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British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

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    #602
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    Swiwi wrote: »
    Heaslip previously got red-carded for stamping in NZ. The one thing a Lions Captain can't do is get himself sent-off: it sends a bad message to the team + inevitably costs his side the match. I am also not sure Heaslip will be the first choice No 8 either.

    O'Driscoll or O'Connell would seem the best Irish choices for captain, although Best has his merits: but would Welsh/Scottish/English players give Best the same respect that O'Driscoll & O'Connell would have? He is less well-established than those two.

    Warburton was red carded while captain in a WC semi final. POC was also red carded for striking a player. But I dont think any of them are more of a risk than anyone else of being sent off in a test match. Heaslip as with the others are not prone to that sort of play, it was just a once off thing. So I dont see how its relevant in terms of captaining the side.


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    #603
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Swiwi wrote: »

    Heaslip previously got red-carded for stamping in NZ. The one thing a Lions Captain can't do is get himself sent-off: it sends a bad message to the team + inevitably costs his side the match. I am also not sure Heaslip will be the first choice No 8 either.

    O'Driscoll or O'Connell would seem the best Irish choices for captain, although Best has his merits: but would Welsh/Scottish/English players give Best the same respect that O'Driscoll & O'Connell would have? He is less well-established than those two.

    the sending off criteria rules out O'Connell and Warburton by the way. That's a silly comment, particularly for someone like Heaslip who has an otherwise impeccable record. I don't think he will or should be captain but still...

    Edit: beaten to it by Scioch


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    #604
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    totallegend wrote: »
    the sending off criteria rules out O'Connell and Warburton by the way. That's a silly comment, particularly for someone like Heaslip who has an otherwise impeccable record. I don't think he will or should be captain but still...

    Edit: beaten to it by Scioch

    Um, Warburton was controversially sent off for a tip-tackle. Heaslip was uncontroversially sent off for stamping on a player twice on the ground. In any case, I rather suspect Heaslip is one of those players whose playing ability is more highly regarded in Ireland than elsewhere (unlike BOD or POC, for example), and I wouldn't necessarily be shocked if he didn't make the Lions at all, particulary if he is viewed by the selectors as a specialist 8, as they are likely to only take a maximum of 2 specialist 8s, and rely on players such as SOB, who can cover 6/7/8.


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    #605
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Swiwi wrote: »
    Um, Warburton was controversially sent off for a tip-tackle. Heaslip was uncontroversially sent off for stamping on a player twice on the ground. In any case, I rather suspect Heaslip is one of those players whose playing ability is more highly regarded in Ireland than elsewhere (unlike BOD or POC, for example), and I wouldn't necessarily be shocked if he didn't make the Lions at all, particulary if he is viewed by the selectors as a specialist 8, as they are likely to only take a maximum of 2 specialist 8s, and rely on players such as SOB, who can cover 6/7/8.

    You mean Jamie Heaslip who was previously nominated for IRB Player Of The Year is overrated in Ireland?


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    #606
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    You mean Jamie Heaslip who was previously nominated for IRB Player Of The Year is overrated in Ireland?

    In my opinion, yes. For starters, I think Parisse & Harinordoquy would be more highly rated, certainly by Southern Hemisphere teams. Obviously, neither are eligible for the Lions.

    The proof will be in the pudding - when English newspapers, and Planetrugby, and ESPN etc name provisional Lions teams, it will be interesting to see how prominently Heaslip features.

    (From memory last year peri-6N, even some Irish fans were questioning his automatic right to the Irish 8 jersey - luckily he has his staunch supporter in Gerry Thornley...). I'm not saying he's bad player, far from it, but I don't think he's an automatic Lions pick.


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    #607
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Swiwi wrote: »
    In my opinion, yes. For starters, I think Parisse & Harinordoquy would be more highly rated, certainly by Southern Hemisphere teams. Obviously, neither are eligible for the Lions.

