrong. However, Jenkins still has to work with these people afterwards so it is possible that the entire purpose of Gatland's visit is merely to inform the relevant parties of the law and make sure things run as smoothly as possible. I would not be pleased to lose my no.1 loosehead where I in the same position as Laporte, regardless of the IRB laws.

jacothelad

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It says it ORDINARILLY would. It also says it will start in time to allow the player 5 days to train before the match, rule 9.9

A bit of diplomatic common sense needs to be employed. The Lions don't need Jenkins at all given they have Corbisiero and Healy available for the, in the Lions context, fairly pointless Barbarians game. Of course all things are moot at this moment. Toulon may not be in the final, Jenkins may be injured, he may play like a drain. He hasn't been any great shakes for a while now. I know he has been carrying injuries so being charitable, perhaps it's down to that. Let him catch a later 'plane.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

In the ESPN article linked by Ciaran.

That's really strange

totallegend

jacothelad wrote: »

Let him catch a later 'plane.

Yeah, I don't see the issue with just doing that. Like, it's not like the early days of the Lions when it was a three-weak steamship journey to join the tour? Even if he plays in the Top 14 semi-final and Toulon lose, Jenkins won't be playing in Hong Kong, so what's the issue?

thomond2006

Ben Foden out for 3 months.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19638501

wicklowwonder

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ben Foden out for 3 months.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19638501

How many out and out full backs will travel? Kearney and Halfpenny on last years form, maybe Hook as well to cover a few positions?

danthefan

There's basically no such thing as an "out and out fullback" these days. Kearney, Foden, 1/2p all have significant experience on the wing. Foden has even started tests there recently.

Fireball07

danthefan wrote: »

There's basically no such thing as an "out and out fullback" these days. Kearney, Foden, 1/2p all have significant experience on the wing. Foden has even started tests there recently.

But someone like Kearney is infinitely better at full-back than on the wing. He's far and away Ireland's best full-back but put him on the wing, and he'd be way down the list.

Halfpenny is probably a better winger than him, although not as good at full-back. His goal-kicking gives him an edge though.

Podge_irl

Fireball07 wrote: »

His goal-kicking gives him an edge though.

Only really if Sexton doesn't start, which I really struggle to see happening.

danthefan

Fireball07 wrote: »

But someone like Kearney is infinitely better at full-back than on the wing. He's far and away Ireland's best full-back but put him on the wing, and he'd be way down the list.

Halfpenny is probably a better winger than him, although not as good at full-back. His goal-kicking gives him an edge though.

No doubt about that. Foden and 1/2p do a very good impression of a winger though. And Kearney has a lot of good performances in the past on the wing too.

Tox56

I think Kearney is as close as you're gonna get to an out and out full-back. A bit like Sexton at 12, he can play there and "do a job", but it's not his position and it's a waste to have him there when he could be at full-back.

wicklowwonder

Fireball07 wrote: »

danthefan wrote: »

There's basically no such thing as an "out and out fullback" these days. Kearney, Foden, 1/2p all have significant experience on the wing. Foden has even started tests there recently.

But someone like Kearney is infinitely better at full-back than on the wing. He's far and away Ireland's best full-back but put him on the wing, and he'd be way down the list.

Halfpenny is probably a better winger than him, although not as good at full-back. His goal-kicking gives him an edge though.

If Kearney plays to 80% of how he played last season he will own the 15 shirt. He just offers more all round. Sexton will start 10 as well I think. Other than that I wouldn't be surprised if Gatland didn't start any other Irish players.

danthefan

Tox56 wrote: »

I think Kearney is as close as you're gonna get to an out and out full-back. A bit like Sexton at 12, he can play there and "do a job", but it's not his position and it's a waste to have him there when he could be at full-back.

It's nothing like that, Kearney has dozens of starts on the wing.

Fireball07

Podge_irl wrote: »

Only really if Sexton doesn't start, which I really struggle to see happening.

I suppose that's true but Halfpenny is still a nice option to have and he's a pretty good full-back too.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

If Kearney plays to 80% of how he played last season he will own the 15 shirt. He just offers more all round. Sexton will start 10 as well I think. Other than that I wouldn't be surprised if Gatland didn't start any other Irish players.

Kearney started last season brilliantly, and had a good season overall but so did Halfpenny. Surprised me how good he was tbh.


I expect Healy and Best to start. POC/SOB/Ferris/Heaslip/Bowe/BOD will all have a decent chance too. (I don't expect them all to start but they should all be in contention)

wicklowwonder

danthefan wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

I think Kearney is as close as you're gonna get to an out and out full-back. A bit like Sexton at 12, he can play there and "do a job", but it's not his position and it's a waste to have him there when he could be at full-back.

It's nothing like that, Kearney has dozens of starts on the wing.

When did he last play wing for Ireland or Leinster? Nacewa always seems to go wing for Leinster when both playing and Murphy always got dropped in latter years for Ireland.

Tox56

danthefan wrote: »

It's nothing like that, Kearney has dozens of starts on the wing.

I mean that in terms of yes they can play there, but they're of more use elsewhere

Podge_irl

Fireball07 wrote: »

I suppose that's true but Halfpenny is still a nice option to have and he's a pretty good full-back too.

He is indeed and I wouldn't be overly bothered if he started ahead of Kearney. I wouldn't start him on the basis of his goal-kicking though - if he starts it will be because Australia don't use as much of a kicking game and because he's slightly stronger in defence.

wicklowwonder

Fireball07 wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

Only really if Sexton doesn't start, which I really struggle to see happening.

I suppose that's true but Halfpenny is still a nice option to have and he's a pretty good full-back too.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

If Kearney plays to 80% of how he played last season he will own the 15 shirt. He just offers more all round. Sexton will start 10 as well I think. Other than that I wouldn't be surprised if Gatland didn't start any other Irish players.

Kearney started last season brilliantly, and had a good season overall but so did Halfpenny. Surprised me how good he was tbh.


I expect Healy and Best to start. POC/SOB/Ferris/Heaslip/Bowe/BOD will all have a decent chance too. (I don't expect them all to start but they should all be in contention)

Most Irish would agree but very strong cases can be put down for other players in all those positions. All 50/50 calls will fall the Welsh way if a Welsh player involved. Only natural as he will still be the Welsh manager after the tour.

Greed in me says I really hope Ferris doesn't travel the guy can barely make it through a season he needs as much rest for Ireland as possible while staying match fit.

Podge_irl

Best is miles ahead of Rees. Its impossible to know with the backrow as its so competitive but I would be surprised if there wasn't at least 1 Irish player starting in it. Sexton is almost definite and Kearney has a great chance. Beyond that there are a few possibles but nothing I'd be willing to bet too much on.

wicklowwonder

Podge_irl wrote: »

Best is miles ahead of Rees. Its impossible to know with the backrow as its so competitive but I would be surprised if there wasn't at least 1 Irish player starting in it. Sexton is almost definite and Kearney has a great chance. Beyond that there are a few possibles but nothing I'd be willing to bet too much on.

Personally I hope Best starts but Sky/British papers are all ready lining Hartley up as the hooker, I imagine done will be calling for him to captain, as biggest paymasters they can influnence selection as we have seen.

Backrow will be an immense battle but I just see the Welah getting all 50/50 calls. Atmosphere in the Welah camp wouldn't be too joyful if some of their big names fell out with Gatland over the Lions.

Podge_irl

I think the Sky influence is massively over-rated. Best is a better hooker then Hartley, end of. Hartley will probably travel but I get the impression he'd make a poor tourist. As for him being captain, not in a million and one years.

I think many things of Gatland, but him being easily swayed by public opinion is not one of them.