    The proof will be in the pudding - when English newspapers, and Planetrugby, and ESPN etc name provisional Lions teams, it will be interesting to see how prominently Heaslip features.

    He started all 3 tests in 2009 and wasn't under much pressure. Who has emerged at 8 since then? Ben Morgan or Toby Faletau? They're not on the same level.


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    #608
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Swiwi wrote: »
    In my opinion, yes. For starters, I think Parisse & Harinordoquy would be more highly rated, certainly by Southern Hemisphere teams. Obviously, neither are eligible for the Lions.

    The proof will be in the pudding - when English newspapers, and Planetrugby, and ESPN etc name provisional Lions teams, it will be interesting to see how prominently Heaslip features.

    Well you run into a bit of a problem here. You're saying Heaslip is more highly rated in Ireland than elsewhere basically as a result of national bias, but it then follows that the English are going to rate their options higher also as a result of national bias.

    The proof will come when the squad is announced and then the test sides are announced.
    Swiwi wrote: »
    (From memory last year peri-6N, even some Irish fans were questioning his automatic right to the Irish 8 jersey - luckily he has his staunch supporter in Gerry Thornley...). I'm not saying he's bad player, far from it, but I don't think he's an automatic Lions pick.

    At the risk of starting an inter-provincial spat - basically every single person questioning him was a Munster supporter who wanted POM in the side. They went very quiet after Heaslip missed the 60-0 game in which POM started at 8. Heaslip is incontrovertibly the best 8 in Ireland by a very large margin.


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    #609
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    He started all 3 tests in 2009 and wasn't under much pressure. Who has emerged at 8 since then? Ben Morgan or Toby Faletau? They're not on the same level.

    Well, we will both look forward to this year's 6N, and if Heaslip comes out on top, I will freely acknowledge his place on the Lions team.


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    #610
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Swiwi wrote: »
    In my opinion, yes. For starters, I think Parisse & Harinordoquy would be more highly rated, certainly by Southern Hemisphere teams. Obviously, neither are eligible for the Lions.

    The proof will be in the pudding - when English newspapers, and Planetrugby, and ESPN etc name provisional Lions teams, it will be interesting to see how prominently Heaslip features.

    That will be proof of nothing. Those sites are gimmicks with a serious lack of depth. I fully expect Ben Morgan and Thomas Waldrom to feature heavily in those sides after scoring a couple of tries against London Welsh and/or Italy.

    Heaslip may not be rated down there but he's a shoe in for the Lions and it would be a massive shock for him not to tour. He is head and shoulders above all contenders in terms of consistency and all round ability.


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    #611
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    danthefan wrote: »
    Well you run into a bit of a problem here. You're saying Heaslip is more highly rated in Ireland than elsewhere basically as a result of national bias, but it then follows that the English are going to rate their options higher also as a result of national bias.

    The proof will come when the squad is announced and then the test sides are announced.

    It always happens, which is why I also cited Planetrugby (predominantly SA-owned as far as I am aware) and ESPN. But as you say, the squad and starting 15 selections will settle the debate.


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    #612
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Swiwi wrote: »
    It always happens, which is why I also cited Planetrugby (predominantly SA-owned as far as I am aware) and ESPN. But as you say, the squad and starting 15 selections will settle the debate.

    The quality of rugby journalism on PR is... erratic. To say the least.


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    #613
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    GerM wrote: »
    That will be proof of nothing. Those sites are gimmicks with a serious lack of depth. I fully expect Ben Morgan and Thomas Waldrom to feature heavily in those sides after scoring a couple of tries against London Welsh and/or Italy.

    Heaslip may not be rated down there but he's a shoe in for the Lions and it would be a massive shock for him not to tour. He is head and shoulders above all contenders in terms of consistency and all round ability.

    We will agree to disagree. Good player, but I personally would not be shocked if he misses Lions selection. In saying that, there is still a lot of water to flow under the 6N bridge, and I could be proved utterly wrong.


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    #614
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    danthefan wrote: »
    The quality of rugby journalism on PR is... erratic. To say the least.

    You're missing my point! I'm not commentating on the quality of those sites or not, I'm commenting that outside of Ireland he may not make everyone's automatic Lions selections.


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    #615
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Swiwi wrote: »
    You're missing my point! I'm not commentating on the quality of those sites or not, I'm commenting that outside of Ireland he may not make everyone's automatic Lions selections.

    I don't really care tbh. He is going to make the squad.


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    #616
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    danthefan wrote: »
    I don't really care tbh. He is going to make the squad.

    I'm sure you're right. Let's hope these posts don't come back to haunt us ;)


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    #617
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    danthefan wrote: »
    Well you run into a bit of a problem here. You're saying Heaslip is more highly rated in Ireland than elsewhere basically as a result of national bias, but it then follows that the English are going to rate their options higher also as a result of national bias.

    The proof will come when the squad is announced and then the test sides are announced.



    At the risk of starting an inter-provincial spat - basically every single person questioning him was a Munster supporter who wanted POM in the side. They went very quiet after Heaslip missed the 60-0 game in which POM started at 8. Heaslip is incontrovertibly the best 8 in Ireland by a very large margin.

    On that I agree. Although, I wouldn't mind seeing SOB get a run at 8.


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    #618
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Swiwi wrote: »
    You're missing my point! I'm not commentating on the quality of those sites or not, I'm commenting that outside of Ireland he may not make everyone's automatic Lions selections.

    You can't take notice of any print journalism here in the buildup to the Lions. Stephen Jones last time out said O'Driscoll shouldn't tour and Dan Hipkiss should. It becomes a joke.

    Here is a Welsh journalists opinion of Sexton for 10!
    Irishman Jonny Sexton is most people’s favourite at present and, on the balance of form in the last year or so, that’s probably fair enough.

    When he inspired his province Leinster to one of the greatest Heineken Cup final comebacks in history against Northampton at the Millennium Stadium a couple of seasons ago, you’d have said he was nailed on to be Lions first choice.

    But Sexton’s not really built on that for my money. He is steady enough and produces flashes of real class, but he’s still prone to concentration lapses and isn’t going to cause Wallaby coach Robbie Deans any sleepless nights.

    Supposedly Hook is the ideal selection at 10!


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    #619
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    You can't take notice of any print journalism here in the buildup to the Lions. Stephen Jones last time out said O'Driscoll shouldn't tour and Dan Hipkiss should. It becomes a joke.

    Here is a Welsh journalists opinion of Sexton for 10!



    Supposedly Hook is the ideal selection at 10!

    If you're referring to Stephen Jones, that pseudo-English journalist, you know he has no good word to say about either NZ or Ireland. Hook is jack-of-all-trades and master of none, and I would definitely have Sexton as my first choice ten.


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    #620
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    End of the day journalism has shít all to do with selection. Gatland is no fool, Heaslip will be touring.


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    #621
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Priestland has to be out of the running, he's been really poor for Wales and Scarlets. You've got Flood, Laidlaw and Sexton left really. Has to be Sexton out of that group.


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    #622
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    Scioch wrote: »
    End of the day journalism has shít all to do with selection. Gatland is no fool, Heaslip will be touring.

    As does people posting on boards.ie...


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    #623
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Swiwi wrote: »
    If you're referring to Stephen Jones, that pseudo-English journalist, you know he has no good word to say about either NZ or Ireland. Hook is jack-of-all-trades and master of none, and I would definitely have Sexton as my first choice ten.

    Well that excerpt was a different welsh journalist.

    Heaslip is a superb player. If you've seen Leinster in the Heineken Cup so far you'll know what an excellent back row forward he is. There isn't anyone else in Britain who is on his level at the moment. The only other options are Morgan and Faletau... Morgan has been pretty useless recently and Faletau will be lucky to tour at all. On the level below that guys like Denton and Easter have humongous holes in their game and are barely international standard.


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    #624
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    Swiwi wrote: »
    As does people posting on boards.ie...

    I dont see anyone arguing that boards posts is reflective of any players chance of being selected though.

    This all started with you arguing that Heaslip wasnt rated highly enough outside Ireland to be captain and that he might not even tour at all.

    PlanetRugby and English newspapers wont be a reflection of Gatlands thinking. It will be a reflection of their own thinking. Gatland will be doing the selecting and I cant see him leaving out Heaslip.


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    #625
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    Scioch wrote: »
    I dont see anyone arguing that boards posts is reflective of any players chance of being selected though.

    This all started with you arguing that Heaslip wasnt rated highly enough outside Ireland to be captain and that he might not even tour at all.

    PlanetRugby and English newspapers wont be a reflection of Gatlands thinking. It will be a reflection of their own thinking. Gatland will be doing the selecting and I cant see him leaving out Heaslip.

    Heaslip won't be captain, but I am fairly certain he will tour, like you all have said (and I would have no objections!). However, I would not be shocked either if he wasn't selected. Shocking for me would be leaving Cian Healy at home.


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    #626
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,282 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    As we know, pressure will be put on to take certain players.

    Common sence would dictate he takes most of the leinster team right? as well as most of the welsh internationals.

    My biggest problem is the players that will miss out as he is forced to take the like of tualagi and ashton. In fact he will be forced to fit english players into the starting team.


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    #627
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Ashton should travel based on form alone at this point in time.


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    #628
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    twinytwo wrote: »
    As we know, pressure will be put on to take certain players.

    Common sence would dictate he takes most of the leinster team right? as well as most of the welsh internationals.

    My biggest problem is the players that will miss out as he is forced to take the like of tualagi and ashton. In fact he will be forced to fit english players into the starting team.

    Um, some of the English players are actually half-decent. I expect a handful will demand selection on form alone, and I don't see a no-nonsense Kiwi like Gatland giving in to pressure to choose x number of players from each country.


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    #629
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    danthefan wrote: »


    At the risk of starting an inter-provincial spat - basically every single person questioning him was a Munster supporter who wanted POM in the side. They went very quiet after Heaslip missed the 60-0 game in which POM started at 8. Heaslip is incontrovertibly the best 8 in Ireland by a very large margin.

    Most Munster fans don't want POM playing 8 for us, nevermind Ireland. I don't recall anyone calling for POM ahead of Heaslip at 8. And I don't really think POM is in anyway more to blame for that loss than the other 14 on the field that day so very unfair to single him out.

    There were plenty wrongly questioning Heaslip's last year, Leinster fans included.


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    #630
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Swiwi wrote: »
    Um, some of the English players are actually half-decent. I expect a handful will demand selection on form alone, and I don't see a no-nonsense Kiwi like Gatland giving in to pressure to choose x number of players from each country.

    A better selection this time than last time for sure. Ugo Monye started the first Test on the last tour. Harry Ellis was on the bench.

    Gatland as forwards coach must have had something to say about starting Phil Vickery ahead of Adam Jones on the last tour. And they really took their time taking Vickery off as well.


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    #631
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Swiwi wrote: »
    Um, some of the English players are actually half-decent. I expect a handful will demand selection on form alone, and I don't see a no-nonsense Kiwi like Gatland giving in to pressure to choose x number of players from each country.

    Spot on chief. I would expect Hartley, Cole, Sheridan (pending release from Toulon), Robshaw, Care, Youngs, Flood, Ashton and Foden to be very much in the mix when it comes to squad announcement. Steffon Armitage should be in there on form alone but there may be other issues at play.

    In relation to Gatland not giving in to pressure, I don't think that will be an issue for England; the more pressing issue would be inclusion of token Scots so let's hope Gray, Denton, Hogg and Visser have a good 6N and stay fit.

    On the other hand, you would hope that Gatland doesn't go too far the other way and give too much preference to the guys he's most familiar with, i.e Wales...


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